The Official Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice Movie Thread

[Ain't That Something]

Yeah I see both of your points but I'm inclined to lean your direction because I like the more complex version of superman Bruce Timm brought to the table and the one currently in comics. That version is more compelling to me and the minute I began to really like his character. In the justice lords episode where he makes the deal with Luther and says that he had to make a touch decision but it was the right one, flash says to him "so you're really not a boy scout after all" and he responds with "didn't make it to my first meeting" and does it with a smile and a wink, that's the superman I like. The guy who's conflicted about the idea of superman and the reality of who he knows he is. I just got put on to Greg Ennis' Hitman comic and issue 34 is about that very thing. Check it out when you get the chance breh I think you'll like it

Appreciate it I will.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Appreciate it I will.

Yeah quick download in the dc comics app. Made me want to read the whole run. The basic story is just the Hitman character and superman talking on a roof in Gotham.

 

[TheGodling]

Now I finally understand your issues with M.O.S the movie is a betrayal to your ideal of what Superman is. I can understand and accept that as valid, but I don't have those same issues because the superman I grew up with was not the ideal poster boy you knew. He was the Superman TAS, and JL and JLU cartoon superman. And now I'm into reading comics the New 52 superman. The only time I saw a poster boy supes was in those old 70s movie. Different era breh different era.

Nah, you don't fully get it. Even in those cartoons, he's that idealistic character. What people don't get is that just because you're idealistic about the world, doesn't mean you have to be a squeaky clean poster boy. Take that second clip you posted of JLU. The shyt he says to Darkseid is spot-on for Superman because he does love his power, and he wishes he could always go all out because every person wishes to perform at his peak, but as he also says, he knows he's so much more powerful than anyone else that it makes him dangerous, and that's why he restricts himself.

Yeah I see both of your points but I'm inclined to lean your direction because I like the more complex version of superman Bruce Timm brought to the table and the one currently in comics. That version is more compelling to me and the minute I began to really like his character. In the justice lords episode where he makes the deal with Luther and says that he had to make a touch decision but it was the right one, flash says to him "so you're really not a boy scout after all" and he responds with "didn't make it to my first meeting" and does it with a smile and a wink, that's the superman I like. The guy who's conflicted about the idea of superman and the reality of who he knows he is. I just got put on to Greg Ennis' Hitman comic and issue 34 is about that very thing. Check it out when you get the chance breh I think you'll like it

Good advice about that issue from Hitman which is one of my favorite Superman issues of all time (and shows a very vulnerable Supes but really emphasizes why it's so important for him to inspire hope).

Again, I think most of you guys miss the point that just because he is a kind hearted farmer boy who believes in a better world doesn't mean he's a boyscout. He will always shut down the bad guys, but he knows the Superman persona represents far more than that. Grant Morrison nailed that in his New 52 Action Comics run, Joe Kelly absolutely nailed that in "What's so funny about Truth, Justice & The American Way?" and indeed, Garth Ennis (not Greg, Marty... Geez!) nailed that in "Of Thee I Sing".

 

[TheGodling]

Oh, and you can read that issue in full here: http://www.shwiggie.com/hitman/hm-34/

 

[MartyMcFly]

Nah, you don't fully get it. Even in those cartoons, he's that idealistic character. What people don't get is that just because you're idealistic about the world, doesn't mean you have to be a squeaky clean poster boy. Take that second clip you posted of JLU. The shyt he says to Darkseid is spot-on for Superman because he does love his power, and he wishes he could always go all out because every person wishes to perform at his peak, but as he also says, he knows he's so much more powerful than anyone else that it makes him dangerous, and that's why he restricts himself.



Good advice about that issue from Hitman which is one of my favorite Superman issues of all time (and shows a very vulnerable Supes but really emphasizes why it's so important for him to inspire hope).

Again, I think most of you guys miss the point that just because he is a kind hearted farmer boy who believes in a better world doesn't mean he's a boyscout. He will always shut down the bad guys, but he knows the Superman persona represents far more than that. Grant Morrison nailed that in his New 52 Action Comics run, Joe Kelly absolutely nailed that in "What's so funny about Truth, Justice & The American Way?" and indeed, Garth Ennis (not Greg, Marty... Geez!) nailed that in "Of Thee I Sing".

No I don't miss the point breh. I get the point. I'm telling you what I like and what makes him compelling to me. I like when he shows how conflicted he is and how he has his own issues to deal with aside from "will Lois choose me or superman" and when he has philosophical clashes with batman or how even with all good inside of him and the desire to do good, a lot of it is based on people's perception of him rather than who he actually is. He's not perfect but people expect him to be. He has foibles and flaws just like everyone else but he also can't afford to display those things. And even with all that he can still be cold hearted when pushed or when Lex is in the picture. I like his idealism because I'm an idealist myself but I also like showing that he has shortcomings and can truly mess up. And it bugs him when he messes up because he doesn't like letting people down or letting himself down. He truly carries the weight of the world on his shoulders and showing how that affects him is dope to me. Ignoring that and just making him this perfect walking talking ideal rather than a person is boring

 

[Ain't That Something]

Nah, you don't fully get it. Even in those cartoons, he's that idealistic character. What people don't get is that just because you're idealistic about the world, doesn't mean you have to be a squeaky clean poster boy. Take that second clip you posted of JLU. The shyt he says to Darkseid is spot-on for Superman because he does love his power, and he wishes he could always go all out because every person wishes to perform at his peak, but as he also says, he knows he's so much more powerful than anyone else that it makes him dangerous, and that's why he restricts himself.



Good advice about that issue from Hitman which is one of my favorite Superman issues of all time (and shows a very vulnerable Supes but really emphasizes why it's so important for him to inspire hope).

Again, I think most of you guys miss the point that just because he is a kind hearted farmer boy who believes in a better world doesn't mean he's a boyscout. He will always shut down the bad guys, but he knows the Superman persona represents far more than that. Grant Morrison nailed that in his New 52 Action Comics run, Joe Kelly absolutely nailed that in "What's so funny about Truth, Justice & The American Way?" and indeed, Garth Ennis (not Greg, Marty... Geez!) nailed that in "Of Thee I Sing".

But the first clip is him losing g his shyt because of paranoia and a pessimistic view of Luther intention. Hell he even beats Captain marvel to a pulp and destroys a city in the process

 

[MartyMcFly]

But the first clip is him losing g his shyt because of paranoia and a pessimistic view of Luther intention. Hell he even beats Captain marvel to a pulp and destroys a city in the process

Right all because he doesn't trust Luthor and rightfully so but it shows how he's human. Yes he wants to see the best in people he wants to be idealistic but even he has a limit for that with a habitual line stepper like lex

 

[TheGodling]

No I don't miss the point breh. I get the point. I'm telling you what I like and what makes him compelling to me. I like when he shows how conflicted he is and how he has his own issues to deal with aside from "will Lois choose me or superman" and when he has philosophical clashes with batman or how even with all good inside of him and the desire to do good, a lot of it is based on people's perception of him rather than who he actually is. He's not perfect but people expect him to be. He has foibles and flaws just like everyone else but he also can't afford to display those things. And even with all that he can still be cold hearted when pushed or when Lex is in the picture. I like his idealism because I'm an idealist myself but I also like showing that he has donuts and can truly mess up. And it bugs him when he messes up because he doesn't like letting people down or letting himself down. He truly carries the weight of the world on his shoulders and showing how that affects him is dope to me. Ignoring that and just making him this perfect walking talking ideal rather than a person is boring

Where did I say he has to be perfect though? Like I said, he's good natured at heart, but that doesn't make him perfect. As I've said in every Man Of Steel thread, he doesn't had to succeed in saving everyone, people could've died, but he should've tried. The issue of Hitman is a perfect example because there's no way he can't save that one guy knowing what he has to do to save the others, but in that moment, the concern is there and it's hurting him. That's what separates him from Man Of Steel's Superman who is never shown to have that kind of concern as a city falls apart around him.

But the first clip is him losing g his shyt because of paranoia and a pessimistic view of Luther intention. Hell he even beats Captain marvel to a pulp and destroys a city in the process

Again, being good natured at heart doesn't mean being perfect. It doesn't mean he has to be trusting of a person (Luthor) who he knows is incredibly dangerous and holds a personal vendetta against him. Because that would be naive, which is completely different and that's what you and Marty are mistaking him for when I say he's good natured and idealistic. Idealism isn't ignoring reality and look at life through rose-colored glasses, it's looking at reality and striving to make it better.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Where did I say he has to be perfect though? Like I said, he's good natured at heart, but that doesn't make him perfect. As I've said in every Man Of Steel thread, he doesn't had to succeed in saving everyone, people could've died, but he should've tried. The issue of Hitman is a perfect example because there's no way he can't save that one guy knowing what he has to do to save the others, but in that moment, the concern is there and it's hurting him. That's what separates him from Man Of Steel's Superman who is never shown to have that kind of concern as a city falls apart around him.



Again, being good natured at heart doesn't mean being perfect. It doesn't mean he has to be trusting of a person (Luthor) who he knows is incredibly dangerous and holds a personal vendetta against him. Because that would be naive, which is completely different and that's what you and Marty are mistaking him for when I say he's good natured and idealistic. Idealism isn't ignoring reality and look at life through rose-colored glasses, it's looking at reality and striving to make it better.

And what we are saying is that the film iterations of him have made him look at the world through rose colored glasses. That the stereotypical view of him is that whereas the actual character is different. I'm not going to speak for the homie but I know I'm talking about most mainstream versions of the character portray him that way and that just doesn't fly (yeah I know) anymore. Aside from the fact that it's boring it's also passé. Now his portrayal in man of steel was not perfect by any means but I appreciate the fact that it showed him being conflicted about certain things whether it be showing his power, dealing with Zod, and ultimately killing Zod. The execution could've been better but I saw what they were going for and I appreciated it. Now if it doesn't change in the next one, then you and I may be more on the same page but don't tell me what I'm mistaking or missing when I said I see your point but I lean more towards the other argument. It doesn't mean I'm saying your argument is invalid or that I don't agree with some points. But we'll see in March breh

 

[Ain't That Something]

Where did I say he has to be perfect though? Like I said, he's good natured at heart, but that doesn't make him perfect. As I've said in every Man Of Steel thread, he doesn't had to succeed in saving everyone, people could've died, but he should've tried. The issue of Hitman is a perfect example because there's no way he can't save that one guy knowing what he has to do to save the others, but in that moment, the concern is there and it's hurting him. That's what separates him from Man Of Steel's Superman who is never shown to have that kind of concern as a city falls apart around him.



Again, being good natured at heart doesn't mean being perfect. It doesn't mean he has to be trusting of a person (Luthor) who he knows is incredibly dangerous and holds a personal vendetta against him. Because that would be naive, which is completely different and that's what you and Marty are mistaking him for when I say he's good natured and idealistic. Idealism isn't ignoring reality and look at life through rose-colored glasses, it's looking at reality and striving to make it better.

Again we disagree. You comparing an experience superman feats to one that has never been in battle. Against opponent that are his equal and better trained. And did you not see the pain the moment he snapped Zod neck tring to sAve that family. That choice was a break through moment for him as he realized the weight of a person life.

 

[Ain't That Something]

@TheGodling I realize that we will never agree. No one is arguing that Superman should be squeaky clean or a homicidal maniac or an anti hero. I'm saying I like when the character questions his moral and have inner conflict with his ideals because it humanizes him.

 

[MartyMcFly]

Again we disagree. You comparing an experience superman feats to one that has never been in battle. Against opponent that are his equal and better trained. And did you not see the pain the moment he snapped Zod neck tring to sAve that family. That choice was a break through moment for him as he realized the weight of a person life.

And that's how I saw it. Now if in March there's no payoff to that, then I'll cry foul and be on the side of @TheGodling If he hasn't learned anything just goes about chin checking dudes just because he can, okay then we can have that discussion but as of now, I got the point of it, I got the fact that he didn't want to do it but felt his hand was forced and had to make a tough decision but what I am saying is exactly this:

@TheGodling I realize that we will never agree. No one is arguing that Superman should be squeaky clean or a homicidal maniac or an anti hero. I'm saying I like when the character questions his moral and have inner conflict with his ideals because it humanizes him.

 

[TheGodling]

And what we are saying is that the film iterations of him have made him look at the world through rose colored glasses. That the stereotypical view of him is that whereas the actual character is different. I'm not going to speak for the homie but I know I'm talking about most mainstream versions of the character portray him that way and that just doesn't fly (yeah I know) anymore. Aside from the fact that it's boring it's also passé. Now his portrayal in man of steel was not perfect by any means but I appreciate the fact that it showed him being conflicted about certain things whether it be showing his power, dealing with Zod, and ultimately killing Zod. The execution could've been better but I saw what they were going for and I appreciated it. Now if it doesn't change in the next one, then you and I may be more on the same page but don't tell me what I'm mistaking or missing when I said I see your point but I lean more towards the other argument. It doesn't mean I'm saying your argument is invalid or that I don't agree with some points. But we'll see in March breh

And my point is exactly that Superman has existed for decades in media where they got him right. So it's no reason to give Man Of Steel a pass just because it evolves the character somewhat from the old Donner movies when it's at the same time a step down from the point on characterization we've seen in modern comics and cartoons.

Again we disagree. You comparing an experience superman feats to one that has never been in battle. Against opponent that are his equal and better trained. And did you not see the pain the moment he snapped Zod neck tring to sAve that family. That choice was a break through moment for him as he realized the weight of a person life.

Well, I don't object to Superman finding himself at a point where he has to kill (as many have said, he also killed Doomsday in the comics) but I do take issue with that scene because it was incredibly forced and as such terribly written. Like that scene basically stands completely on its own from the preceding battle and only seems to happen so they can have that moment where Supes kill him. The agenda is obvious and the fact it's handled so clumsily makes it awful. Which is something that might get lost in that shuffle but I absolutely hate everything about the writing in that movie, terrible, terrible screenplay.

@TheGodling I realize that we will never agree. No one is arguing that Superman should be squeaky clean or a homicidal maniac or an anti hero. I'm saying I like when the character questions his moral and have inner conflict with his ideals because it humanizes him.

And I don't mind that either, but there's a difference between humanizing a character, and beating him down to a point that it's bordering on pessimism. Snyder and Goyer completely crossed the line on that one. It would be foul against almost any superhero (I think I've asked Marty this before but I if he'd feel the same if they made a Spider-Man movie as grim and down-beaten as this), it's absolutely criminal to do it to Superman.

 

[MartyMcFly]

And my point is exactly that Superman has existed for decades in media where they got him right. So it's no reason to give Man Of Steel a pass just because it evolves the character somewhat from the old Donner movies when it's at the same time a step down from the point on characterization we've seen in modern comics and cartoons.



Well, I don't object to Superman finding himself at a point where he has to kill (as many have said, he also killed Doomsday in the comics) but I do take issue with that scene because it was incredibly forced and as such terribly written. Like that scene basically stands completely on its own from the preceding battle and only seems to happen so they can have that moment where Supes kill him. The agenda is obvious and the fact it's handled so clumsily makes it awful. Which is something that might get lost in that shuffle but I absolutely hate everything about the writing in that movie, terrible, terrible screenplay.



And I don't mind that either, but there's a difference between humanizing a character, and beating him down to a point that it's bordering on pessimism. Snyder and Goyer completely crossed the line on that one. It would be foul against almost any superhero (I think I've asked Marty this before but I if he'd feel the same if they made a Spider-Man movie as grim and down-beaten as this), it's absolutely criminal to do it to Superman.

I wouldn't mind if they made a spider man movie with that tone because there have been spider man arcs that are very grim and very down beaten, like Kraven's last hunt, but he remains the guy still fighting, even in a grave buried alive. Maximum Carnage was down beaten and even a bit cynical but that's not what made it a bad arc..in fact, it could've been a great arc if they handled it right and really made it a rebuke of guys like carnage and a larger point about Peter's way of doing things being the right way. A spider man story can take on any shape or form it needs to as long as it reinforces something about the main character.

And I agree with you on the screenplay front as far as execution and it being sloppy when it happened. Like I said, I appreciate what they were going for but it just didn't hit the mark.

 

[Kill Dat Noize]

I'm not going to speak for the homie but I know I'm talking about most mainstream versions of the character portray him that way and that just doesn't fly (yeah I know) anymore. Aside from the fact that it's boring it's also passé

did you find winter soldier boring and passe?