Essential The Official Comic Book Discussion Thread [Support @Neuromancer’s book!]
- Thread starter MenacingMonk
- Start date
That is true...making Bob Harras EIC and giving him so much stroke in the company was a bad move.
I remember Mark Waid's name was being bounced around for that gig when it was announced that Paul Levitz was stepping down. They should have given it to Waid. Hell they should give the job back to Levitz.
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/09/20/after-infinity-comes-inhumanity
"For many readers, one of the big questions surrounding Infinity has been what separates the concept of being Inhuman from being a mutant. After all, aren't both groups comprised of superhuman individuals hiding in plain sight who face fear and persecution from the rest of society? While everyone was reluctant to say too much for fear of spoiling Infinity #4, Fraction said, "The history is wildly different, and the circumstances are wildly different, and I think the metaphor is wildly different."
Alonso said, "There's a lot we can't say right now. I'll point out a few objective things that set apart Inhumans from everyone else. One of them is that they predate the birth of the superhuman and the mutant. They go back millennia and they have a long and complicated, very bloody history that we're going to fill over time." Fraction elaborated, "We literally see prehistoric man in the pages of Inhumanity. It's a big, long story."
All the people in the Marvel U need to know is that their kids can't grow up to be an Inhuman and they'll be accepted.
"For many readers, one of the big questions surrounding Infinity has been what separates the concept of being Inhuman from being a mutant. After all, aren't both groups comprised of superhuman individuals hiding in plain sight who face fear and persecution from the rest of society? While everyone was reluctant to say too much for fear of spoiling Infinity #4, Fraction said, "The history is wildly different, and the circumstances are wildly different, and I think the metaphor is wildly different."
Alonso said, "There's a lot we can't say right now. I'll point out a few objective things that set apart Inhumans from everyone else. One of them is that they predate the birth of the superhuman and the mutant. They go back millennia and they have a long and complicated, very bloody history that we're going to fill over time." Fraction elaborated, "We literally see prehistoric man in the pages of Inhumanity. It's a big, long story."
All the people in the Marvel U need to know is that their kids can't grow up to be an Inhuman and they'll be accepted.
Mic-Nificent
I didn't eat nobody
I generally like Axel Alonso but fukk him and Fraction for that bullshyt logic. Yes there's a BIG difference between the backgrounds of both species but the general public of the Marvel Universe doesn't know that. Plus how the fukk in the metaphor "wildly different"? They must be planning some sort of retcon.
Greenstrings
All Star
You really need to read the entire article, there's a lot of context missing from the paragraphs I pulled out and he covers a lot of the issues you brought up.
DC's restrictive policies regarding its tentpole titles isn't the issue here, it's the fact that there appears to be an undeniable pattern of inconsistency, underhandedness and at times plain incompetence in the handling of creators, which has resulted in the exodus of disgruntled talent that we've seen over the past few years. A lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about how DC is being run right now and at no point does he didn't imply that this centred around the ringfencing of DC's top tier characters, so not sure what you're getting at there.
Wonder Woman is very much the exception that proves the rule in this instance and as a result her solo book is completely incongruous with what she's supposed to be to the rest of the DCU. The Wonder Woman in Trinity War is nothing like the one that Azzarello is writing.
Funny you should say that he elaborates further on Dial H. Karen Berger, the very same person that championed it, has now left DC and was critical of the direction the company is headed in.
I'm not seeing the contradiction you're hinting at. Dial H is only one book, its existence does not change the fact that the vast majority of DC's books fall under extremely heavy handed editorial mandates and surely the fact that it could not be incorporated into DC's inflexible mainstream proves his point.
No, I think you've misinterpreted what he's getting at there. He's not saying they shouldn't exist in the same comics he's lamenting the fact that DC felt it was necessary to streamline the characters in order to put them in the same crossover. Constantine in Hellblazer was dark, sophisticated and uncompromising, now its sarcastic one liners, cynical exposition and pissing contests. Pre Nu52 Shazam allegorically defined how childlike idealism and purity is the prism through which we interpret the ethics of superhero comics (it doesn't have to be one or the other, now it's sarcastic one liners, cynical exposition and pissing contests.
And please be real, the Shazam story was a backup in one of DC's most popular titles and was written by one of the primary architects of the Nu52. The characterisation and tone in that is clearly what they're going to use going forward, you can't just say "it doesn't count" because it doesn't have a cover.
Was nobody else confused by the fact that this event that they'd hyped up since the very first issue of every single book and built up as a game changer turned out to be just a tepid preamble to a crime syndicate story?
Maybe it is because the whole article wasn't posted but certain parts of his statements seemed to contradictory (the Dial H stuff) or muddled (his opinion on Wonder Woman in other books but not her own comic). He hates the single focus editorial mandated DCU that takes creative control from creators yet wants to have one of the books that is allowed full creative freedom to be inserted in that editorial mandated realm.You really need to read the entire article, there's a lot of context missing from the paragraphs I pulled out and he covers a lot of the issues you brought up.
DC's restrictive policies regarding its tentpole titles isn't the issue here, it's the fact that there appears to be an undeniable pattern of inconsistency, underhandedness and at times plain incompetence in the handling of creators, which has resulted in the exodus of disgruntled talent that we've seen over the past few years. A lot of people have a lot of bad things to say about how DC is being run right now and at no point does he didn't imply that this centred around the ringfencing of DC's top tier characters, so not sure what you're getting at there.
Wonder Woman is very much the exception that proves the rule in this instance and as a result her solo book is completely incongruous with what she's supposed to be to the rest of the DCU. The Wonder Woman in Trinity War is nothing like the one that Azzarello is writing.
Funny you should say that he elaborates further on Dial H. Karen Berger, the very same person that championed it, has now left DC and was critical of the direction the company is headed in.
I'm not seeing the contradiction you're hinting at. Dial H is only one book, its existence does not change the fact that the vast majority of DC's books fall under extremely heavy handed editorial mandates and surely the fact that it could not be incorporated into DC's inflexible mainstream proves his point.
No, I think you've misinterpreted what he's getting at there. He's not saying they shouldn't exist in the same comics he's lamenting the fact that DC felt it was necessary to streamline the characters in order to put them in the same crossover. Constantine in Hellblazer was dark, sophisticated and uncompromising, now its sarcastic one liners, cynical exposition and pissing contests. Pre Nu52 Shazam allegorically defined how childlike idealism and purity is the prism through which we interpret the ethics of superhero comics (it doesn't have to be one or the other, now it's sarcastic one liners, cynical exposition and pissing contests.
And please be real, the Shazam story was a backup in one of DC's most popular titles and was written by one of the primary architects of the Nu52. The characterisation and tone in that is clearly what they're going to use going forward, you can't just say "it doesn't count" because it doesn't have a cover.
Was nobody else confused by the fact that this event that they'd hyped up since the very first issue of every single book and built up as a game changer turned out to be just a tepid preamble to a crime syndicate story?
As to your and his points about Constantine and Shazam; Constantine is pretty much in line with the way the character was presented in his initial appearance in the proper DCU with maybe a bit more snark but he isn't completely out of character. True it is not the same character from the Vertigo series but its not supposed to be. DC/WB wants to maximize their IPs and the decision was made to run with Constantine as a potential mass media character. That couldn't be done with the mature audiences Vertigo take on the character. Now I would have preferred they kept the Vertigo book alive and just have two different iterations of the character but I don't get a say on those decisions.
And Shazam/Captain Marvel has not been an allegory on childlike idealism and purity in decades. The way the character has been shown in his intro in the Justice League backups is more in keeping with the way the character was presented in the Jerry Ordway Power of Shazam comics from the 90s which was the definitive portrayal of the character in the DCU. Also my point about jumping the gun to call the character "dark" was just to say that the character has appeared in a back up and a few guest spots and even in those it is a more realistic and modern approach to the character but I wouldn't necessarily label it "dark".
Like I said before, DC has problems (most of them could probably be fixed if Bob Harras wasn;t the EIC) but they also are not the evil corporation producing crap and shytting all over creators heads. There is a significant amount of piling on that gets done online in regards to DC as if the bullshyt that is going on there is not bullshyt that has gone on in comics since day one.
Greenstrings
All Star
Yeah it does make a lot more sense in the context of the article which you should definitely read in full if you get a chance. I think you're conflating two things that don't necessarily have to go hand in hand. It is most definitely possible to have focused editorial whilst giving creators ample freedom to experiment. DC did it in the 90's, Marvel is doing it right now, there doesn't have to be an either or. The reason why DC editorial is so intransigent is because they've had to spend the last two years reestablishing the origins and motivations of characters that everybody already knew the origins and motivations of and any deviation from conventional ideals would obstruct that and even then the characters still don't feel fully realised so writers are left trying to fit years of continuity into single issues and all we're left with is plot.
And are you being serious? You're forgetting that they took the mature audience version of Constantine and turned it into a movie that grossed 230 mil. I really don't understand why people have bought wholesale into this idea of sanitising comics in order to make them more translatable to film. Not only does it make absolutely no difference in terms of what these movies turn out to be. (Writers draw from iconic stories, not new ones) but once the superhero movie bubble bursts, all that remains will be an inferior quality product, which for me is the crux of all this (I probably shouldn't have got bogged down in characterization because essentially its beside the point). None of this other shyt would matter to anybody if DC were actually putting out a decent number of good comics, which they simply aren't and I'm not just picking on DC because it's the fashionable thing to do.
Greenstrings
All Star
I have a feeling this is why they're keeping Wally West out of the picture. I think he's their out if all this ends up falling flat
Got my eyes on Wonder Woman, Lantern specifically
Jupiter's Legacy, and see where the story goes
Image coming with two books that I might give a look to later on Sex Criminals by Matt Fraction and Rat Queens
Jupiter's Legacy, and see where the story goes
Image coming with two books that I might give a look to later on Sex Criminals by Matt Fraction and Rat Queens
Mic-Nificent
I didn't eat nobody
Anybody who loves classic Avengers shyt needs to pick up the latest issue of A+X. That Wonder Man/Beast story was some good shyt.
I think he's the flash in justice league 3000
Bane pimp smacking a little girl.