The Official Street Fighter 6 thread! We Open world fighting now?!

[feelosofer]

I like that Capcom is taking some risks with this game. They are clearly listening to the criticisms of SFV (which has gotten a lot better in fairness). You can tell the people are having fun making this game. This game will be fire.

 

[O.Red]

Well if your a tournament player you'll be playing offline anyway.

SF players have been wanting to bring execution back to the series for a long time now, they have been saying the game has been dumbed down enough, and frankly I agree

And regarding that Guile comment, I think so, considering that he's a character that is charge and only has 2 moves, every other character gets shiny new moves, you might as well give him other utilities to make up for that

When has SF been without execution?

Sf4, for as bad as it is, execution requirements were ridiculous. NOBODY enjoyed doing 1 frame links

And yes the strictest link in SF5 is 3 frames but nikkas overblow that into SF5 having ABC combos. This is false

SF5 got some hard ass combos. Can you do optimal Menat combos? Consistent TK inputs just to operate Dhalsim? Abigail's double back HP link is so hard EVERY Abigail stopped doing it. Even Itabashi

And there are just frames in SF5. Karin's instant Tenko is a just frame input. Dan has a just frame. And so on

 

[The Mad Titan]

I won't argue with you thinking the game feels restrained. It's a common complaint. But while this criticism has credence I think there is a larger issue with fighting games in recent years

Fighting game players have gotten too smart and don't realize it. Since twitter, YouTube, and the initial hype of SF5 the general skill level of fighting game players has risen and it's affected the way we play them. We learn 2 years worth of a game in a week now and that rapid development snowballs like it never has before

We're in an era where anybody off the street could know all the frames, optimal punishes, oki, etc for their characters. This has made everything look a lot more rigid than previous generations.

This is where SF5 angers a lot of people in a way they haven't been able to articulate. SF5 is a lot like chess. If you know less than your opponent you lose. It's extremely heavy on knowledge. This is a turn off to a player that might've gotten by on instinct in previous generations. The most enjoyable fighting games are more like poker, where skill level definitely matters, but there's an element of chance that makes the game unpredictable. This level of chance is nearly absent in SF5, and THATS where it lost so many people in terms of gameplay. It's arguably the hardest SF game there is

There's a deeper discussion about the evolution of turns and spacing in current fighting games that also lends to your point, but the brunt of this frustration has been laid at the feet of SF5 when it's a genre wide issue. Guilty Gear Strive has the same problem (WORSE in my opinion)

I tried not to write a fukkin article but

I actually completely agree with you and have said the same thing to long time friends that are sour on fighters now.

I've told them over and over it's not just that fighters are easier yes, but also the crowd is larger and the information is abundant.

When I was going to arcade tournaments and traveling for the 2 or 3 majors they had a year it was super clear who was great good ok and bad.

Mostly because like you said it was all a knowledge check, and if not a knowledge check it was a execution check. So old heads felt a lot better with the actual limited knowledge they aquired over say 2-3 years and that knowledge crushed all bad and ok players you could even still some rounds from good players.


But now...

Week one a bad player with good execution can YouTube optimal combos only be good at that and give "better" players over the blues.


A lot of my homes hate on newer games when really it's just them and the times.


A platinum/diamond ranked player in SF5 is equivalent to 40 percent of what we played in the arcades and in our local scene. The rest being like silver and a couple grandmasters.

 

[CarltonJunior]

When has SF been without execution?

Sf4, for as bad as it is, execution requirements were ridiculous. NOBODY enjoyed doing 1 frame links

And yes the strictest link in SF5 is 3 frames but nikkas overblow that into SF5 having ABC combos. This is false

SF5 got some hard ass combos. Can you do optimal Menat combos? Consistent TK inputs just to operate Dhalsim? Abigail's double back HP link is so hard EVERY Abigail stopped doing it. Even Itabashi

And there are just frames in SF5. Karin's instant Tenko is a just frame input. Dan has a just frame. And so on

I do agree with you actually, and you made a great post earlier, my complaint is less about the execution itself and more about how little individuality players have in SF5 with it's current execution level vs previous years.

Before, in SF4, you could have 2 dudleys play entirely different from each other dependent on their execution level, that's what made smug stand out and set him apart from the rest. You wouldn't even dare attempt some of the combos he did a lot of the time because you were too afraid of dropping something during a big event. Execution variety existed to get players who couldn't do certain stuff to still be effective.

In SF5 2 balrogs whether a pro or not plays exactly the same, same BnBs and all, just one may have better neutral and know when to press buttons better due to frame data.

You already addressed this in a previous post, I just didn't articulate in that particular post I made which created this argument. I do believe that having more moves like the just frame boom will help create more variety in gameplay

 

[Batsute]

I do agree with you actually, and you made a great post earlier, my complaint is less about the execution itself and more about how little individuality players have in SF5 with it's current execution level vs previous years.

Before, in SF4, you could have 2 dudleys play entirely different from each other dependent on their execution level, that's what made smug stand out and set him apart from the rest. You wouldn't even dare attempt some of the combos he did a lot of the time because you were too afraid of dropping something during a big event. Execution variety existed to get players who couldn't do certain stuff to still be effective.

In SF5 2 balrogs whether a pro or not plays exactly the same, same BnBs and all, just one may have better neutral and know when to press buttons better due to frame data.

You already addressed this in a previous post, I just didn't articulate in that particular post I made which created this argument. I do believe that having more moves like the just frame boom will help create more variety in gameplay

The romanticization of that game is downright disgusting, and people blatantly ignore and switch shyt up for their own narrative. I’ll give it props for reviving the genre but that game was not some holy grail of expression. SF4 was literally optimization and setplay. FADC made damn near everything in that safe and this wanting of 1 frame links was disingenuous cause everyone plinked. Let’s not even talk about the vortex. People fall back on that expression argument as a crutch to say, “you won’t let me do what I want”, when what they really want to say is, “all my options that used to be safe were removed and now I hate that I have to commit.”

You can t even mention another Dudley player who was so different from smug. To your point about expression I could tell apart Caba’ guile is totally different from Daigo’s same with Krone’s and Idom’s Laura, shyt Wong and Sako’s Menat we’re basically to different characters.

SFxT post patches was a better game when it came to “expression”

 

[Volt]

I do agree with you actually, and you made a great post earlier, my complaint is less about the execution itself and more about how little individuality players have in SF5 with it's current execution level vs previous years

I agree with that, but not because of the execution. The neutral game in SFV is just not fun.

Take SFIV Akuma for example. It wasn't his best option, but you could play a little more defensive to draw out an turtling opponent with his air fireballs and red fireball.

In V, his air fireball is restricted to forward jumps, so its use is now restricted to a get in tool.

This doesn't seem to be the case in SF6 though. Returning vets got new moves, hitboxes match the animations (like Ryu's Cr. MK actually hitting people with his foot).

6 is already shaping up to be much better than 5 ever was.

 

[O.Red]

I do agree with you actually, and you made a great post earlier, my complaint is less about the execution itself and more about how little individuality players have in SF5 with it's current execution level vs previous years.

Before, in SF4, you could have 2 dudleys play entirely different from each other dependent on their execution level, that's what made smug stand out and set him apart from the rest. You wouldn't even dare attempt some of the combos he did a lot of the time because you were too afraid of dropping something during a big event. Execution variety existed to get players who couldn't do certain stuff to still be effective.

In SF5 2 balrogs whether a pro or not plays exactly the same, same BnBs and all, just one may have better neutral and know when to press buttons better due to frame data.

You already addressed this in a previous post, I just didn't articulate in that particular post I made which created this argument. I do believe that having more moves like the just frame boom will help create more variety in gameplay

Yea it's true that SF5 had a problem with individuality. It's gets much better in later seasons with more characters (Uriens are a great example they all have different styles)

One of the major issues with 5 (and even worse with Guilty Gear Strive) is that rigidity that came from stripping the game down to the basics. The frame data is set up to where "Aight you nikkas have these openings and these routes. If you get THIS knockdown you have these 2-3 options"

This rigidity plus my earlier comment about fighting game players being smarter and more educated than ever equals a game where math and momentum are God. That's why I liken SF5 to chess.

This is the case with all fighting games but the equalizer is what I call the "fukk you" option. Every fighting game needs fukk you options. 5 frustrates people because when you're being overwhelmed by your opponents algorithm there's no "nah fukk you get off me" option. They made this even worse by nerfing dp. SF6 CLEARLY appears to be trying to change this with all them gatdamn defensive options

I clearly love SF5, but the validity of the lack of expression complaint is real and I understand why some people left it behind

 

[O.Red]

The romanticization of that game is downright disgusting, and people blatantly ignore and switch shyt up for their own narrative. I’ll give it props for reviving the genre but that game was not some holy grail of expression. SF4 was literally optimization and setplay. FADC made damn near everything in that safe and this wanting of 1 frame links was disingenuous cause everyone plinked. Let’s not even talk about the vortex. People fall back on that expression argument as a crutch to say, “you won’t let me do what I want”, when what they really want to say is, “all my options that used to be safe were removed and now I hate that I have to commit.”

You can t even mention another Dudley player who was so different from smug. To your point about expression I could tell apart Caba’ guile is totally different from Daigo’s same with Krone’s and Idom’s Laura, shyt Wong and Sako’s Menat we’re basically to different characters.

SFxT post patches was a better game when it came to “expression”

I don't think he's romanticizing 4. He does have a point

SF4 does have a bit more expressive elements but it comes in the form of combos that ultimately no one enjoyed doing

1 frame links allowed for a lot of player expression (Sako's Evil Ryu combo for example) but the trade off is nobody really wanna do that hard ass shyt. Challenging is one thing but nikkas got shyt to do

i think 5 removing so many normals hurt the game a bit. They fixed this later by giving character's more command normals that switched the neutral up a bit.

 

[Volt]

The frame data is set up to where "Aight you nikkas have these openings and these routes. If you get THIS knockdown you have these 2-3 options"

Exactly.

That's why I'm saying it's not an execution problem. Execution gates would end up with the same problem tbh.

The problem is a lack of decision-making during the match. You just don't have options to tackle problems in different ways unless you change characters.

 

[CarltonJunior]

The romanticization of that game is downright disgusting, and people blatantly ignore and switch shyt up for their own narrative. I’ll give it props for reviving the genre but that game was not some holy grail of expression. SF4 was literally optimization and setplay. FADC made damn near everything in that safe and this wanting of 1 frame links was disingenuous cause everyone plinked. Let’s not even talk about the vortex. People fall back on that expression argument as a crutch to say, “you won’t let me do what I want”, when what they really want to say is, “all my options that used to be safe were removed and now I hate that I have to commit.”

You can t even mention another Dudley player who was so different from smug. To your point about expression I could tell apart Caba’ guile is totally different from Daigo’s same with Krone’s and Idom’s Laura, shyt Wong and Sako’s Menat we’re basically to different characters.

SFxT post patches was a better game when it came to “expression”

Exactly.

That's why I'm saying it's not an execution problem. Execution gates would end up with the same problem tbh.

The problem is a lack of decision-making during the match. You just don't have options to tackle problems in different ways unless you change characters.

I think we're all agreeing with each other in different ways. You're right also, but I think execution is an added ingredient.

I liken it to basketball. Anybody can shoot a jumpshot, and a made jumpshot is worth 2 or 3 points no matter who shot it. But all jumpshots aren't made equal, everyone shoots a jumpshot differently from each other, and the degree of difficulty on that jumpshot varies wildly. Some people often pass on a tough 3 for an easier 2, some people always take the 3, some people don't shoot at all and go for layups, etc.

In SF5 I felt like we didn't see as many people have that variance because the execution barrier wasn't as much of a factor. You'll take the optimal, big damage large combo if you have the meter and land it more often than not. In earlier games you might have been more fearful of a drop and took a quick guaranteed hit confirm into sizable damage instead.

But you all are right in that execution is not the only reason why SF5 lacks expression and individuality, I just feel that it was part of the equation. I wasn't trying to romanticize 4, it was just an off top example I could think of in my head

 

[CarltonJunior]

Yea it's true that SF5 had a problem with individuality. It's gets much better in later seasons with more characters (Uriens are a great example they all have different styles)

One of the major issues with 5 (and even worse with Guilty Gear Strive) is that rigidity that came from stripping the game down to the basics. The frame data is set up to where "Aight you nikkas have these openings and these routes. If you get THIS knockdown you have these 2-3 options"

This rigidity plus my earlier comment about fighting game players being smarter and more educated than ever equals a game where math and momentum are God. That's why I liken SF5 to chess.

This is the case with all fighting games but the equalizer is what I call the "fukk you" option. Every fighting game needs fukk you options. 5 frustrates people because when you're being overwhelmed by your opponents algorithm there's no "nah fukk you get off me" option. They made this even worse by nerfing dp. SF6 CLEARLY appears to be trying to change this with all them gatdamn defensive options

I clearly love SF5, but the validity of the lack of expression complaint is real and I understand why some people left it behind

100% agreed

And to @Volt 's credit didn't help that a lot of footsies and neutral were nerfed and slowed down. I'm a lifelong bison main and couldn't play him in 5 because he turned into this frametrap combo character instead being the traditional footsies king that he is normally. It's like they treated the neutral like cancer.

 

[Blackfyre]

 

[Volt]

That's a good ass theme. Maybe not for Ryu, but I really like it.

100% agreed

And to @Volt 's credit didn't help that a lot of footsies and neutral were nerfed and slowed down. I'm a lifelong bison main and couldn't play him in 5 because he turned into this frametrap combo character instead being the traditional footsies king that he is normally. It's like they treated the neutral like cancer.

Bro, what they did to Ryu was straight up malpractice.

I think we're all agreeing with each other in different ways.

And the best part is that SF6 so far seems to be addressing everything we're saying about 5.

 

[datnigDASTARDLY]

Capcom restoring that 3rd strike, CvS, Mahvel feeling

 

[ColdSlither]

I haven't played anything SF since SF4. I played some of 5, but I wasn't feeling it, and chose not to buy it. And other than Dragon Ball Fighterz and one of the Guilty Gears, I haven't been playing any fighting games in general. SF6 looks like it's going to be fun though, and different, and I can't wait to play it.