Steve Stoute: "The older generation didn't care about lyrics. That's why Illmatic took 5 years to go Gold. G Rap never got rewarded for lyrics"

[Ziggiy]

Stoute isn’t telling the whole story

And he’s honestly be better off if he did. The good that he DID do and his marketing genius would be more appreciated if he stopped bullshytting about no one buying “lyrical” albums and talked up more how artists should be well rounded in ADDITION TO their lyrical acumen.

He’s also conveniently leaving out how Illmatic and other lyrically focused projects like Reasonable Doubt, Enter the 36 Chambers, Resurrection, Liquid Swords, etc have stood the test of time. Nobody is going to see Young MC perform Stone Cold Rhymin in its entirety at a festival but Nas literally makes MILLIONS performing Illmatic at festivals around the world everytime its anniversary pops up.

There’s a REASON why Stoute sought out Nas and basically begged to represent him after Illmatic supposedly “flopped” and thats because Nas’s skills, not just his image, were marketable. Stoute helped Nas embrace becoming a better songwriter, but It Was Written is arguably MORE lyrically proficient than Illmatic. Jay dumbed down his content to double his dollars he performed a sold out B-Sides concert full non-singles and deep album cuts that his fans love to this day. Common won an Oscar writing a lyrical song about hope and determination amongst the backdrop of the civil rights movement. RZA is scoring ballets. Lupe Fiasco went platinum off a concept album. Guru was touring the whole of Europe with his Jazzmatazz series. Kendrick Lamar won a pulitzer prize and went on one of the highest grossing tours by an artist ever performing an album that explored themes of sex addiction, domestic violence, incest, and child abuse.

Hip Hop as lyricism and as “art” does and can indeed sell. You just can’t sacrifice the listening experience, which includes production, for the lyrics. They have to work in harmony.

Stoute would do well to talk about the full picture and how he can and has helped artists step back and see that picture instead of just erroneously pushing this narrative that all nikkas want to do is dance.

 

[NO-BadAzz]

See the problem with these discussions is everyone judges hip hop with 1-3 of the same metrics

If it can't play in the club, it doesn't exist, and that makes y'all part of the problem. Hip hop has homes in places besides the club. What do nikkas listen to at home alone? When they drive? When they work or study?

I've had this Doom discussion a lot(I would make a thread but I'm too lazy to make threads) about this strange amount of insulated gatekeeping from boom bap head Doom fans. I've noticed that y'all really ain't aware how popular MF Doom is

For one there is no more "underground". The internet deaded that. And if there was still an underground, doom wouldn't be in it

I know people from all walks of life. I know multiple women that listen to Doom. I know a tech Indian that has Doom's entire discography on his phone, I can go on and on. Also again we know a good amount of current popular rappers love and are inspired by Doom. Nikkas gotta stop acting like Doom is some local rapper

Doom has almost 9 million listens a month. That is a popular nikka breh For comparison Wu Tang has about half of Doom's listens. Any nikka not named Drake/Kendrick/Cole/Future would kill to have the amount of monthly listeners that MF Doom has


This shyt is hilarious because the Doom gatekeepers are the only one's that still think they're gatekeeping some shyt Again I think y'all really underestimate how popular Doom became during peak Adult Swim years

There are more Doom fans that look like this than y'all are aware of or willing to admit

I never heard one song by Doom and I am being honest.

I'll just say this, I'm not sure when you started listening to music but if we go to 92, through the years 2000 maybe 2001

It was 3 places that folks listened to rap music

Back in those days 13 year Olds and under did not listen to rap music. There was not internet and black parents, the majority of them were not buying rap Cds, cassette for themselves or for their kids.
Second. I'm not sure where Doom is from, but if he's in the tri-state area, how would your average listener 12 years old -25 years old would even know about a Doom if his singles are not on the radio during that time in real time?

If he doesn't have a smash single to catch folks outside the tri-state area, nobody is bumping that dude at all, that's why I never heard any music from him
If he came out in that time frame.

The only way someone would listen to a Doom or B or C list artist from that area was if they went to college in that area, had family in that area.


I'll add this also, there use to be a station called The Box and you can request music videos, if your single wasn't jamming, your video would not be played.
Yo MTV raps and Rap City, a cat like Big L could get something on Rap City due to where Rap City was located. He could prolly get a music video or something on there but not on yo MTV raps, they did a countdown or did shows that feature songs, videos that were jamming

The club. Parties and DJ outside of the tri-state area did not play that boom bap shyt with heavy lyrical whip. Your cousin who was in their 20s. Maybe an older brother you had who was into rap heavy and who parents allowed him to listen to cursing music all day and night
And again, rap music was not played all day every day, there were certain times that rap music was played especially on the radio, most stations played rap music in that time at night. But unless you lived in the projects where folks sat outside all day after the sun went down and even then, it wasn't any and every rapper being played while they sat outside etc. Mainly the popular ones who had the smash radio singles for us it was CMR local shyt added and west coast shyt. UGK

If you were in middle, or high school, you had to have older siblings or cousins thay had their own car to listen to music

Cats would bring CDs to school but every 12 year old 16 year old didn't have The Chronic and that cat who brought those albums to school to show off, stole it that morning from their brother, I use to do it all the time. My mama would never take me into the store and buy that music. My older brothers had the stuff and I would listen to their stuff until maybe HS, I had my car to get my own stuff.

Even then, CDs were costing 20 bucks a pop maybe 14 dollars and cats wasn't breaking bread on artists that they did not know from outside of their region especially if they did not have a strong single being played on the radio.


Lyrics that gravitated to the listener mattered. If the rapper can rap about the same things that you went to as a listener. Make it stick, those were the ones who sold.

Like i told the other poster, Nas, The Message song, or his singles off that 1st album, I heard them shyts 1 time and I didn't even finish the whole song, this was in real time.

Now I will say, around maybe 2002 or 2003 when every house starting having a CD burner and cats could download music, then you may find a mix CD with a Nas on it and again that was only his radio singles

FF today, 2024, you can listen to anyone anywhere. Back then that was not the case.

 

[NO-BadAzz]

Stoute isn’t telling the whole story

And he’s honestly be better off if he did. The good that he DID do and his marketing genius would be more appreciated if he stopped bullshytting about no one buying “lyrical” albums and talked up more how artists should be well rounded in ADDITION TO their lyrical acumen.

He’s also conveniently leaving out how Illmatic and other lyrically focused projects like Reasonable Doubt, Enter the 36 Chambers, Resurrection, Liquid Swords, etc have stood the test of time. Nobody is going to see Young MC perform Stone Cold Rhymin in its entirety at a festival but Nas literally makes MILLIONS performing Illmatic at festivals around the world everytime its anniversary pops up.

There’s a REASON why Stoute sought out Nas and basically begged to represent him after Illmatic supposedly “flopped” and thats because Nas’s skills, not just his image, were marketable. Stoute helped Nas embrace becoming a better songwriter, but It Was Written is arguably MORE lyrically proficient than Illmatic. Jay dumbed down his content to double his dollars he performed a sold out B-Sides concert full non-singles and deep album cuts that his fans love to this day. Common won an Oscar writing a lyrical song about hope and determination amongst the backdrop of the civil rights movement. RZA is scoring ballets. Lupe Fiasco went platinum off a concept album. Guru was touring the whole of Europe with his Jazzmatazz series. Kendrick Lamar won a pulitzer prize and went on one of the highest grossing tours by an artist ever performing an album that explored themes of sex addiction, domestic violence, incest, and child abuse.

Hip Hop as lyricism and as “art” does and can indeed sell. You just can’t sacrifice the listening experience, which includes production, for the lyrics. They have to work in harmony.

Stoute would do well to talk about the full picture and how he can and has helped artists step back and see that picture instead of just erroneously pushing this narrative that all nikkas want to do is dance.

Breh you speaking from a stance in 2024

What did those albums do 1st week in real time outside of the tri-state area

Real time what did those albums do and were folks outside of the tri-state area bumping them shyts

The answer is Hell NO. In real time, No.

 

[O.Red]

I never heard one song by Doom and I am being honest.

I'll just say this, I'm not sure when you started listening to music but if we go to 92, through the years 2000 maybe 2001

It was 3 places that folks listened to rap music

Back in those days 13 year Olds and under did not listen to rap music. There was not internet and black parents, the majority of them were not buying rap Cds, cassette for themselves or for their kids.
Second. I'm not sure where Doom is from, but if he's in the tri-state area, how would your average listener 12 years old -25 years old would even know about a Doom if his singles are not on the radio during that time in real time?

If he doesn't have a smash single to catch folks outside the tri-state area, nobody is bumping that dude at all, that's why I never heard any music from him
If he came out in that time frame.

The only way someone would listen to a Doom or B or C list artist from that area was if they went to college in that area, had family in that area.


I'll add this also, there use to be a station called The Box and you can request music videos, if your single wasn't jamming, your video would not be played.
Yo MTV raps and Rap City, a cat like Big L could get something on Rap City due to where Rap City was located. He could prolly get a music video or something on there but not on yo MTV raps, they did a countdown or did shows that feature songs, videos that were jamming

The club. Parties and DJ outside of the tri-state area did not play that boom bap shyt with heavy lyrical whip. Your cousin who was in their 20s. Maybe an older brother you had who was into rap heavy and who parents allowed him to listen to cursing music all day and night
And again, rap music was not played all day every day, there were certain times that rap music was played especially on the radio, most stations played rap music in that time at night. But unless you lived in the projects where folks sat outside all day after the sun went down and even then, it wasn't any and every rapper being played while they sat outside etc. Mainly the popular ones who had the smash radio singles for us it was CMR local shyt added and west coast shyt. UGK

If you were in middle, or high school, you had to have older siblings or cousins thay had their own car to listen to music

Cats would bring CDs to school but every 12 year old 16 year old didn't have The Chronic and that cat who brought those albums to school to show off, stole it that morning from their brother, I use to do it all the time. My mama would never take me into the store and buy that music. My older brothers had the stuff and I would listen to their stuff until maybe HS, I had my car to get my own stuff.

Even then, CDs were costing 20 bucks a pop maybe 14 dollars and cats wasn't breaking bread on artists that they did not know from outside of their region especially if they did not have a strong single being played on the radio.


Lyrics that gravitated to the listener mattered. If the rapper can rap about the same things that you went to as a listener. Make it stick, those were the ones who sold.

Like i told the other poster, Nas, The Message song, or his singles off that 1st album, I heard them shyts 1 time and I didn't even finish the whole song, this was in real time.

Now I will say, around maybe 2002 or 2003 when every house starting having a CD burner and cats could download music, then you may find a mix CD with a Nas on it and again that was only his radio singles

FF today, 2024, you can listen to anyone anywhere. Back then that was not the case.

Breh you typed all this addressing some shyt I wasn't even talking about my post is about MF Doom, and y'all are proving my points without realizing it. I'm beginning to see why y'all don't know or understand how popular Doom is

Y'all also are not listening i explained exactly how Doom got popular but once again I'll use a reference to illustrate.

Dr Dre was heard by millions of people. How? Through the radio

Mf Doom was also heard by millions of people. How? Like I said, through Adult Swim

I don't know how old you are but using the example you used I can't pinpoint whether you know what Adult Swim is or how ubiquitous it was in the mid to late 2000s. But during breaks of Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Family Guy, King Of The Hill, etc you know what was playing? MF Doom breh. In the mid to late 2000s millions of people in their teens and twenties put their TV on Cartoon Network at night and just let Adult Swim rock. In the process they became Doom fans

I was aware of Doom because of the magazines but I ignored that shyt because I was 16 and hated boom bap at the time. Then I heard All Caps on The Boondocks and was this is how Doom became popular. Again it was unorthodox, but we're talking about an unorthodox nikka.

In 2006 MF Doom and Danger Mouse put out an album for free on Adult Swim's website. Millions of people heard this album breh. Shyt like this was the precursor to the coming blog era of rappers releasing music straight to the internet

So when you talk about shyt like the tri state area in relation to Doom I can tell there's a cultural blind spot somewhere

Doom is what I call a slice of life rapper. I listen to Currensy every day. Meaning at any point if I'm listening to music at some point a Currensy song will play. Doom is like this, and Doom gets played a lot in those settings. I'm talking at home chillin, studying, working etc

Again we're talking about a nikka with 8.7 million listens a month. Nikkas has 4 million more listeners than Wu Tang, and half as many listeners as Lil Yacthy. The nikka is popular breh

Marvel comics had Doom themed covers featuring his lyrics recently. The Weekend performed in a Doom mask a year ago I can go on and on with these examples

Mf Doom is a very popular rapper

 

[TEH]

Nah, he’s just defining “lyrics” into a specific style. The older generation absolutely cared what they wrote down on paper.

He’s talking about the public not rappers

Look at the 90’s rap charts

Not much was lyrical

 

[Tommy Gibbs]

That's bullshyt...

Nobody was going gold in the early/mid 90's because everyone simply dubbed tapes.

Illmatic wasn't even finished, but they released it early because most of it was dubbed so much and everyone had most of the songs, so they had to drop it as is. For the first year I thought the Memory Lane was the opening song, because I had tape that dubbed the B side first.

nikkas didn't start going platinum until CD's became more popular and people starting buying them.

PE was platinum in 1990 with Fear of a Black Plwnet. Ice Cube was platinum every time out. So was EVERYTHING on Death Row. Death Row is the only label that had a 100% platinum rate the first 4 years of it's existence. Other platinum acts prior to Illmatic included Onyx. I purposely left out the obvious of Run DMC, Hammer, Vanilla Ice, and Run DMC. Lots of albums went gold. BDP were always going gold. They were making Jive a ton of money. So were De la Soul. People just caught onto Illmatic too late. the same as Reasonable Doubt. It happens. Illmatic was a great album that WE knew was great, but unfortunately, iut had no memorable choruses for the ladies and casual fans. And this was coming at the time when the Wu had just come out, Tribe's 3rd album, and death Row was still very active. Nas crossed over on the 2nd album. Another album that was platinum in the street was One for All. I don't think any album was bootleged as much as that back then.

 

[Tommy Gibbs]

I never heard one song by Doom and I am being honest.

I'll just say this, I'm not sure when you started listening to music but if we go to 92, through the years 2000 maybe 2001

It was 3 places that folks listened to rap music




I'll add this also, there use to be a station called The Box and you can request music videos, if your single wasn't jamming, your video would not be played.
Yo MTV raps and Rap City, a cat like Big L could get something on Rap City due to where Rap City was located. He could prolly get a music video or something on there but not on yo MTV raps, they did a countdown or did shows that feature songs, videos that were jamming

The club. Parties and DJ outside of the tri-state area did not play that boom bap shyt with heavy lyrical whip. Your cousin who was in their 20s. Maybe an older brother you had who was into rap heavy and who parents allowed him to listen to cursing music all day and night
And again, rap music was not played all day every day, there were certain times that rap music was played especially on the radio, most stations played rap music in that time at night. But unless you lived in the projects where folks sat outside all day after the sun went down and even then, it wasn't any and every rapper being played while they sat out

But Doom was heavy on yo mtv raps back in 1989 with the Gas Face. He was on that track and various songs from KMD's first album. Yo, Rap City, and Pump it up played videos of songs that we knew we'd never hear on popular radio. We the people made Wutang big, not the radio. Wutang spread like a wildfire in my high school through word of mouth for those that didn't watch Rap City faithfully as others and it caught on.

 

[KnickstapeCity]

Steve Stoute is a fukking fakkit

 

[NO-BadAzz]

But Doom was heavy on yo mtv raps back in 1989 with the Gas Face. He was on that track and various songs from KMD's first album. Yo, Rap City, and Pump it up played videos of songs that we knew we'd never hear on popular radio. We the people made Wutang big, not the radio. Wutang spread like a wildfire in my high school through word of mouth for those that didn't watch Rap City faithfully as others and it caught on.

I never heard of buddy, 89, I wasn't on hip hop hard at all. Kid n Play, I think Chubb Rock 1990? That's what my brothers and sisters were playing. They were teens.
LL
Kool Moe D
Public Emeny
NWA
Those what came through the radio in that time. And again, I can say that I wasn't watching yo, and Rap City that hard back in 89. We didn't have cable and we only had 2 TVs lol.

Not saying you are wrong with you post or anything, I'm clarifying why I never heard of Doom or anybody talking about him much

 

[NO-BadAzz]

Breh you typed all this addressing some shyt I wasn't even talking about my post is about MF Doom, and y'all are proving my points without realizing it. I'm beginning to see why y'all don't know or understand how popular Doom is

Y'all also are not listening i explained exactly how Doom got popular but once again I'll use a reference to illustrate.

Dr Dre was heard by millions of people. How? Through the radio

Mf Doom was also heard by millions of people. How? Like I said, through Adult Swim

I don't know how old you are but using the example you used I can't pinpoint whether you know what Adult Swim is or how ubiquitous it was in the mid to late 2000s. But during breaks of Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Family Guy, King Of The Hill, etc you know what was playing? MF Doom breh. In the mid to late 2000s millions of people in their teens and twenties put their TV on Cartoon Network at night and just let Adult Swim rock. In the process they became Doom fans

I was aware of Doom because of the magazines but I ignored that shyt because I was 16 and hated boom bap at the time. Then I heard All Caps on The Boondocks and was this is how Doom became popular. Again it was unorthodox, but we're talking about an unorthodox nikka.

In 2006 MF Doom and Danger Mouse put out an album for free on Adult Swim's website. Millions of people heard this album breh. Shyt like this was the precursor to the coming blog era of rappers releasing music straight to the internet

So when you talk about shyt like the tri state area in relation to Doom I can tell there's a cultural blind spot somewhere

Doom is what I call a slice of life rapper. I listen to Currensy every day. Meaning at any point if I'm listening to music at some point a Currensy song will play. Doom is like this, and Doom gets played a lot in those settings. I'm talking at home chillin, studying, working etc

Again we're talking about a nikka with 8.7 million listens a month. Nikkas has 4 million more listeners than Wu Tang, and half as many listeners as Lil Yacthy. The nikka is popular breh

Marvel comics had Doom themed covers featuring his lyrics recently. The Weekend performed in a Doom mask a year ago I can go on and on with these examples

Mf Doom is a very popular rapper

I stated the time frame, 91 through 2001.

Doom got popular after that time frame in which you said adult swim

I even stated that when folks got burners and the internet became a thing to get music and access all day, more ppl started to be heard. I made mentioned to Nas having a few of his radio singles on burnt mixtapes here.

Did you comprehend that bro? It's the same thing I said in the post you quoted.

Was adult swim out, playing between the years 91 through 2001?

Again, if Doom comes out between those 91 through 2001 years that I stated, how would millions of people know him??

Was Adult Swim out then??

I know wtf I'm speaking on you don't. You're all over the place.

Did everybody bump MF Doom between 91 and 2000?
Let me ask you that

 

[hex]

Breh
Them folks got no play outside of that tri state area

Wasn't that Wu Tang a double CD? Or did it just have alot of songs?

But, that Nas song, in real time, was not big outside of that tri-state area

It made no countdown, in real time, nobody bumped it at any clubs, homecoming, parties etc.

Them songs did not fit our culture down here or anywhere else outside of the tri-state area.

Them singles over time got praise, but in real time, that shyt wasn't played

Crucial Conflict- Hay got more burn them both of Nas singles combined.

But I'm not from the tri-state area.

I live in the Midwest breh. I've posted pics of the exact block.

"Wu-Tang Forever" was a double CD yes but it was 2x the cost of a regular CD. That's why the RIAA counts it 2x. Same as Pac and BIG.

I dunno what Nas songs you're referring to but "It Was Written" went 3x plat. Crucial Conflict went gold. "Hay" went gold, "If I Ruled The World" went plat. So i don't know what you mean.

EDIT:

You talking about "I Gave You Power" and "The Message"? Neither were singles. And I didn't mention those two songs to illustrate how popular Nas was in the club or at homecoming. The thread is saying old heads didn't care about lyrics. Those songs were lyrical, on an album that went 3x plat.

Fred.

 

[Metal Face]

He's not lying
these oldheads love lying and acting like they were up on real shyt back then
but most like they they were bumping bullshyt too

 

[Mr. Negative]

I never heard of buddy, 89, I wasn't on hip hop hard at all. Kid n Play, I think Chubb Rock 1990? That's what my brothers and sisters were playing. They were teens.
LL
Kool Moe D
Public Emeny
NWA
Those what came through the radio in that time. And again, I can say that I wasn't watching yo, and Rap City that hard back in 89. We didn't have cable and we only had 2 TVs lol.

Not saying you are wrong with you post or anything, I'm clarifying why I never heard of Doom or anybody talking about him much

give him some grace, breh.

People will argue their viewpoint not realizing folks dont share it.

It's like I was saying in that Meccapolis thread. I grew up in the deep deep rural south. I KNOW what was popular outside of NY/Cali cause the radio and word of mouth is pretty much all we had. Cousins come in from different areas bringing and talking about what was the most popular shyt where they were. My moms bookkeeping the local juke joints, my uncle being a DJ. My older sisters throwing wild parties on weekends and buying all the Word Ups and Tiger Beats.

Yeah, DOOM was/is popular, but he trying to tell you he is because of some shyt you never even seen and he frustrated cause you dont get it.

 

[Mr. Negative]

and yeah, I don't even remember if I posted already

but "old heads aint care about lyrics" is a fukking lie,

the BIGGEST indication of this is how "old heads" disparaged when the Soulja Boys and D4Ls blew up.

"THEY JUST HAVING FUN OUTCHEA "


look where that dumb shyt got us.

 

[O.Red]

I stated the time frame, 91 through 2001.

Doom got popular after that time frame in which you said adult swim

I even stated that when folks got burners and the internet became a thing to get music and access all day, more ppl started to be heard. I made mentioned to Nas having a few of his radio singles on burnt mixtapes here.

Did you comprehend that bro? It's the same thing I said in the post you quoted.

Was adult swim out, playing between the years 91 through 2001?

Again, if Doom comes out between those 91 through 2001 years that I stated, how would millions of people know him??

Was Adult Swim out then??

I know wtf I'm speaking on you don't. You're all over the place.

Did everybody bump MF Doom between 91 and 2000?
Let me ask you that

The very first thing I said in my last post was that you were addressing shyt I wasn't even talking about Like I already said my responses were about Doom and Doom only. You're the one that tried to force it into 91-2000 trying to be right for no reason The comprehension issues ain't on this side breh

Then to close your post out asking me a bad faith hypothetical like "Did everybody bump Doom between 91 and 2000?" Again having nothing to do with what my last two posts are addressing directly

Come on breh