Ta-Nehisi Coates dropping more gems on why blacks still getting screwed

[David_TheMan]

You on some wack historical confusion. It seems you need a few corrections to your historical ignorance.

That means ni--er citizenship. Now, by God, I'll put him through. That is the last speech he will ever give.
Click to expand...​

That's John Wilkes Booth, as recounted by co-conspirator Lewis Powell, 2 days before the assassination. Lincoln had just given a speech from the White House saying that he wanted Black people to have the right to vote. You want to backtrack now?


1) John Wilkes Booth had been a Southern sympathizer and a slavery sympathizer since the beginning of the Civil War - he called their secession "heroic". So his hate obvoiusly wasn't a commentary on Lincoln's politics if it was already there when Lincoln had barely stepped into office. Northerners were calling for him to be banned from the stage (he was a famous actor), and there are receipts.

2) Lincoln wasn't supposed to be assassinated alone - it was part of a combined plot to assassinate Lincoln, Ulysses Grant, Andrew Johnson, and SecState William Stewart all at the same time. The guy who was supposed to assassinate Johnson (George Atzerodt) chickened out last second (saying he had only agreed to kidnapping, not killing), while the ones who were assassinating Stewart (Lewis Powell and David Herald) shot and seriously wounded him, but he managed to recover. Grant was supposed to attend the play with Lincoln, but he and his wife backed out, so he ended up okay too. The whole point of the plot was to cripple the Union government and give the South a chance to reassert independence while the North was in disarray. Since Johnson was a Democrat and Stewart was probably the most respected politician in Republican party history at the time, it obviously wasn't a commentary on Lincoln's political style.

3) He wasn't assassinated "after the war". Booth came up with the whole plan and had been recruiting people for months. Lee had surrendered HIS army 5 days before Booth was able to carry his plan out, but Lee did NOT surrender for the Confederacy. Johnston's troops continued fighting in North Carolina, Taylor's troops kept fighting in Alabama and Mississippi, Forrest's men were still fighting in Tennessee and elsewhere, and Taylor and Watie still had forces west of the Mississippi. The rest of the Confederate surrenders other than Lee didn't happen until late April, May, and June, and all were taken by President Johnson, NOT Lincoln. The end of the Civil War is generally agreed to be June 2, when Gen. Kirby Smith surrendered his forces, meaning that the last Confederate army had given up.

4) Booth's desire to kill Lincoln, Grant, Johnson, and Seward had nothing to do with "Lincoln was a crooked politician". The original plot wasn't even to kill Lincoln, it was to kidnap him and hold him ransom until the North agreed to release all Southern POWs, thereby prolonging the war and giving the South a chance to retain slavery. He tried to carry it out on March 17 but got thrown off by a change in plans by Lincoln. After Lincoln's quote about giving Black people the vote, he changed to assassination, and wanted to take out the entire Northern leadership to give the South one last chance.

5) Lincoln was insanely beloved after his death. He had decided to free the slaves, he had expressed desire to give Black people the vote, and he had helped extend an insanely bloody 4-year war nothing like America had ever experienced - so of course he was going to have haters. But the outpouring of love for him across the North after his death was undeniable.

Like I said Lincoln wasn't killed because of black citizenship. 13th and 15th addressed those questions.
Also lets not act as if Lincoln gave damn about the black man. That is historic reivisionism at its finest. He didn't like blacks nor care for them except as using them as props to further his political mechanations. This is a man who was planning to ship all blacks out of the fukking country. This is the president that supported the Corwin amendment (bill that if not for the very act of the southern rebellion itself would have passed and made black slavery in the US consititionally protected).

1) Never said Booth wasn't a southerner , rebel sympathizer or anything else. Strawman
2) Don't care who else was supposed to be assasinated. The war was over, the south was ravaged economically and militarily. What Booth did was nothing more than last ditch effort of secessionist extremist who were mad. There was no way the south could ever hope to reassert its independece even with the death of Lincoln, Grant, and other higher ranking government officials. Mainly because it had been destroyed so throughly.
3) He was assasinated after the war. The war had been over the last year and all the union high ranking officials knew it. Those with means had been preparing to leave or already had left and went to south america or some of the carribean islands. Others fought on to the end, but it was over and was only a matter of time.
4) His plot and what it originally meant to do has no relevance whatsoever to what I have stated.
5) Lincoln was not insanely beloved after his death. That is historical revisionism He was widely hated. Northerners hated him for drafting them and sending the military to murder those in the north who were protesting the draft. Others hated him for suspending habeaus corpus and arresting his political enemies. Newspapers hated him for arresting journalists and trying to silence the press. There are actually New York Times articles praising his death. There are reports in the North of there being celebrations of his death and US troops dragging celebrators out and killing them in the streets.

At his death Lincoln was actually one of the most hated presidents in US history.
Evidence for The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln
How Lincoln was hated!

Lincoln was so hated that when he died some opportunistic politicians saw it as the perfect time to restore his image and make him some type of national hero to help the GOP.
Like I said earlier they actually engineered a traveling procession for his body in the hopes of generating spectacle.

Also please remember Lincoln is the president that said if he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would. Theis is a man who supported the Illinois legislation to ban blacks from moving there, and worse.

 

[DrX]

BS aint saying nothing...just the same cliche bullshyt blah blah blah "min wage....blah healthcare...blah..lets all get along"

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Like I said Lincoln wasn't killed because of black citizenship. 13th and 15th addressed those questions.

15th Amendment was FOUR YEARS LATER. That question obviously hadn't been addressed yet when Lincoln was killed.

Also lets not act as if Lincoln gave damn about the black man. That is historic reivisionism at its finest. He didn't like blacks nor care for them except as using them as props to further his political mechanations. This is a man who was planning to ship all blacks out of the fukking country. This is the president that supported the Corwin amendment (bill that if not for the very act of the southern rebellion itself would have passed and made black slavery in the US consititionally protected).

Who the hell said anything about what Lincoln did or didn't care about? The point is that he was planning to give Black men the vote, and that's why Booth wanted him dead. Lincoln's personal reasons for it are irrelevant.

1) Never said Booth wasn't a southerner , rebel sympathizer or anything else. Strawman

Except for the fact that his rebel sympathies are WHY Booth wanted Lincoln dead. It's not a "strawman" - I'm giving you the actual reason Booth wanted to kill Lincoln.

2) Don't care who else was supposed to be assasinated. The war was over, the south was ravaged economically and militarily. What Booth did was nothing more than last ditch effort of secessionist extremist who were mad. There was no way the south could ever hope to reassert its independece even with the death of Lincoln, Grant, and other higher ranking government officials. Mainly because it had been destroyed so throughly.

Yes, I agree with it being the last ditch effort of a mad secessionist extremist. What does that have to do with the claim that it had nothing to do with slavery or Black people or that is was just because Lincoln was a "crooked politician"?

3) He was assasinated after the war. The war had been over the last year and all the union high ranking officials knew it. Those with means had been preparing to leave or already had left and went to south america or some of the carribean islands. Others fought on to the end, but it was over and was only a matter of time.

Sorry, but that's just bullshyt. The South was still fighting.

4) His plot and what it originally meant to do has no relevance whatsoever to what I have stated.

Except that it tells you the actual reason Lincoln died.

5) Lincoln was not insanely beloved after his death. That is historical revisionism He was widely hated. Northerners hated him for drafting them and sending the military to murder those in the north who were protesting the draft. Others hated him for suspending habeaus corpus and arresting his political enemies. Newspapers hated him for arresting journalists and trying to silence the press. There are actually New York Times articles praising his death. There are reports in the North of there being celebrations of his death and US troops dragging celebrators out and killing them in the streets.

At his death Lincoln was actually one of the most hated presidents in US history.
Evidence for The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln
How Lincoln was hated!

When you're trying to give receipts, you probably shouldn't provide links that say the exact OPPOSITE of what you were trying to claim:

"It was only with his death that Lincoln's popularity soared. Lincoln was slain on Good Friday, and pastors who had for four years criticized Lincoln from their pulpits rewrote their Easter Sunday sermons to remember him as an American Moses who brought his people out of slavery but was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land. Secretary of War Stanton arranged a funeral procession for Lincoln's body on a continental scale, with the slain president now a Republican martyr to freedom, traversing in reverse his train journey from Springfield to the nation's capital four years earlier. Seeing Lincoln's body in his casket, with soldiers in blue standing guard, hundreds of thousands of Northerners forgot their earlier distrust and took away instead an indelible sentimental image of patriotic sacrifice, one that cemented the dominance of the Republican Party for the rest of their lives and their children's."

"It wasn’t until it became clear that the North was going to win the war that the tide of opinion started to change. His murder completely changed how people viewed him from then onward (thus began his rise to “sainthood.”)"


What I said was that was that Lincoln was insanely beloved after his death. And the links YOU just gave say the exact same thing. Thanks for the support.

Lincoln was so hated that when he died some opportunistic politicians saw it as the perfect time to restore his image and make him some type of national hero to help the GOP.
Like I said earlier they actually engineered a traveling procession for his body in the hopes of generating spectacle.

You realize that claim doesn't make any sense whatsoever?

Also please remember Lincoln is the president that said if he could preserve the Union without freeing a single slave he would. Theis is a man who supported the Illinois legislation to ban blacks from moving there, and worse.

And what does that have anything to do with what we said?

From what I've read of Lincoln's own personal feelings (personal letters to friends and family, not things he said to get elected), Lincoln was certainly racist, but certainly against slavery. He cared more about Black people than most White people of his age did, but not as much as a lot of the major abolitionists did.

But again, what the hell does that have anything to do with all the historical bullshyt you keep spewing that's obviously factually wrong?

 

[Marc Spector]

Im confused as to how class doesn't correlate with race, when absolute capitalism is what created the transatlantic slave trade in the first place.

 

[yungblkboy8264]

Im confused as to how class doesn't correlate with race, when absolute capitalism is what created the transatlantic slave trade in the first place.

Because there's an impoverished ethnic under-class in most countries. Not just blacks in white countries.
However, I'm not saying capitalism isn't racist in America, at the same time.

 

[Marc Spector]

Because there's an impoverished ethnic under-class in most countries. Not just blacks in white countries.
However, I'm not saying capitalism isn't racist in America, at the same time.

Ah ok. I follow. Excellent point.

I do think capitalism is a STRONG pillar that supports racism. Quite possibly the strongest. Economic and class equality would HEAVILY damage racism. I think we cant be so absolutist to say "well if a marked increase in socialistic policies doesn't IMMEDIATELY fix racism, throw it in the bushes!! "

Because at that point, youre really asking for a revolution that we cannot win. Or a departure from a country we helped built.

 

[yungblkboy8264]

Ah ok. I follow. Excellent point.

I do think capitalism is a STRONG pillar that supports racism. Quite possibly the strongest. Economic and class equality would HEAVILY damage racism. I think we cant be so absolutist to say "well if a marked increase in socialistic policies doesn't IMMEDIATELY fix racism, throw it in the bushes!! "

Because at that point, youre really asking for a revolution that we cannot win. Or a departure from a country we helped built.

Real shyt. That way of thinking is too impatient. I'm a socialist because I don't care about how it was implemented by Stalin, Mao, or Castro. I don't think my own success, at the expense of someone else, is more important than having a strong economy for all. Capitalism, Fascism, Conservatism and Republican rhetoric says that it doesn't matter if there's millions in poverty, as long as I'm doing fine but I have enough sight to see the problem with that.

 

[David_TheMan]

15th Amendment was FOUR YEARS LATER. That question obviously hadn't been addressed yet when Lincoln was killed.




Who the hell said anything about what Lincoln did or didn't care about? The point is that he was planning to give Black men the vote, and that's why Booth wanted him dead. Lincoln's personal reasons for it are irrelevant.




Except for the fact that his rebel sympathies are WHY Booth wanted Lincoln dead. It's not a "strawman" - I'm giving you the actual reason Booth wanted to kill Lincoln.




Yes, I agree with it being the last ditch effort of a mad secessionist extremist. What does that have to do with the claim that it had nothing to do with slavery or Black people or that is was just because Lincoln was a "crooked politician"?




Sorry, but that's just bullshyt. The South was still fighting.




Except that it tells you the actual reason Lincoln died.




When you're trying to give receipts, you probably shouldn't provide links that say the exact OPPOSITE of what you were trying to claim:

"It was only with his death that Lincoln's popularity soared. Lincoln was slain on Good Friday, and pastors who had for four years criticized Lincoln from their pulpits rewrote their Easter Sunday sermons to remember him as an American Moses who brought his people out of slavery but was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land. Secretary of War Stanton arranged a funeral procession for Lincoln's body on a continental scale, with the slain president now a Republican martyr to freedom, traversing in reverse his train journey from Springfield to the nation's capital four years earlier. Seeing Lincoln's body in his casket, with soldiers in blue standing guard, hundreds of thousands of Northerners forgot their earlier distrust and took away instead an indelible sentimental image of patriotic sacrifice, one that cemented the dominance of the Republican Party for the rest of their lives and their children's."

"It wasn’t until it became clear that the North was going to win the war that the tide of opinion started to change. His murder completely changed how people viewed him from then onward (thus began his rise to “sainthood.”)"


What I said was that was that Lincoln was insanely beloved after his death. And the links YOU just gave say the exact same thing. Thanks for the support.





You realize that claim doesn't make any sense whatsoever?





And what does that have anything to do with what we said?

From what I've read of Lincoln's own personal feelings (personal letters to friends and family, not things he said to get elected), Lincoln was certainly racist, but certainly against slavery. He cared more about Black people than most White people of his age did, but not as much as a lot of the major abolitionists did.

But again, what the hell does that have anything to do with all the historical bullshyt you keep spewing that's obviously factually wrong?

Yes it was later, just another reason why you can say Lincoln's death had nothing to do with giving blacks the right to vote.

No Lincoln close to his death was planning to ship blacks to africa.
Did Lincoln Want to Ship Black People Back to Africa?

Wilkes didn't kill Lincoln to stop black men from voting. That is BS He killeed him because he was a southern radical. Period.

The South was fighting, but the war was dead. The last year of the war the Confederate government had lost the support of its own people. You had mass desertion on the southern side, a overtaxed military, a worthless currency, a ruined infrastructure, a successful naval blockade, and mass sickness. The war was effectively over, which is again why you had some of the diehards planning their escape and leaving.

You should probably read the links I posted instead of reading one link and stopping after one paragraph. If you read them you would see posts of articles at the time of his death celebrating it.

Lincoln wasn't insanely beloved after his death. It wasn't actually until the 1920s and years of public school indocrtination of "honest abe" myth that Lincoln began to become "beloved" in the US. Like I said he was mired in scandal throughout his life and largely hated during his presidency and at the time of his death.

From what I've read of Lincoln, he didn't give a damn about blacks or slavery in that it hampered his ability to lead a combined US. Which is why he wrote if he could keep the union together without freeing a single slave he would. Which is why he supported the Corwin amendment to keep the union intact which would have Consittutionally protected slavery.

Lincoln wanted power, he cared nothing of blacks and of their plight of slavery except from the typical racist northern anger at unfair labor competition that they faced from slavery being combined in the south with rabid industrialization.

 

[David_TheMan]

Im confused as to how class doesn't correlate with race, when absolute capitalism is what created the transatlantic slave trade in the first place.

Capitalism is voluntary exchange of goods and services, to claim it was created with the slave trade is idiotic at best.
Especially when the main participants of the slave trade weren't capitalist nations.

Whats even funnier is that you have openly devout racists and classist in communism, socialism, and capitalism because racism and classism are independent of economic systems.

 

[Poitier]

Capitalism is voluntary exchange of goods and services, to claim it was created with the slave trade is idiotic at best.

 

[David_TheMan]

If you have a question ask it, no need to resort to pictures.
Tell me your position and lets have convo

 

[Poitier]

If you have a question ask it, no need to resort to pictures.
Tell me your position and lets have convo

The Free Market never existed in our world.

 

[David_TheMan]

The Free Market never existed in our world.

Maybe you mean a large scale free market, but free markets exists since the beginning of man and to this very day.

When you have something that someone else wants and they step to you and negotiate a sell, that is the free market.
When someone knows you have a skill and comes to you and asks you can you do this for me and I'll pay you, that is the free market.
That is capitalism.

 

[Poitier]

Maybe you mean a large scale free market, but free markets exists since the beginning of man and to this very day.

When you have something that someone else wants and they step to you and negotiate a sell, that is the free market.
When someone knows you have a skill and comes to you and asks you can you do this for me and I'll pay you, that is the free market.
That is capitalism.

Bartering is not capitalism.

 

[David_TheMan]

Bartering is not capitalism.

Batering is a form of capitalism.
Again the only thing necessary for capitalism is private ownership and management of capital and the voluntary exchange of those services or goods.

Also none of the examples I gave can be classified as strictly bartering.
The emergence of uber and airbnb would actually fall under the scope of those examples, both taking money instead of exchange of another good.

All that said, again you haven't really been able to defend your point of the free market never existing.