Bigblackted4
Superstar
Hell yes
Essential The Official Boxing Random Thoughts Thread...All boxing heads ENTER.
- Thread starter Jesus Is Lord
- Start date
Brook was losing on all 3 scorecards at the time of the stoppage, even if he did make it to the final bell in full on survival mode ya mans was gonna take that L regardless.All this talk of Thurman vs Spence.. hmmm
I can see Thurman beating him by keeping the distance and catching him with shots on the outside but I can see Spence beating him on the inside. Now the Spence I saw face Brook was very slow out of the blocks and up until the stoppage I thought he was losing. I do think that Brook should have held on because he could have snuck away with a 7-5 type victory but whatever we cant change events. Now it took him until late to stop Brook and personally I think Thurman would have stopped Brook earlier (Thurman may be a bigger puncher than Spence) .
Right now I think Thurman gets an 8-4/7-5 type victory over him, just based on the fact that hes fought the top competition at welterweight and has beaten them back to back convincingly while coming off an injury. However, with how injury prone Thurman is I dont think it benefits him in the long run especially if Spence is keeping active. Kid is out fighting once a year its gotta change. If Thurman wants that W on his resume he needs to fight Spence before 2019..
GREENandYELLOW
2x...and defending
Thought this was a really good Breadman mailbag:
I also think Horn will beat Pac in a rematch although Pac probably nipped the 1st one. Horn is a tough style for him and he’s bull strong.
Here is the thing about Pacman’s decline in kos. It could be lack of PED use. Who freaking knows, especially in this era. But it also could be age and style. It really depends on how much you like Pac. Then you can decide which excuse to give him. I honestly don’t know. But if it is his age then I get your point.
Without speculating and just dealing in facts I will touch on some things. Since Pac’s last ko which was over Cotto, his opponent’s records have been incredible. Clottey, Margarito, Mosely, Marquez, Bradley, Marquez, Rios, Algieri, Bradley, Mayweather, Vargas, Bradley and Horn. In his 13 fights since Cotto no one has brought up only one of his opponents had been knocked out before Pac fought them. And that opponent Antonio Margarito has one of the better chins I have ever seen. That’s about 450 fights between his last 13 opponents and only 1 ko loss among them. That should be considered when assessing his lack of kos. We as a boxing community need to do better and do more research before we state our opinions as facts. Before I insert my subjective preference I research facts that can’t be disputed.
KO power is only relative to you’re hitting. It’s really something to think about. At welterweight I think Pac has lost his extra gear. He had a gear that he could snap into and really drop water on the concrete to crack it. He doesn’t have that gear anymore. When he had Jeff Horn hurt he got tired. The old Pac would have stopped Horn in that 9th round. So maybe it’s lack of PEDs. Maybe he’s old. Maybe it’s both. Who knows?
What I do know is he still seems to hurt all of his opponents. He’s always knocking them down, staggering them and busting them up. He’s just not finishing them anymore. I never repeat Pac has lost his power. I always say he has lost his ability to score stoppages. There is a difference.
One more thing we must take note of. Pac’s ko streak stopped 3 years before he took his 1st VADA test. He started going the distance in the Joshua Clottey fight. In that fight he threw 1200 punches. He didn’t start testing until 3 years later against Brandon Rios. I don’t have a horse in the race. He very well could have been on PEDs. But it is a misguided statement to say the kos stopped when the testing started. In actuality the kos stopped in 2010 long before the testing ever started.
I hope one day the truth comes out. A cheater is a cheater in my opinion. No one is above honor and integrity. When the B samples are opened one day something tells me lots of fighters from this era will have * next to their names….
I also think Horn will beat Pac in a rematch although Pac probably nipped the 1st one. Horn is a tough style for him and he’s bull strong.
Here is the thing about Pacman’s decline in kos. It could be lack of PED use. Who freaking knows, especially in this era. But it also could be age and style. It really depends on how much you like Pac. Then you can decide which excuse to give him. I honestly don’t know. But if it is his age then I get your point.
Without speculating and just dealing in facts I will touch on some things. Since Pac’s last ko which was over Cotto, his opponent’s records have been incredible. Clottey, Margarito, Mosely, Marquez, Bradley, Marquez, Rios, Algieri, Bradley, Mayweather, Vargas, Bradley and Horn. In his 13 fights since Cotto no one has brought up only one of his opponents had been knocked out before Pac fought them. And that opponent Antonio Margarito has one of the better chins I have ever seen. That’s about 450 fights between his last 13 opponents and only 1 ko loss among them. That should be considered when assessing his lack of kos. We as a boxing community need to do better and do more research before we state our opinions as facts. Before I insert my subjective preference I research facts that can’t be disputed.
KO power is only relative to you’re hitting. It’s really something to think about. At welterweight I think Pac has lost his extra gear. He had a gear that he could snap into and really drop water on the concrete to crack it. He doesn’t have that gear anymore. When he had Jeff Horn hurt he got tired. The old Pac would have stopped Horn in that 9th round. So maybe it’s lack of PEDs. Maybe he’s old. Maybe it’s both. Who knows?
What I do know is he still seems to hurt all of his opponents. He’s always knocking them down, staggering them and busting them up. He’s just not finishing them anymore. I never repeat Pac has lost his power. I always say he has lost his ability to score stoppages. There is a difference.
One more thing we must take note of. Pac’s ko streak stopped 3 years before he took his 1st VADA test. He started going the distance in the Joshua Clottey fight. In that fight he threw 1200 punches. He didn’t start testing until 3 years later against Brandon Rios. I don’t have a horse in the race. He very well could have been on PEDs. But it is a misguided statement to say the kos stopped when the testing started. In actuality the kos stopped in 2010 long before the testing ever started.
I hope one day the truth comes out. A cheater is a cheater in my opinion. No one is above honor and integrity. When the B samples are opened one day something tells me lots of fighters from this era will have * next to their names….
GREENandYELLOW
2x...and defending
Floyd’s strength is deceptive. He has enduring strength. He also does not try to overwhelm you with strength. He uses his strength to not allow himself to be overwhelmed. There is a difference. So he doesn’t have to be the strongest man in the ring. He’s strong enough to not be taken advantage of.
I give McGregor about a 10% chance to win. I think his warm up rhythm is being laughed at. But the one thing I know about unorthodox athletes is if they believe in what they are doing it can work for them. Look how Reggie Miller shoots a basketball. Or how Tyson Fury and Carl Froch box.
Fury and Froch seem clumsy but it’s really effective. I think McGregor has serious physical strength. He knows how to push-punch and manipulate a fighter. Sort of like Fury and Froch. I think his punch technique is sort of poor but he can throw a serious straight left hand in the middle of the push stuff. At one time I thought he was going to try to bum rush Floyd. But I think he’s going to box Floyd now. I think he will try to clown him and get the crowd involved. I expect lots of posturing. I expect him to posture in martial arts stances just to give Floyd the threat of doing something other than punching him. Floyd will have to defend against this. There may be a short adjustment period. But at some point Floyd will lock in like he always does and he will hit McGregor and McGregor won’t be able to hit him. At that point the fight will be over. We will just have to see if Floyd is willing to go for a knockout. My pick is Floyd by 8th round tko.
I give McGregor about a 10% chance to win. I think his warm up rhythm is being laughed at. But the one thing I know about unorthodox athletes is if they believe in what they are doing it can work for them. Look how Reggie Miller shoots a basketball. Or how Tyson Fury and Carl Froch box.
Fury and Froch seem clumsy but it’s really effective. I think McGregor has serious physical strength. He knows how to push-punch and manipulate a fighter. Sort of like Fury and Froch. I think his punch technique is sort of poor but he can throw a serious straight left hand in the middle of the push stuff. At one time I thought he was going to try to bum rush Floyd. But I think he’s going to box Floyd now. I think he will try to clown him and get the crowd involved. I expect lots of posturing. I expect him to posture in martial arts stances just to give Floyd the threat of doing something other than punching him. Floyd will have to defend against this. There may be a short adjustment period. But at some point Floyd will lock in like he always does and he will hit McGregor and McGregor won’t be able to hit him. At that point the fight will be over. We will just have to see if Floyd is willing to go for a knockout. My pick is Floyd by 8th round tko.
GREENandYELLOW
2x...and defending
Breadman all-time PFP:
1. Sugar Ray Robinson- There is actual footage of him at welterweight at about 24 and 25 years old. 5’11, crushing power, iron chin, blazing speed, character, experience, amateur pedigree. No one is beating him on his best night. In a time when 99% of the fighters had a handful of losses Robinson got up to 131-1-2. All of the draws and one loss were avenged with kos. His record is as real as a record can get. He stands up to every criterion and he can’t be lower than #3 on the most stringent historians list. He turned pro at 134lbs standing 5’11 on the same day weigh in. There is no doubt in my mind if he were fighting today he would be a titlist from 130-160 legitimately. If he were fighting today he would be a full 2 inches taller than every welterweight champion currently which is his peak weight. For me he’s #1. The next man on my list confirmed it.
2. Muhammad Ali- I may get some flack for rating Ali so high. Most historians have him around 7-9. But the mid 60’s version of Ali is as good as it gets. He has everything except body punching and he never needed it on his best nights. He wasn’t considered a puncher but yet he stopped some of the greatest punchers ever. Foster, Moore, Patterson, Foreman, Frazier, Liston and Williams. Not only is he one of the top 5 most athletically gifted fighters ever, he’s top 5 in, in the ring character. Ali is a monster on the inside. He’s literally willing to fight to the death. He’s the one guy in history to literally has NO misses as to who he should have fought. There was no businessman decisions with Ali. When ranking in the ring greatness he gets extra credit from me for not ducking anyone. I still can’t believe he was as shot as he was, challenging an in his prime Larry Holmes!
3. Henry Armstrong- Would anyone really want to fight Armstrong? You can’t hurt him. You can’t outwork him. You can’t run from him. You can’t tie him up. Think of Aaron Pryor, Shawn Porter and Joe Frazier mixed together. Think about this. Shawn Porter has a hard time getting fights in this era. Armstrong is faster, a harder puncher and more athletic than Porter. He made his bones at welterweight but he was able to make featherweight. To top it off he always came forward no matter how big the opponent was. Armstrong was a honey badger in boxing gloves.
4. Roberto Duran- If Duran doesn’t quit in the No Mas fight he’s higher. His evolution is the best in the history of the sport. He went from a pressure swarmer to a cute in the box technician. Could another lightweight in history extend a prime Hagler or beat a 6’1 Iran Barkley?
5. Benny Leonard- I’ve seen him. Boy was he good. Foot feints. Slipping sliding. #1 guy in history until Armstrong came around.
6. Ezzard Charles- The most underrated fighter in history. His run from 1943-51 could be the best in history. Technically brilliant. Could throw every punch in the book. Wasn’t as fast and athletic as Robinson and Pep but every bit as efficient. He was also matched insanely tough early on during his runs at middleweight and lightheavyweight.
7. Sugar Ray Leonard- The best fighter since 1980. Does anyone have 4 heads higher than Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. Against any style you could bet on the Sugar Man to come through. Besides Joe Louis and maybe Sugar Robinson he’s the greatest finisher ever. If he doesn’t get injured in 1982, he has a legit shot at top 3 ever.
8. Willie Pep- Defensive genius. Best feet in the history of boxing. Started out 134-1-1. Best stick and move artist I have ever seen. His rematch victory over Sandy Saddler is one of the top 10 big fight performances in the history of boxing. He has to win that fight and he did.
9. Joe Louis- History’s best puncher. Extremely resilient and the most consistent fighter in history. Also had an underrated IQ. It shows in his rematch record. It also shows after he was knocked down. He got up and fought like an SOB. The perfect text book puncher. His punching form is still the best ever and his prime was almost 80 years ago. You can’t evolve much higher than Louis’s punch technique. If I ever wanted a guy hit I would pick Louis to hit him.
10. Roy Jones- I know his end was horrible. But so were lots of others. Jones’s peak may be the highest in the history of the sport. I’m going to just leave it at that. From 93-03 no one had the heart to bet against Roy Jones. Everyone is loyal to their money. You were going to lose your money if you bet against him. Out of this world reflexes, speed, punching power, stamina and timing. I’ve never seen anything like the combination he hit Reggie Johnson with that knocked Johnson down. He was so good he made all time great technical fighters look mortal in James Toney and Bernard Hopkins. Neither guy was able to win more than 3 rounds against a prime RJ. If he stops boxing after the John Ruiz fight he’s next to Robinson.
Serious consideration: Tony Canzoneri, Eder Jofre, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore, Marvin Hagler, Sandy Saddler, Floyd Mayweather Jr and Manny Pacquiao.
The 1980s.
1. Ray Leonard
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Tommy Hearns
5. Mike Tyson
6. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Michael Spinks
8. Larry Holmes
9. Aaron Pryor
10. Evander Holyfield
1. Sugar Ray Robinson- There is actual footage of him at welterweight at about 24 and 25 years old. 5’11, crushing power, iron chin, blazing speed, character, experience, amateur pedigree. No one is beating him on his best night. In a time when 99% of the fighters had a handful of losses Robinson got up to 131-1-2. All of the draws and one loss were avenged with kos. His record is as real as a record can get. He stands up to every criterion and he can’t be lower than #3 on the most stringent historians list. He turned pro at 134lbs standing 5’11 on the same day weigh in. There is no doubt in my mind if he were fighting today he would be a titlist from 130-160 legitimately. If he were fighting today he would be a full 2 inches taller than every welterweight champion currently which is his peak weight. For me he’s #1. The next man on my list confirmed it.
2. Muhammad Ali- I may get some flack for rating Ali so high. Most historians have him around 7-9. But the mid 60’s version of Ali is as good as it gets. He has everything except body punching and he never needed it on his best nights. He wasn’t considered a puncher but yet he stopped some of the greatest punchers ever. Foster, Moore, Patterson, Foreman, Frazier, Liston and Williams. Not only is he one of the top 5 most athletically gifted fighters ever, he’s top 5 in, in the ring character. Ali is a monster on the inside. He’s literally willing to fight to the death. He’s the one guy in history to literally has NO misses as to who he should have fought. There was no businessman decisions with Ali. When ranking in the ring greatness he gets extra credit from me for not ducking anyone. I still can’t believe he was as shot as he was, challenging an in his prime Larry Holmes!
3. Henry Armstrong- Would anyone really want to fight Armstrong? You can’t hurt him. You can’t outwork him. You can’t run from him. You can’t tie him up. Think of Aaron Pryor, Shawn Porter and Joe Frazier mixed together. Think about this. Shawn Porter has a hard time getting fights in this era. Armstrong is faster, a harder puncher and more athletic than Porter. He made his bones at welterweight but he was able to make featherweight. To top it off he always came forward no matter how big the opponent was. Armstrong was a honey badger in boxing gloves.
4. Roberto Duran- If Duran doesn’t quit in the No Mas fight he’s higher. His evolution is the best in the history of the sport. He went from a pressure swarmer to a cute in the box technician. Could another lightweight in history extend a prime Hagler or beat a 6’1 Iran Barkley?
5. Benny Leonard- I’ve seen him. Boy was he good. Foot feints. Slipping sliding. #1 guy in history until Armstrong came around.
6. Ezzard Charles- The most underrated fighter in history. His run from 1943-51 could be the best in history. Technically brilliant. Could throw every punch in the book. Wasn’t as fast and athletic as Robinson and Pep but every bit as efficient. He was also matched insanely tough early on during his runs at middleweight and lightheavyweight.
7. Sugar Ray Leonard- The best fighter since 1980. Does anyone have 4 heads higher than Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. Against any style you could bet on the Sugar Man to come through. Besides Joe Louis and maybe Sugar Robinson he’s the greatest finisher ever. If he doesn’t get injured in 1982, he has a legit shot at top 3 ever.
8. Willie Pep- Defensive genius. Best feet in the history of boxing. Started out 134-1-1. Best stick and move artist I have ever seen. His rematch victory over Sandy Saddler is one of the top 10 big fight performances in the history of boxing. He has to win that fight and he did.
9. Joe Louis- History’s best puncher. Extremely resilient and the most consistent fighter in history. Also had an underrated IQ. It shows in his rematch record. It also shows after he was knocked down. He got up and fought like an SOB. The perfect text book puncher. His punching form is still the best ever and his prime was almost 80 years ago. You can’t evolve much higher than Louis’s punch technique. If I ever wanted a guy hit I would pick Louis to hit him.
10. Roy Jones- I know his end was horrible. But so were lots of others. Jones’s peak may be the highest in the history of the sport. I’m going to just leave it at that. From 93-03 no one had the heart to bet against Roy Jones. Everyone is loyal to their money. You were going to lose your money if you bet against him. Out of this world reflexes, speed, punching power, stamina and timing. I’ve never seen anything like the combination he hit Reggie Johnson with that knocked Johnson down. He was so good he made all time great technical fighters look mortal in James Toney and Bernard Hopkins. Neither guy was able to win more than 3 rounds against a prime RJ. If he stops boxing after the John Ruiz fight he’s next to Robinson.
Serious consideration: Tony Canzoneri, Eder Jofre, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore, Marvin Hagler, Sandy Saddler, Floyd Mayweather Jr and Manny Pacquiao.
The 1980s.
1. Ray Leonard
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Salvador Sanchez
4. Tommy Hearns
5. Mike Tyson
6. Julio Cesar Chavez
7. Michael Spinks
8. Larry Holmes
9. Aaron Pryor
10. Evander Holyfield
GREENandYELLOW
2x...and defending
Top chins post 2000:
Bread’s Response: This is tough because 2000 covers another era. But I will try.
1. Glen Johnson
2. James Toney
3. Ruslan Provodnikov
4. Genady Golovkin
5. David Tua
6. Carl Froch
7. Antonio Margarito
8. Joshua Clottey
9. Brandon Rios
10. Danny Garcia
I know I left some tungsten chins out but those guys popped in my head right away.
Bread’s Response: This is tough because 2000 covers another era. But I will try.
1. Glen Johnson
2. James Toney
3. Ruslan Provodnikov
4. Genady Golovkin
5. David Tua
6. Carl Froch
7. Antonio Margarito
8. Joshua Clottey
9. Brandon Rios
10. Danny Garcia
I know I left some tungsten chins out but those guys popped in my head right away.
bigbadbossup2012
Biggest baddest boss
Breadman a Floyd hater?
reservoirdogs
Superstar
Nah he's not
He just has a lively imagination and likes to approach things from weird angles, which can result in wise things and foolish sounding ones too. This is why he would say things like McGregor having 10% chance against Floyd - which sounds quite unimaginable - and have well argued opinions + good stylistic breakdowns in the same article.
I think we all hold boxing HOF to the same standard as the NFL or MLB HOF, not so much the basketball HOF.2 gold medals and a win over p4p Donaire and Loma wouldn't put him in the same place where Gatti is currently at
nikkas is so extra w the Rigo hate
Truth it Rigo, Loma, Zhou Shaming are all gonna get in because of their 2 gold medals IMO.
reservoirdogs
Superstar
nah...
amateur stuff don't count in the IBHOF do it?
Terence Crawford beats Julius Indongo and becomes the Undisputed Champion at JWW....where is he ranked in the P4P list?
He's currently ranked #4. In front of him is Andre Ward, Gennady Golovkin, and Roman Gonzalez. Crawford believes he should be #1 P4P after he wins...what do you think? He moves up or stays at the same #4 slot?
He's currently ranked #4. In front of him is Andre Ward, Gennady Golovkin, and Roman Gonzalez. Crawford believes he should be #1 P4P after he wins...what do you think? He moves up or stays at the same #4 slot?
reservoirdogs
Superstar
with all due respect to Roman but how can he be top 3 let alone top 5 on anyone's list when he just lost to someone who wasn't on any P4P lists before? We really pretend like it didn't happen at all?Terence Crawford beats Julius Indongo and becomes the Undisputed Champion at JWW....where is he ranked in the P4P list?
He's currently ranked #4. In front of him is Andre Ward, Gennady Golovkin, and Roman Gonzalez. Crawford believes he should be #1 P4P after he wins...what do you think? He moves up or stays at the same #4 slot?
I think Crawford should replace Gonzalez at #3 after he beats Indongo, but I don't see how Gonzalez is even in the top 5. The last 2 times I seen him, he lost (imo) to Cuadras but beat King Sor. Officially he's 1-1 over his last 2 regardless, so I don't see how he's ranked that high either.
Obviously, I don't think Crawford deserves to be that high either (#3 or #4), especially knowing that Keith Thurman is not even in the Top 10 period and he should be bc his recent resume is better than anyone's currently between 140 - 154, but it's whatever. P4P lists are weird and very biased
malbaker86
Gators
Terence Crawford beats Julius Indongo and becomes the Undisputed Champion at JWW....where is he ranked in the P4P list?
He's currently ranked #4. In front of him is Andre Ward, Gennady Golovkin, and Roman Gonzalez. Crawford believes he should be #1 P4P after he wins...what do you think? He moves up or stays at the same #4 slot?
Well he should be infront of GGG and Roman. Roman should be outta there anyways. Now i do believe the GGG- Canelo winner should be top 3. If Indongo wins, he should be 9th or 10th at the most
I think the winner of GGG/Canelo should be #2 and the loser #4. That's a tough matchup and I cant see Crawford beating Indongo being better than GGG beating Canelo or Canelo beating GGG.
Furthest I'd move him up is #3 as of August 20th and I'd keep GGG ahead of him because GGG has been dominant for much longer at 160 than Crawford has been at 140. Both are weak divisions, so there on equal playing fields when it comes to opponents
