So should Kobe be ranked in the top 10 or not?

[murksiderock]

The 2Pacalypse Of Basketball

Kobe Bryant and Allen Iverson are the two basketball players that it's impossible to have objective basketball conversations about.

It's almost not even worth it.

Both yall 100 on that...

2005-2010 Kobe is just as great as Bird. Better for sure when you factor in defense. He was First Team All-Defense as well as All-NBA. You guys love to discount that shyt but if the shoe was on the other foot you'd point it out in a heartbeat.

Bird played with superior talent in his prime than Kobe did for a few years. Bird isn't winning with Smush Parker as his third option either. Don't go this route. You're not gonna act like Parish, McHale, DJ, Maxwell and Ainge were scrubs while Luke Walton and Kwame Brown were good enough to win a title with.

"Bird was a Day 1 phenom..." You just gonna leave out that he was 23 his rookie season while Kobe entered the league at 18? This is the disingenuous garbage you guys like to spew to discredit Kobe. At 22 Kobe put up 28/6/5 (29/7/6 in the playoffs) so it's safe to say he would have been a "Day 1 phenom" if he went to college for four years as well.



By that definition, LeBron has no case over Kobe in the 2000s. Duncan is Kobe's only peer and Kobe won more titles in the decade as well as playoff matchups head-to-head.

Bird's 5-year peak (1983-1988)
•27.3/9.8/6.8/1.8/0.9 on 512/400/899 shooting, 20.7 FGA
•(playoffs) 26.3/9.7/6.7/1.9/0.9 on 486/368/899 shooting, 19.7 FGA
•led team to 61.6 wins/year, #1 seed all five years
•119 Ortg, 102 DRtg (went to 118/107 in playoffs)
•26.1 PER (22.7 in playoffs), 75.3 WS, .237 WS48
•led League in PER 2x, OWS 1x, DWS 2x, WS 2x, WS48 2x
•2x champ, 2x FMVP, 3x MVP, 5x All-Star, 5x All-NBA 1st Team, '84 All-D 2nd Team, 2x 50-40-90 club
•2-2 Finals, 4-1 ECF

Kobe's 5-year peak (2005-2010)
•29.8/5.6/5/1.6/0.4 on 459/348/847 shooting, 22.6 FGA
•(playoffs) 29.8/5.7/5.4/1.5/0.6 on 467/350/844 shooting, 22.5 FGA
•led team to 53.2 wins/year, 3x #1 seed, 2x #7 seed
•114 ORtg, 106 DRtg (114/108 playoffs)
•25 PER (24.9 playoffs), 64.3 WS, .200 WS48
•2x champ, 2x FMVP, '08 MVP, 2x AMVP, 5x All-Star, 5x All-NBA 1st Team, 5x All-D 1st Team, 2x scoring champ
•2-1 Finals, 3-0 WCF

Upthread I mentioned that I think there peaks were similar and can be argued either way. This is just an outline for people who can't even see what Bird's case is; it can be argued either way...

The part about Bird going to college is inconsequential because LeBron didn't go to college and was a Day One phenom...

Kobe and Duncan's H2H should only be measured in the post-Shaq years. Shaq, Duncan, and LeBron are all peers of his era and KD and Steph are closing in on being historical peers to Bean...

 

[jadillac]

Kobe did what he did at a superstar level for longer than only maybe Lebron.

Other great players couldn't sustain

 

[jadillac]

Kobe has to share that claim with 2 other guys in the 2000’s

Who did Kobe share this with?

And how long did they play at a superstar level vs how long Kobe played at superstar level?

Kobe played almost 20 yrs and y'all like comparing ppl who had 4-5 prime seasons

 

[Field Marshall Bradley]

It would help if you finally said what you think is illegitimate about Bird's case over Kobe instead of just attacking nikkas with emotional rants. Talk basketball...

Aint shyt emotional about none of my posts.... people are trying to compare 2 players from 2 different eras that play entirely different positions.... . some are making comparisons/judgments without even seeing one of the players even play..... the whole thread is an absurdity.... comparing NBA players from different eras is media creation....shyt never made sense....... all I ever ask cats is who you picking... and who was the most skilled....

 

[fifth column]

It's been explained many times before. It's the fact that Jordan came along at the unique opportunity of becoming the first commercialized, off-the-floor basketball player, and what that globalization did to the collective perception of him as a player to people in his age range and the immediate generation of fans after him...

Most people older than Jordan have a very different outlook on where he stands in history, so do most of the youngins who are now adults but were born during or post 3peat, that didn't grow up in the era immediately under his shadow. It's all of us (99% of the posters on here) who were born roughly 1965-1995, I'm an exception and there are others, but most people born in that window were fed Jordan Mystique and it dominated and controlled the narrative of how we judged basketball players...



I never said I saw Bird, but since we're in the business of being transparent, when did you start watching ball?

If we're only going by what we've seen with our own eyes, sure, Kobe is Top 4 I've ever seen and I can make the argument for Top 2. That's a different question than All-Time but at least it explains why you're ranting so hard, you're not ranking him All-Time, you're just doing on who you've seen, right?



All the playoffs count. Kobe has a losing case versus Bird period if we are talking about complete postseason moments (all rounds), and has nowhere near a Top 5 case as a postseason performer. Kobe's regular seasons help his legacy in these conversations more than his postseasons, though obviously both matter on the whole....

Stop it man

 

[JA_Carter]

Anyone that has Kobe anything lower than top 10 is an analytical stat nerd that only pays attention to box scores. Kobe is 4th on my list (behind MJ, Lebron & Magic and ahead of Kareem).

It’s funny how people put Kareem ahead of Kobe yet he was only the undisputed first option for 2 of his 6 championships, and for the last he was the 3rd option. Whereas Kobe was only the undisputed 2nd option for his first title & was as good as Shaq in 2001 and arguably better in 2002. Plus he never got bullied the way Kareem was by Moses Malone in the 83 finals.

NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY mastered the skill of scoring as much as Kobe. Not saying he is the best player but the variety of ways he was able to score is unlike anything I have and probably will ever see. There’s a reason he was so revered worldwide, there’s a reason people scream ‘Kobe’ when throwing something in the trash can.

Just look at this video

Kobe came in the league as one of the most athletic guards ever but his dedication to the craft made him the most skilled player ever.

The only reason I won’t say he’s the GOAT is cause his basketball IQ at times failed him. Jordan would never do what Kobe did against Detroit in 2004. I know he & Shaq were beefing but he allowed his ego to make him think he had to prove he’s better than Shaq when clearly Detroit couldn’t stop Shaq.

Another thing people hold against him is his FG %. ‘But but he never shot above 47%’, but when you consider he consistently took arguably the toughest shots ever the fact he consistently shot around 45% is impressive. That’s why I say eye test > stats, stats alone doesn’t give you context. Plus other than Jordan what elite guard was shooting 50%? It’s common sense that the further you are from the basket the lower your FG % will be. I’m sure DeAndre Jordan has one of the highest FG % ever but nobody would consider him a great scorer.

He is the only player in history other than Wilt to score 80 + points in a game. In HISTORY, and unlike Wilt he wasn’t just physically bigger than his opponents, he was 6’6 but he got those points off skill. To me it’s even more impressive than Wilt’s game just because of that alone.

Kobe was the only all time great that played with scrubs during his prime. If he had good teammates between 2005-07 who knows how much he would’ve won.

And no this is not revisionist history cause he’s dead, I never allowed the media’s attempts to discredit him while he was alive influence my opinion on him. You’ll never meet anyone that is passionate about basketball & actually play it say anything bad about Kobe. There’s a reason he’s the idol of pretty much every young player in the league right now.

 

[Field Marshall Bradley]

It's the fact that Jordan came along at the unique opportunity of becoming the first commercialized, off-the-floor basketball player, and what that globalization did to the collective perception of him as a player to people in his age range and the immediate generation of fans after him...

Well damn..... you a lil young to have this type opinion on MJ but you said not one lie in this..... people ain’t gon wanna hear this tho.....

 

[Tom Foolery]

Wilt
Kareem
Duncan
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Oscar Robertson
Lebron

10 players off the top

Kobe has equaled or exceed a lot of players you mentioned on this list from a career comparision.

 

[David_TheMan]

Kobe has equaled or exceed a lot of players you mentioned on this list from a career comparision.

I dont think he has to be honest

 

[Reggie]

Without a doubt he should be.

 

[WhoShotCha]

Kobe the greatest to me. Only ppl to do what he did were dudes that were 7footers or generational athletes.

 

[Numpsay]

I dont think he has to be honest

Based on what, Kobe won more and had a much longer prime than the majority of that list.

 

[Ozymandeas]

Basketball ain't 1v1. Kobe at his peak would give anybody problems...

Kobe and Bron's primes overlapped for about 9 years, don't do that. They had moments on each other, but Bron outplayed Kobe more than the other way around...

I don't disagree though that there aren't many players in NBA history better than dude. He's Top 10...

Their primes didn’t overlap. They just played in the league together at the same time. When Kobe was in his prime (2003-2009 ish) he was considered the best player. When Bron was in his prime (2010-2016 ish) coincidentally he was considered the best player They were also around the same age those years starting at 25/26 ish to 31ish. It’s funny how it worked out like that That’s when your prime is. Not when you 35 years old. It’s those mid 20s years to your early 30s. If Kobe was in his prime from 2010 to 2016, how could you argue LeBron was the best in anything when there would’ve been a kid on the other side of the country averaging 50 points a month. And Kobe won two rings in his prime (later years of it but still). So if he did in this example too, then what? Like I said people have recency bias. Kobe’s prime was too long ago for a lot of people. They don’t remember how good he was. The same way people don’t remember how good Wade was. If Kobe was the same age as LeBron and their primes coincided at the same exact time a lot of these arguments would’ve been deaded.

 

[NoHalfWay]

I never said anything about the season, I’m talking about the finals. You are arguing against yourself. Bird has 2 fmvps same as Kobe. Bird was not the best player on his team in the 81 finals.

Nah homie I’m not arguing with myself

I’m guessing you’re assuming that I’m someone that thinks the Finals is the only series that matter. Nah breh I look at the full context.

Bird was the best player on the Celtics throughout the entirety of the 80’s title victories

Just like Kobe was during his legendary 2008-2010 playoff runs. It is what it is

Who did Kobe share this with?

And how long did they play at a superstar level vs how long Kobe played at superstar level?

Kobe played almost 20 yrs and y'all like comparing ppl who had 4-5 prime seasons

He shared it with Tim Duncan & Shaq

And when we evaluate their resumes all-time you have to take into account what both them did in the 90’s while Kobe was still finding his way.

Plus those dudes went to college, when they got into the NBA they were already pretty much superstar level players who only needed a short time to become #1 options on title contending/winning teams.

So when we talk about Kobe’s longevity we can’t neglect the fact that he was literally a child coming into the league. Then his first 8 years in the league he spent with the most dominant force in the modern era

 

[Boonapalist]

The "If He Stayed in Charlotte" argument does not have to stop. Every great is affected by where they end up drafted.

Yes it does because Charlotte never intended to keep him. They only drafted him to trade for Divac. If anything you should be talking about the Nets. They were going to draft him until he told Calipari he would play in Italy if they did.