The Official Israel-Gaza Thread

[King Kreole]

What specific proposal? She made a generalized post about the idea of a two state solution being unfair to the Palestinians. Please link the specific proposal she’s referencing if there is something I missed

The specific proposal of one state for Israelis and one state for Palestinians. The most common iteration of this proposal is for those two "states" to be drawn along 1967 borders, with perhaps some minor land swaps here and there. This formulation is a very familiar concept to those who have been paying attention to this conflict, and every version of it that has been seriously put forth has the same structural inequities for Palestinians that Emma is referencing.

Unfortunately geopolitics doesn’t work on the 2 year old goo goo gaga that’s not fair logic. Israel is a nuclear armed state with the backing of the largest economic power on the planet and increasingly normalizing relations with its only potential competitors in the region

Egypt's exports to Israel double in 2024, UAE and Jordan exports also surge

Meanwhile, Turkish exports dropped by more than a half amid global calls for boycotting Israel over its Gaza offensive

www.middleeasteye.net

Of course politics doesn't solely operate on the framework of justice, equality and fairness. In fact, it rarely does. The goal of activism isn't to capitulate to the procrustean framework that the entrenched power sets out as "reality", but rather to shift that reality in accordance with moral principles such as justice, equality and fairness in pursuit of a better world.

The 1SS has about the same validity and hurdles as reparations for slavery, but I'm sure you would refer to calls for that as "goo goo gaga that's not fair logic" as well.

Palestines goal should be building a functioning state first with economic partners above UN charities and Hesbollah. People need to grow up a little an actually work towards achievable solutions.

I wonder what you consider growing up a little and working towards achievable solutions? Because in this conflict, it has been the Palestinians that have been the more accommodating and magnanimous side in this regard, with even Hamas advocating for the establishment of a Palestinian state along 1967 borders. The Israelis have thwarted this solution in favor of a single apartheid state. And it's kind of difficult to build a functioning state when you are denied the basic materials for one by your occupier who periodically comes in to kidnap and murder your people to keep your society destabilized.

This is not two equal sides being intransigent about coming to a solution. There is a vast power imbalance in this conflict that makes one side more responsible for the status quo than the other. The Israelis have never offered the Palestinians a state. And the idea that Palestinians need to audition to prove they are worthy of self-governance while being occupied for decades is deeply disgraceful.

 

[voiture]

She's clearly referring to the specific proposal of a two state solution for Israel and Palestine, not the general notion of two states, so your examples of other countries are irrelevant.

I wouldn't use the word apartheid to describe the two state solution, but her direction is correct. The two state solution (for Israel and Palestine) is a fundamentally unjust concept cooked up in the West as a lazy throwaway to appear serious-minded about solving this issue while in reality just being a distraction from dealing with the systemic, fundamental problem at the heart of this conflict. It's obvious how bullshyt the two state solution is when you propose to its proponents the idea of swapping which people get which state. The racism at the core of the ruse roils over.

Palestinians have to take what they can get. Arabs already went to war and lost on their behalf.
Israel gets to dictate the terms here...take it or leave it.
If they keep up the violence very soon there won't be anything to negotiate over.

 

[FAH1223]

What specific proposal? She made a generalized post about the idea of a two state solution being unfair to the Palestinians. Please link the specific proposal she’s referencing if there is something I missed



Unfortunately geopolitics doesn’t work on the 2 year old goo goo gaga that’s not fair logic. Israel is a nuclear armed state with the backing of the largest economic power on the planet and increasingly normalizing relations with its only potential competitors in the region

Egypt's exports to Israel double in 2024, UAE and Jordan exports also surge

Meanwhile, Turkish exports dropped by more than a half amid global calls for boycotting Israel over its Gaza offensive

www.middleeasteye.net

Palestines goal should be building a functioning state first with economic partners above UN charities and Hesbollah. People need to grow up a little an actually work towards achievable solutions.

Palestinians have to take what they can get. Arabs already went to war and lost on their behalf.
Israel gets to dictate the terms here...take it or leave it.
If they keep up the violence very soon there won't be anything to negotiate over.

Just annex the whole thing, guys. That's what you want.

 

[King Kreole]

Palestinians have to take what they can get. Arabs already went to war and lost on their behalf.
Israel gets to dictate the terms here...take it or leave it.
If they keep up the violence very soon there won't be anything to negotiate over.

Damn y'all nikkas bytch-hearted. Palestinians don't "have" to do anything, and this defeatist logic is completely morally and intellectually bankrupt. It's Israel that "has" to end its illegal occupation according to international law and society. Israel is right now in its weakest position vis-a-vis international legitimacy since its inception, so the idea that they can just finish their genocide with impunity until "there isn't anything to negotiate over" if the Palestinians don't jump for joy and tap dance with a smile while accepting the non-state bullshyt slice of their land that was stolen from them within living memory is playing into the common Zionist propaganda trope of Israeli invincibility and inherent infallibility.

Israel's TikTok army full of 19 year old Major Generals that get domed by Palestinian barbers and Yemeni shoe salesmen ain't scaring people anymore. Hezbollah just pulled up and took a massive shyt on their doorstep. Netanyahu acting like a crackhead saying America isn't doing enough to support them while desperately trying America into WW3. These mfs been living off the reputational strength of Krav Maga and Operation Entebbe for like 40 years. People around the world are waking up and realizing that Israel is a paper tiger.

 

[Pressure]

Just annex the whole thing, guys. That's what you want.

Aren’t in favor of a one state solution?

Doesn’t that involve annexing the whole thing and giving them citizenship?

We all agree that a 2 state solution is practically dead at this point. Or have you pivoted back to that?

 

[FAH1223]

Aren’t in favor of a one state solution?

Doesn’t that involve annexing the whole thing and giving them citizenship?

We all agree that a 2 state solution is practically dead at this point. Or have you pivoted back to that?

Yep

 

[Mister Terrific]

The specific proposal of one state for Israelis and one state for Palestinians. The most common iteration of this proposal is for those two "states" to be drawn along 1967 borders, with perhaps some minor land swaps here and there. This formulation is a very familiar concept to those who have been paying attention to this conflict, and every version of it that has been seriously put forth has the same structural inequities for Palestinians that Emma is referencing.

There have been multiple versions of the two state solution. Can you outline specifically what’s unfair and in what version? Here is Hamas’ charter.

2017 Hamas charter - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is altogether reasonable. Only points really remaining is mutual recognition of both parties and right of return limited to Palestines borders.

Can you point out what’s unfair about what even Hamas is wiling to accept?

Of course politics doesn't solely operate on the framework of justice, equality and fairness. In fact, it rarely does. The goal of activism isn't to capitulate to the procrustean framework that the entrenched power sets out as "reality", but rather to shift that reality in accordance with moral principles such as justice, equality and fairness in pursuit of a better world.

Activism has never won a war. Especially not your “if I tweet Zionist 100 times a day Palestine will be free” version of activism. Palestine doesn’t have the military backing to improve its position on the negotiating table nor does Israel have any reason or pressure to alter its course. All Palestine can do is take a reasonably amenable position so as to appear as the sane side of the conflict to generate international support.

The 1SS has about the same validity and hurdles as reparations for slavery, but I'm sure you would refer to calls for that as "goo goo gaga that's not fair logic" as well.

Ridiculous comparison. Black Americans have legal representation within the United States and various non-violent means of achieving reparations. I don’t particularly think it’s anywhere soon but I’m sure it will be explored heavily by individual states and legislatures. Palestine has no such representation. It doesn’t have the military might is subjugate Israel nor the economic and political backing to enforce a settlement.

I wonder what you consider growing up a little and working towards achievable solutions? Because in this conflict, it has been the Palestinians that have been the more accommodating and magnanimous side in this regard, with even Hamas advocating for the establishment of a Palestinian state along 1967 borders. The Israelis have thwarted this solution in favor of a single apartheid state. And it's kind of difficult to build a functioning state when you are denied the basic materials for one by your occupier who periodically comes in to kidnap and murder your people to keep your society destabilized.

Claiming the Palestinians are being magnanimous is like claiming the Japanese in 1945 were being magnanimous in accepting the Potsdam declaration. The only thing preventing their complete eradication is the good will of the international community putting pressure on Israel. Otherwise they would find the same result as the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh or Masalit of Sudan.

Hamas and Palestine should accept their position as the disadvantaged party and come to terms that guarantee the continued existence of its state. Otherwise with the Middle East rapidly normalizing relations with Israel their only lifeline may be quickly fading.

This is not two equal sides being intransigent about coming to a solution. There is a vast power imbalance in this conflict that makes one side more responsible for the status quo than the other. The Israelis have never offered the Palestinians a state. And the idea that Palestinians need to audition to prove they are worthy of self-governance while being occupied for decades is deeply disgraceful.

 

[Mister Terrific]

Damn y'all nikkas bytch-hearted. Palestinians don't "have" to do anything, and this defeatist logic is completely morally and intellectually bankrupt. It's Israel that "has" to end its illegal occupation according to international law and society. Israel is right now in its weakest position vis-a-vis international legitimacy since its inception, so the idea that they can just finish their genocide with impunity until "there isn't anything to negotiate over" if the Palestinians don't jump for joy and tap dance with a smile while accepting the non-state bullshyt slice of their land that was stolen from them within living memory is playing into the common Zionist propaganda trope of Israeli invincibility and inherent infallibility.

Israel's TikTok army full of 19 year old Major Generals that get domed by Palestinian barbers and Yemeni shoe salesmen ain't scaring people anymore. Hezbollah just pulled up and took a massive shyt on their doorstep. Netanyahu acting like a crackhead saying America isn't doing enough to support them while desperately trying America into WW3. These mfs been living off the reputational strength of Krav Maga and Operation Entebbe for like 40 years. People around the world are waking up and realizing that Israel is a paper tiger.

 

[Mister Terrific]

Just annex the whole thing, guys. That's what you want.

I want a two state solution so both people can live in dignity. If I was God I’d go back in time and prevent the formation of Israel. If I was God I’d go back in time and arm the people of Palestine and tell them not to flee not matter what the Israelis do to them.

I’m not God and we have to operate on pragmatism and realism. This isn’t Haiti in 1790 or South Africa in 1980 where the oppressed outnumbered their oppressor 10-1 and all that was required was organization and political will. This is a defeated people living in a blockade that is surrounded by a far lot powerful and numerous states with zero meaningful international backing besides thoughts and prayers and Ireland going up and calling Netanyahu a fakkit or the Maldives saying Israeli’s can’t sunbathe there.

Are we going to take a realistic approach to this conflict or are we going to live in a fantasy of delusion that the liberation of Palestine just requires a few more dead hippy girls and 30,000 more dead Palestinians?

 

[Dafunkdoc_Unlimited]

2-State Solution won't work and is a fantasy that needs to end. It had a slim chance but was destroyed on October 7. Even if it were to come to fruition, it'd just be another failed State among the dozen or so that already exist in the Middle East.​

 

[88m3]

Just annex the whole thing, guys. That's what you want.

What do you think a reasonable compromise would be? What could permanently end hostilities between both parties or at least the Palestinian groups?

Like practical things. Not say the Jews converting to Islam or vice versa or even say banning religion...

No more Palestinians in refugees camps across the Arab world being exploited and mistreated. Positive permanent solutions for the Palestinian people.

 

[King Kreole]

There have been multiple versions of the two state solution. Can you outline specifically what’s unfair and in what version?

Well first of all, there has never been an actual Palestinian state offered in any of these negotiations or discourse around the two state solution. It's always been, as Rabin called it, "less than a state". There has never been a version of the two state solution accepted by the US and Israel in which the proposed Palestinian state is granted equally valuable land or borders or even the full, requisite features of an autonomous state (ie their own military, full control over their borders and airspace, territorial contiguity, etc). The Western Liberals who cooked this idea up don't believe in the core of the Palestinian claims and cause, so they threw this bullshyt together and think the Palestinians should be grateful for the scraps.

Here is Hamas’ charter.

2017 Hamas charter - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This is altogether reasonable. Only points really remaining is mutual recognition of both parties and right of return limited to Palestines borders.

Can you point out what’s unfair about what even Hamas is wiling to accept?

As I said before, the Palestinians have been incredibly magnanimous to even entertain their national aspirations being shunted to the ghettoized West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas are being politically deft with their position in this charter.

Activism has never won a war. Especially not your “if I tweet Zionist 100 times a day Palestine will be free” version of activism. Palestine doesn’t have the military backing to improve its position on the negotiating table nor does Israel have any reason or pressure to alter its course. All Palestine can do is take a reasonably amenable position so as to appear as the sane side of the conflict to generate international support.

How did South Africa rid itself of its apartheid regime? Was it not through international activist pressure? What "military" backing did the ANC have beyond the MK, which is less than the Palestinians have? Israel becoming a pariah state and facing economic and political consequences for their actions is a path to the eradication of their apartheid regime.

Ridiculous comparison. Black Americans have legal representation within the United States and various non-violent means of achieving reparations. I don’t particularly think it’s anywhere soon but I’m sure it will be explored heavily by individual states and legislatures. Palestine has no such representation. It doesn’t have the military might is subjugate Israel nor the economic and political backing to enforce a settlement.

Your orientalism keeps on showing in these discussions because you evidently believe the Palestinians/Arabs are a people incapable of non-violent means of achieving their goals. Stop listening to Arabian Nights and start reading the long history of Palestinian liberation literature. Reparations for slavery in America are objectively further away than international recognition of Palestinian statehood and international sanctions on Israel. The ICC is now seeking arrest warrants for the Prime Minister and top officials for god's sake.

Claiming the Palestinians are being magnanimous is like claiming the Japanese in 1945 were being magnanimous in accepting the Potsdam declaration. The only thing preventing their complete eradication is the good will of the international community putting pressure on Israel. Otherwise they would find the same result as the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh or Masalit of Sudan.

Hamas and Palestine should accept their position as the disadvantaged party and come to terms that guarantee the continued existence of its state. Otherwise with the Middle East rapidly normalizing relations with Israel their only lifeline may be quickly fading.

The only thing preventing the complete eradication of the Palestinian people is...the entire international community? Ok? Is that supposed to be weak tea?

Your rationale for why the Palestinians should just accept their position as subhuman dogs and be grateful for the scraps Israel chooses to give them is the exact same rationale deployed to evade reparations for slavery. You're the smaller, weaker party so you should just take what the masters give you before you make the master angry and get nothing! As I said, bytch-hearted. If the Palestinian movement chooses to accept a state on the 1967 borders, that is their decision to make as a people, but to claim it is a good deal or fair or just is bullshyt Israeli propaganda. They have autonomy, they have options and they have the moral argument.

 

[Mister Terrific]

which the proposed Palestinian state is granted equally valuable land

What does this mean?

or borders or even the full,

Israel offered Palestine 97% of occupied territory.

Arafat approves Taba plan too late​

The Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, yesterday belatedly accepted a Middle East peace plan put forward 18 months ago by the then US president, Bill Clinton.

But the Israeli government said the offer, which was discussed by Israeli and Palestinian negotiators at Taba in Egypt in January last year, was no longer on the table.


The Israelis had claimed the Taba package was generous and that Mr Arafat had been foolish not to grab it. Mr Arafat had repeatedly insisted that it was far from generous.

But, in an interview published yesterday in the Israeli daily Haaretz, he said: "I am prepared to accept it, absolutely." During the interview, a Haaretz reporter put the Taba proposals to Mr Arafat and he endorsed each of them.

The main elements of the Taba plan include: a division of Jerusalem between Israelis and Palestinians; a compromise on the future of the 3.5 million Palestinian refugees; and creation of a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza.

Mr Arafat's willingness to accept a deal now will add to the sense of confusion and weakness surrounding his leadership. The mood among Palestinians has been turning against him.

His isolation was underscored yesterday when Jordan's King Abdullah claimed the Palestinian leader had lost control over Palestinian militant groups.

King Abdullah said: "Over the years I always thought Arafat was capable of controlling Palestinian public sentiment and extremism. I think that is no longer the case today."

Against a background of almost daily fatalities, there is no sign of a peace plan acceptable to Mr Arafat and the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon. The US president, George Bush, postponed until next week at the earliest a speech in which he is expected to sketch out ideas for the creation of a "transitional" Palestinian state.

requisite features of an autonomous state (ie their own military, full control over their borders and airspace, territorial contiguity, etc).

Security​

​

The Israeli side requested to have 3 early warning stations on Palestinian territory.​

​

The Israeli side maintained that the Palestinian state would be non-militarized as per the Clinton proposals. The Palestinian side was prepared to accept limitation on its acquisition of arms, and be defined as a state with limited arms.​

The two sides recognized that the state of Palestine would have sovereignty over its airspace. The Israeli side agreed to accept and honor all Palestinian civil aviation rights according to international regulations, but sought a unified air control system under overriding Israel control. In addition, Israel requested access to Palestinian airspace for military operations and training.​

​

The Israeli side agreed to a withdrawal from the West Bank over a 36-month period with an additional 36 months for the Jordan Valley in conjunction with an international force. The Palestinian side rejected a 36-month withdrawal process from the West Bank expressing concern that a lengthy process would exacerbate Palestinian-Israeli tensions.​

​

The Israeli side requested to maintain and operate five emergency locations on potentially Palestinian territory (in the Jordan Valley) with the Palestinian response allowing for maximum of two emergency locations conditional on a time limit for the dismantling. The Palestinian side declined to agree to the deployment of Israeli armed forces on Palestinian territory during emergency situations, but was prepared to consider ways in which international forces might be used in that capacity, particularly within the context of regional security cooperation efforts.​

​

Both sides were prepared to commit themselves to promoting security cooperation and fighting terror.​

​

The Palestinian side was confident that Palestinian sovereignty over borders and international crossing points would be recognized in the agreement.​

The Western Liberals who cooked this idea up don't believe in the core of the Palestinian claims and cause, so they threw this bullshyt together and think the Palestinians should be grateful for the scraps.

This is like living in a trash pile eating bugs and someone offers you a modest room with an apple in it and you call it scraps. What exactly do you think you’ll get better than this?

As I said before, the Palestinians have been incredibly magnanimous to even entertain their national aspirations being shunted to the ghettoized West Bank and Gaza Strip. Hamas are being politically deft with their position in this charter.

30,000 civilians dead and entire country in ruins and occupied. Definitely deft.

How did South Africa rid itself of its apartheid regime? Was it not through international activist pressure? What "military" backing did the ANC have beyond the MK, which is less than the Palestinians have? Israel becoming a pariah state and facing economic and political consequences for their actions is a path to the eradication of their apartheid regime.

Whites in South Africa made up only 16% of the population and were being sanctioned by the United States. Jews make up 50% of the population of combined Israel and Palestine and 70% of the population of Israel itself with significant portions of loyal Christian and Druze. The odds of the US sanctioning Israel are virtually nill and the majority of Americans support Israel



I mean isn’t it obvious the difference?

Your orientalism keeps on showing in these discussions because you evidently believe the Palestinians/Arabs are a people incapable of non-violent means of achieving their goals.

I think non-violence is the only path forward for Palestinians. Every time they try violence, well…

The ICC is now seeking arrest warrants for the Prime Minister and top officials for god's sake.

That’s as about as meaningful as me seeking an arrest warrant for Donald Trump.

they have the moral argument.

Egypt, Jordan, UAE exports to Israel rise despite Gaza onslaught​

The data published on Thursday showed that Egyptian exports in May 2024 stood at $25m, double that of the same period in 2023, Middle East Monitor reported.

Despite increasingly fraught relations, energy and security cooperation between the two sides has intensified since October, with Israeli natural gas exports to Egypt sharply increasing in the last year.

Meanwhile, exports from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) to Israel also increased to $242m in May 2024, compared to $238.5m in May 2023, the report said.

Jordanian exports to Israel also continued to rise in 2024, reaching $35.7m in May 2024 compared to $32.3m in the same period last year.




Divestment going well then?

 

[Pressure]

two solutions never gained value because Hamas gained power during the most pro Palestine administrations in the west.

There is no military solution to force the issue.

further, US geopolitics has isolated any movement of note and to be frank WW3 isn’t on the table. It wasn’t during Bush or Obama. It wasn’t during the Trump assassinations. It isn’t available now.

The left wing boogeyman has been disproven almost exclusively because center right+ governments have chosen capitalism and wealth over this faux western idea that everyone who is Muslim or Arab are in alignment.

No one in the Middle East wants us back, boots on the ground, “spreading democracy”.

Neither do they want us provoking Arab spring 2.0.

Israel is largely fighting proxy groups that religious hardliners support, but everyone knows there’s a solution here that further allows the Arab nations to rid themselves of MB , IJ, Hamas, and HB without having to be the face of it.

The 9B in already approved funds to rebuild Gaza is going to Egypt, UAe, Qatar,SA etc .

 

[Mister Terrific]

Jesus fukk