The Little Known Biblical Curse of Egypt by Isaiah

Koichos

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I’ll come back to the afterlife concepts but I just discovered a new belief in Judaism I wasn’t aware of

You not view the “devil” or Satan as intrinsically bad or “evil” but rather a “positive” agent of Gods will/plan

And basically Satan is The Accuser or The Adversary. His job is to observe mankind and test human faith, in service to God.

And also:

There is no concept of a Devil in Judaism, nor in Hell, nor in a heavenly being who is able to defy God successfully and live as an eternal antagonist to him

^ quotes from another blog

So if all the above is true, how to Judaism followers view the serpent in the Garden of eden or “fallen angels”?
There is no evidence from the Torah or the Nach for the existence of 'fallen angels'. And the 'snake' I consider to be an allegory for a person—i.e., the third member of the love triangle formed by it, the adam, and havvah.

We all know Satan or the Devil represents an “opposing force” to God because it’s clear in the Bible...
Only if you rely on translations and ignore what the original (Hebrew) text says.

Mini rant while I still wait on @Koichos to answer
We have just entered the most eventful month of the year this past weekend, so I can only post intermittently.
 
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There is no evidence from the Torah or the Nach for the existence of 'fallen angels'. And the 'snake' I consider to be an allegory for a person—i.e., the third member of the love triangle formed by it, the adam, and havvah.


Only if you rely on translations and ignore what the original (Hebrew) text says.


We have just entered the most eventful month of the year this past weekend, so I can only post intermittently.

Ok you tell me what the original Hebrew says about “original sin” and Good (God) vs Evil (Devil/Satan). Or what you’ve been taught at least.

And regarding this topic, the best example I can think of from the OT Is Job. Who is good and who is bad (if anything at all) in that story?

What is the message you take from it?

You a know the Torah stuff way better than me so I’d like to hear your interpretation (minus the Jewish mysticism and extra stuff) when you’re not busy.
 

MMS

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There is no evidence from the Torah or the Nach for the existence of 'fallen angels'. And the 'snake' I consider to be an allegory for a person—i.e., the third member of the love triangle formed by it, the adam, and havvah.


Only if you rely on translations and ignore what the original (Hebrew) text says.


We have just entered the most eventful month of the year this past weekend, so I can only post intermittently.
im glad you said this

because its become painfully clear that a great deal of the stories about these characters are like the same "pharisees leaven" that Jesus said to avoid

the more you entertain ideas like that the more you move into Esaus herd instead of Jacobs herd.

In the "Do you believe in Aliens" thread I insinuated the animals are the real aliens. What if Jacob knew something about the creatures of earth that we dont?

Why do this:

Genesis 30:25-43

25 And it came to pass, when Rachel had born Joseph, that Jacob said unto Laban, Send me away, that I may go unto mine own place, and to my country.

26 Give me my wives and my children, for whom I have served thee, and let me go: for thou knowest my service which I have done thee.

27 And Laban said unto him, I pray thee, if I have found favour in thine eyes, tarry: for I have learned by experience that the Lord hath blessed me for thy sake.

28 And he said, Appoint me thy wages, and I will give it.

29 And he said unto him, Thou knowest how I have served thee, and how thy cattle was with me.

30 For it was little which thou hadst before I came, and it is now increased unto a multitude; and the Lord hath blessed thee since my coming: and now when shall I provide for mine own house also?

31 And he said, What shall I give thee? And Jacob said, Thou shalt not give me any thing: if thou wilt do this thing for me, I will again feed and keep thy flock.

32 I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire.

33 So shall my righteousness answer for me in time to come, when it shall come for my hire before thy face: every one that is not speckled and spotted among the goats, and brown among the sheep, that shall be counted stolen with me.


34 And Laban said, Behold, I would it might be according to thy word.

35 And he removed that day the he goats that were ringstraked and spotted, and all the she goats that were speckled and spotted, and every one that had some white in it, and all the brown among the sheep, and gave them into the hand of his sons.

36 And he set three days' journey betwixt himself and Jacob: and Jacob fed the rest of Laban's flocks.

37 And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods.

38 And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink.

39 And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted.

40 And Jacob did separate the lambs, and set the faces of the flocks toward the ringstraked, and all the brown in the flock of Laban; and he put his own flocks by themselves, and put them not unto Laban's cattle.

41 And it came to pass, whensoever the stronger cattle did conceive, that Jacob laid the rods before the eyes of the cattle in the gutters, that they might conceive among the rods.

42 But when the cattle were feeble, he put them not in: so the feebler were Laban's, and the stronger Jacob's.


43 And the man increased exceedingly, and had much cattle, and maidservants, and menservants, and camels, and asses.

to me this passage while strange is extremely telling spiritually

why such specific cattle? @Marks if I use D2 as a lense....ringstraked, speckled, and spotted = concentration, oak sage, vigor auras :jbhmm:

pride came before the fall :ohhh:
 

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im glad you said this

because its become painfully clear that a great deal of the stories about these characters are like the same "pharisees leaven" that Jesus said to avoid

the more you entertain ideas like that the more you move into Esaus herd instead of Jacobs herd.

In the "Do you believe in Aliens" thread I insinuated the animals are the real aliens. What if Jacob knew something about the creatures of earth that we dont?

Why do this:

Genesis 30:25-43



to me this passage while strange is extremely telling spiritually

why such specific cattle? @Marks if I use D2 as a lense....ringstraked, speckled, and spotted = concentration, oak sage, vigor auras :jbhmm:

pride came before the fall :ohhh:

I think the issue here is explaining what “demons” are and how they came to be.

People use the fallen angels or aliens story as an explanation

Clearly people who wrote the Bible believed in a lot of stuff

You with all your Egyptian studies probably would be the last person to NOT believe in stuff like this

Or is it all an “illusion” :hubie:

@Koichos seems to just be afraid of the unknown because of the religious implications so he remains neutral

But for me if Jesus said demons/the devil or “Satan” exists, I’m believing it. :manny:

I mean Jesus sent demons into pigs and that’s why Muslims don’t eat pork right? :skip:
 

MMS

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I think the issue here is explaining what “demons” are and how they came to be.

People use the fallen angels or aliens story as an explanation

Clearly people who wrote the Bible believed in a lot of stuff

You with all your Egyptian studies probably would be the last person to NOT believe in stuff like this

Or is it all an “illusion” :hubie:

@Koichos seems to just be afraid of the unknown because of the religious implications so he remains neutral

But for me if Jesus said demons/the devil or “Satan” exists, I’m believing it. :manny:

I mean Jesus sent demons into pigs and that’s why Muslims don’t eat pork right? :skip:
i think that what you see is your truth

so if you believe in demons, there is a good chance you are said demon

thats why im not in a rush to use that description...but do you. To me God said he made whales, birds, beasts, creeping things and THEN man in his image...male and female created he them.

remember mormons thought black people were devils when they encountered them

and for the better part of muslim history, they had no problem treating all black people as a commodity

So the ramification of claiming someone is not human, is worse than you realize and also an early form of racism

IE when they went out to "slay dragons" was it komodo or was it your black ass? :skip: hanging men, setting a fiery serpent on a pole etcc read between the lines

just because they believe things then doesnt mean its set in stone (lots wife)

Egyptians believed the term "god" was a living being not so much this all encompassing deity, they just had names for all encompassing deities. Thats why monotheism was confusing for many civilizations when it was introduced to them.

also the extra-christian creation of angel and demon warfare implies polytheism, and as per the Book of Judges the sin of polytheism delivers you into the hands of this person whom I have identified as Nimrod
According to biblical sources, Cushan-rishathaim (Hebrew: כּוּשַׁן רִשְׁעָתַיִם Ḵūšān Riš‘āṯayim, "twice-evil Kushyte") was king of Aram-Naharaim, or Northwest Mesopotamia, and the first oppressor of the Israelites after their settlement in Canaan. In the Book of Judges, God delivers the Israelites into his hand for eight years (Judges 3:8) as a punishment for polytheism. However, when the people of Israel "called to Jehovah", He saved them through Othniel, son of Kenaz (Judges 3:9).

Scholars have proposed several explanations for Biblical accounts related to this ruler.[1]

'Cushan' or 'Chushan' may indicate Cushyte origins. 'Rishathaim' means 'double-wickedness'("resha" רשע - "evil" or "wickedness" + "im" יים - doubling suffix). The latter was likely a pejorative appellation used by his Hebrew foes, rather than what this King called himself. Use of it may indicate that the Hebrews had concrete reasons to bear him a grudge, beyond the meager information given in the surviving Biblical text.[2]

Which makes sense, as once you believe in "magic" you might as well be apart of his camp. And Angels/Archangels according to the video games are associated with sorceresses.

just remember, the "new" christians werent ex-jews but rather ex-pagans. So they were trying to learn about this new character Jesus while grappling with their old beliefs. And the Gospels as you read them were not written by Jesus but by Paul and the Apostles from memory.

Now as you know I believe in Jesus for a very different reason than most christians/jews and closer to the belief of Muslims (because of Joseph)
 
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i think that what you see is your truth

Now as you know I believe in Jesus for a very different reason than most christians/jews and closer to the belief of Muslims (because of Joseph)

I believe there is objective truth not “my truth” :manny:

And no I don’t know about your “different views of Jesus” :ohhh:

You can explain it. And how Joseph factors in.

And the one thing I think you DONT understand like me is what the Quran teaches :ahh:

So I doubt you believe in the “Muslims view of Jesus”:hubie:
 
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MMS

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I believe there is objective truth not “my truth” :manny:

And no I don’t know about your “different views of Jesus” :ohhh:

You can explain it. And how Joseph factors in.

And the one thing I think you DONT understand like me is what the Quran teaches :ahh:

So I doubt you believe in the “Muslims view of Jesus”:hubie:
i think the creation of certain beings is beyond our understanding

i think that the OT Joseph is very much linked to the NT Joseph (his roots go over the wall)

once again, you are a blood drinker by admission (Jesus blood washes away sins correct?)

While I understand why you feel the way you do, you are firmly an Amalekite in my eyes

the miracle of Jesus birth and his resurrection are my only reasons for following Jesus. And the infancy narrative is right at the heart of that. Many christians believe in demons when the same Jesus they say they follow is the one who casts them out.

So to me, you are demon infested unawares. Hopefully you spend more time in reflection of these posts than continuing the long diatribe. For your health and sanity
 

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i think the creation of certain beings is beyond our understanding

i think that the OT Joseph is very much linked to the NT Joseph (his roots go over the wall)

once again, you are a blood drinker by admission (Jesus blood washes away sins correct?)

While I understand why you feel the way you do, you are firmly an Amalekite in my eyes

the miracle of Jesus birth and his resurrection are my only reasons for following Jesus. And the infancy narrative is right at the heart of that. Many christians believe in demons when the same Jesus they say they follow is the one who casts them out.

So to me, you are demon infested unawares. Hopefully you spend more time in reflection of these posts than continuing the long diatribe. For your health and sanity

I dunno it just seems like you think the Bible is one big comic book for your entertainment

Or a puzzle you’re trying to solve for your own gratification

I’m not debating for fun sake although this is “the Coli” and I don’t take many of my posts or your posts as seriously as you’d think.

I’m here to learn. Seems like that isn’t the case for others :manny:

Hopefully other “blood drinkers” lurking the threads understand where I’m coming from :banderas:
 

MMS

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I dunno it just seems like you think the Bible is one big comic book for your entertainment

Or a puzzle you’re trying to solve for your own gratification

I’m not debating for fun sake although this is “the Coli” and I don’t take many of my posts or your posts as seriously as you’d think.

I’m here to learn. Seems like that isn’t the case for others :manny:

Hopefully other “blood drinkers” lurking the threads understand where I’m coming from :banderas:
I’m not the one saying a large swath of it doesn’t matter

You are

To me even when I was a child I heard the message in the OT even if I didn’t fully comprehend it. I think it’s comical that you see me that way but not yourself. Which is what Jesus actually calls us to do(fix ourselves first)
 

Koichos

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funny you say that "its clear in the bible and Jesus speaks on it" (pbuh)

actually "Satan" is only mentioned as a descriptor rather than a personal name in the OLD testament . . .

whereas in the hebrew texts it just means "adversary".
It may interest you to know that the common noun שָָׂטָָן saṭan is used even in reference to human beings:
וַיֹּֽאמֶר דָּוִד מַה־לִּי וְלָכֶם בְּנֵי צְרוּיָה כִּי־תִֽהְיוּ־לִֽי הַיּוֹם לְשָָׂטָָן הַיּוֹם יוּמַת אִישׁ בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל כִּי הֲלוֹא יָדַֽעְתִּי כִּי הַיּוֹם אֲנִי־מֶֽלֶךְ עַל־יִשְׂרָאֵל׃
Davîd said, 'What is [the dispute] between me and you, Tz'rûyah's children, that you have become an opponent to me today? Is any Yîsr'éli to be executed today? Do I not know that, today, I am Yîsra'él's king?' (Sh'mûél Part II 19:23)

וַיָּֽקֶם יְְיָָ ׀ שָָׂטָָן לִשְׁלֹמֹה אֵת הֲדַד הָאֲדֹמִי מִזֶּֽרַע הַמֶּֽלֶךְ הוּא בֶּאֱדוֹם׃
Then Adοnai stirred up an opponent to Sh'lοmοh—namely, Hadad the Adοmi, a member of Edom's Royal Family. (M'lachîm Part I 11:14)

. . . וַיָּֽקֶם אֱלֹקִים לוֹ שָָׂטָָן אֶת־רְזוֹן בֶּן־אֶלְיָדָע אֲשֶׁר בָּרַח מֵאֵת הֲדַדְעֶֽזֶר מֶֽלֶךְ־צוֹבָה אֲדֹנָיו
וַיְהִי שָָׂטָָן לְיִשְׂרָאֵל כָּל־יְמֵי שְׁלֹמֹה וְאֶת־הָרָעָה אֲשֶׁר הֲדָד וַיָּֽקָץ בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל וַיִּמְלֹךְ עַל־אֲרָם׃
23Once again, Elohim stirred up an opponent to him [i.e., to Sh'lοmοh]—namely, R'zοn son of El'yada, who had run away from his master, Hadad'ezer, the king of Tzοvah . . .
25he continued to be an opponent to Yîsra'él for the rest of Sh'lοmοh's life, along with the harm that Hadad [the Adοmi][had caused]—he detested Yîsra'él and was sovereign over Syria. (M'lachîm Part I 11:23, 11:25)
 
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MMS

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It may interest you to know that the common noun שָָׂטָָן saṭan is used even in reference to human beings:
you have interesting timing...remember when you said a mixed rabble came with Moses?

@Marks my recent paladin :wow: made in the image of Hadad

he has control over two bears with his beast axe (still holy bolt/redemption :whew:)

giphy.gif
:banderas:

800px-Ramman.png


its interesting to me that David was forewarned by Goliath that the birds of the air would pick his bones implying that it was already being done to Goliath? :jbhmm:

one thing that is clear to me about the philistines is that they "ate" their God via sacrifices if the old myths are true...why would David want any part of that?

@Koichos also an aside, is the mythological Hadad related to the Hadad son of Ishmael?
 
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MMS

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@010101 @ba'al remember this post :banderas: the circle of life @Marks that egyptian druid-like language starting to resonate weirdly

Prometheus the sloth "i must burn in the fires of olympus"


Isaiah 49:26

26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the Lord am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.
 

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so while this idea is fresh in my head I want to expound on it because I know that the topic has generated both positive and negative feedback

@Marks @Koichos @DoubleClutch @Complexion

and thats the line from David in Psalm 82 saying "Ye are Gods" but will die like mere men
T'hîllîm 82:6 reads
אֲנִי־אָמַרְתִּי אֱלֹהִים אַתֶּם וּבְנֵי עֶלְיוֹן כֻּלְּכֶם׃
I have said: 'You are god-like, all of you are sons of the Supreme One'.
The term אַַתֶֶּם attem ('you') is plural, and so are בְְּנֵֵי b'nei ('sons of...') and כֻֻּלְְּכֶֶם kul'cham ('all of you').

Now, whom is Asaf addressing in this T'hîllah? The Jewish judges, as evidenced by its opening verse:
מִזְמוֹר לְאָסָף
אֱלֹהִים נִצָּב בַּעֲדַת־אֵל בְּקֶרֶב אֱלֹהִים יִשְׁפֹּט׃
A miz'mor ('hymn') by Asaf...
God stands in the Heavenly tribunal; among the judges will He pronounce judgement. (T'hîllîm 82:1)
In verse 1, the second אֱלֹהִים is ḥōl ('mundane' - i.e., not referring to God) and means 'judges'.
In verse 6, the judges are called
אֱלֹהִים ('god-like') because judging is a Heavenly prerogative.


its interesting to me that David was forewarned by Goliath that the birds of the air would pick his bones implying that it was already being done to Goliath? :jbhmm:

one thing that is clear to me about the philistines is that they "ate" their God via sacrifices if the old myths are true...why would David want any part of that?
Oh! The lengthy passage that I was forced to remove from post #415 (due to errors) involved the P'lîshṭîm:
וַיִּקְצְפוּ עָלָיו שָׂרֵי פְלִשְׁתִּים וַיֹּֽאמְרוּ לוֹ שָׂרֵי פְלִשְׁתִּים הָשֵׁב אֶת־הָאִישׁ וְיָשֹׁב אֶל־מְקוֹמוֹ אֲשֶׁר הִפְקַדְתּוֹ שָׁם וְלֹא־יֵרֵד עִמָּֽנוּ בַּמִּלְחָמָה וְלֹא־יִֽהְיֶה־לָּֽנוּ לְשָָׂטָָן בַּמִּלְחָמָה וּבַמֶּה יִתְרַצֶּה זֶה אֶל־אֲדֹנָיו הֲלוֹא בְּרָאשֵׁי הָאֲנָשִׁים הָהֵם׃ הֲלוֹא־זֶה דָוִד אֲשֶׁר יַעֲנוּ־לוֹ בַּמְּחֹלוֹת לֵאמֹר הִכָּה שָׁאוּל בַּֽאֲלָפָיו וְדָוִד בְּרִבְבֹתָו׃
4The P'lîshṭîm's officers grew enraged [with Achîsh] and the P'lîshṭîm's officers said to him: Release this man [Davîd,] and let him go back to the place that you assigned to him; he should not join us in the battle in case he becomes an opponent to us in the battle! What can this one use to ingratiate himself with his master better than those men's [i.e., our] heads? 5Is this not Davîd, whom they acclaimed in song with the words 'Sha'ûl slaughtered in the thousands—but Davîd [slaughtered] in the tens of thousands?' (Sh'mûél Part I 29:4-5)

one thing that is clear to me about the philistines is that they "ate" their God via sacrifices if the old myths are true...
It seems to me that the P'lîshṭîm had no understanding of a single God and so they would naturally have spoken about 'gods' in the plural (even when referencing the God of Yîsra'él, as in Sh'mûél Part I 4:6-8).

@Koichos also an aside, is the mythological Hadad related to the Hadad son of Ishmael?
Yîtz'haḳ and Yîshma'él are paternal half-brothers (B'réshît 16:15, 21:2), and an 'Adοmi' is a male descendant of 'Edοm', an alternative name for Ya'aov's twin-brother 'Éssav (ibid., 25:30, 36:1), Yîtz'haḳ's eldest son (25:25).
 

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Ok you tell me what the original Hebrew says about “original sin”
The concept of 'original sin' is alien to Jewish thought and absent from our Holy Scriptures.

and Good vs Evil.
The Hebrew terms טוֺֹב ṭov ('good') and רַַע ra' ('evil'), or equivalently צַַדִִּיק tzaddîḳ ('righteous') and רָָשָָׁע rasha' ('wicked'), should not be considered as absolutes: no man is ever totally 'good' OR thoroughly 'bad'—life is not like that; we are all somewhere in between. צַַדִִּיק and רָָשָָׁע are used in the Torah as relative terms, for example:
...כִּי־יִֽהְיֶה רִיב בֵּין אֲנָשִׁים וְנִגְּשׁוּ אֶל־הַמִּשְׁפָּט וּשְׁפָטוּם וְהִצְדִּֽיקוּ אֶת־הַצַּדִּיק וְהִרְשִֽׁיעוּ אֶת־הָרָשָׁע
Should there arise a dispute between some men and they bring the matter before a Court and you judge them, ruling in favor of the 'tzaddîḳ' [i.e., the party who is in the right] and against the 'rasha' ' [i.e., the party who is in the wrong]... (D'varîm 25:1)
does not suggest that the צַַדִִּיק tzaddîḳ (innocent party) is a 'complete' saint and the רָָשָָׁע rasha' (guilty party) is a 'total' monster: the words צַדִּיק tzaddîḳ and רָשָׁע rasha' are obviously used as relative terms meaning 'the one who is innocent/in the right' and 'the one who is guilty/in the wrong' of the matter before the Court at that time.

It must, however, be noted that 'good' and 'evil' are not always the most suitable translations of
טוֺֹב ṭov and רַַע ra', especially when used together in the combination טוֺֹב וָָרָָע ṭov vara' (which occurs five times in the Torah: B'réshît 2:9, 2:17, 3:5, 3:22; D'varîm 1:39), where 'right' and 'wrong' are much more appropriate translations:

...וַיֹּֽאמֶר ׀ יְְיָָ אֱלֹקִים הֵן הָֽאָדָם הָיָה כְּאַחַד מִמֶּֽנּוּ לָדַֽעַת טוֹב וָרָע
Then Adοnai-God said, 'See—man has become like the One among us, [having the ability] to distinguish between right and wrong... (B'réshît 3:22)

Good (God) vs Evil (Devil/Satan).
The saṭan is not inherently evil; it is God's servant—an 'angel'. And the book Iyyοv makes it abundantly clear that the saṭan is completely under God's control and can do nothing without His approval and explicit orders.

And regarding this topic, the best example I can think of from the OT Is Job. Who is good and who is bad (if anything at all) in that story?

What is the message you take from it?
Iyyοv tells the story of a man who is tested to the very limits of human endurance by the saṭan—with God's approval. Refer now to my post #115 and see what you can deduce from the way the story begins and ends.
 
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DoubleClutch

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The concept of 'original sin' is alien to Jewish thought and absent from our Holy Scriptures.


The Hebrew terms
טוֺֹב ṭov ('good') and רַַע ra' ('evil'), or equivalently צַַדִִּיק tzaddîḳ ('righteous') and רָָשָָׁע rasha' ('wicked'), should not be considered as absolutes: no man is ever totally 'good' OR thoroughly 'bad'—life is not like that; we are all somewhere in between. צַַדִִּיק and רָָשָָׁע are used in the Torah as relative terms, for example:

does not suggest that the
צַַדִִּיק tzaddîḳ (innocent party) is a 'complete' saint and the רָָשָָׁע rasha' (guilty party) is a 'total' monster: the words צַדִּיק tzaddîḳ and רָשָׁע rasha' are obviously used as relative terms meaning 'the one who is innocent/in the right' and 'the one who is guilty/in the wrong' of the matter before the Court at that time.

It must, however, be noted that 'good' and 'evil' are not always the most suitable translations of
טוֺֹב ṭov and רַַע ra', especially when used together in the combination טוֺֹב וָָרָָע ṭov vara' (which occurs five times in the Torah: B'réshît 2:9, 2:17, 3:5, 3:22; D'varîm 1:39), where 'right' and 'wrong' are much more appropriate translations:



The saṭan is not inherently evil; it is God's servant—an 'angel'. And the book Iyyοv makes it abundantly clear that the saṭan is completely under God's control and can do nothing without His approval and explicit orders.



Iyyοv tells the story of a man who is tested to the very limits of human endurance by the saṭan—with God's approval. Refer now to my post #115 and see what you can deduce from the way the story begins and ends.

Why does the Torah distinguish between Good and bad actions in the characters in its stories. If they are the same then what’s the point?

What lesson is it telling when the repercussions of “evil” vs “good” actions (in gods eyes) are negative vs positive?

To avoid the terminology/translating debate. Just focus on the understanding of the basic concept.

Why does god make the distinction when calling a “spirit” evil? What does this even mean to you?

Can the God of the Torah do evil in your opinion or definition of the word?

Be carful how you answer....... @MMS is reading :russ:
 
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