So all Hitler had to do was not backstab stalin...and london west Europe is his

[null]

Yep. If Nazi Germany never attacked the UK and invaded Russia in the early spring....well.....the world would have been a lot different. The Jews outside of American soil would have been wiped out, Europe would have been speaking German outside of England and Switzerland, and they would have nukes to wipe out "undesirable" cultures around the world.

Germans didn't create nukes due to Deutsche Physik

"Effect on the German nuclear program[edit]
It is occasionally put forth[12] that there is a great irony in the Nazis' labeling modern physics as "Jewish science", since it was exactly modern physics—and the work of many European exiles—which was used to create the atomic bomb. Even if the German government had not embraced Lenard and Stark's ideas, the German antisemitic agenda was enough by itself to destroy the Jewish scientific community in Germany. Furthermore, the German nuclear weapons program was never pursued with anywhere near the vigor of the Manhattan Project in the United States, and for that reason would likely not have succeeded in any case.[13] The movement did not actually go as far as preventing the nuclear energy scientists from using quantum mechanics and relativity,[14] but the education of young scientists and engineers suffered, not only from the loss of the Jewish scientists but also from political appointments and other interference. In 1938, Himmler wrote to Heisenberg that he could discuss modern physics but not mention Jewish scientists such as Bohr and Einstein in connection with it.[15]"
Deutsche Physik - Wikipedia

 

[Wild self]

Germans didn't create nukes due to Deutsche Physik

"Effect on the German nuclear program[edit]
It is occasionally put forth[12] that there is a great irony in the Nazis' labeling modern physics as "Jewish science", since it was exactly modern physics—and the work of many European exiles—which was used to create the atomic bomb. Even if the German government had not embraced Lenard and Stark's ideas, the German antisemitic agenda was enough by itself to destroy the Jewish scientific community in Germany. Furthermore, the German nuclear weapons program was never pursued with anywhere near the vigor of the Manhattan Project in the United States, and for that reason would likely not have succeeded in any case.[13] The movement did not actually go as far as preventing the nuclear energy scientists from using quantum mechanics and relativity,[14] but the education of young scientists and engineers suffered, not only from the loss of the Jewish scientists but also from political appointments and other interference. In 1938, Himmler wrote to Heisenberg that he could discuss modern physics but not mention Jewish scientists such as Bohr and Einstein in connection with it.[15]"
Deutsche Physik - Wikipedia

Even without Nukes, Germany made a few foolish mistakes short of taking over the world by attacking Russia at the beginning of winter instead of the Spring.

 

[null]

But didn't the Nazi's pretty much hate the Blacks in Germany? lol not sure why they were shocked of the treatments of Blacks in America. I was reading the story about a Mulatto kid from Liberia who was raised in germany when the holocaust popped off and it didn't sound sweet.

This Destined to Witness - Wikipedia ?

They actually left him more or less alone but did exclude him from some aspects of normal life.

 

[Ya' Cousin Cleon]

Fascist societies tend not to last long in general

Their ideology didn't matter in the early stages of the war. If they had made an alliance with the Soviets they would have won the war and crushed all other powers. However, no one would have accepted their idiology down the line and it wouldn't have spread, probably creating conflicts with their allies. Let's face it both Japan and Russia would have used Germany for their own benefits. Not to mention they would face a long struggle with international terrorism which would have crippled their economy and livelihood. So I don't think they would have somehow held onto that power for very long even if they conquered the world.

 

[null]

Even without Nukes, Germany made a few foolish mistakes short of taking over the world by attacking Russia at the beginning of winter instead of the Spring.

Wouldn't the USA just nuke Germany into submission if it came to that?

reminds me of

 

[Sukairain]

I read somewhere recently that one of the motivations for the German invasion was securing the oil fields in Soviet Azerbaijan, and opening up a secure supply route of Iranian oil piped up via the southern SSRs and then through eastern Europe to Germany.

They had massive fuel shortages even right at the start of the war in 1939 when they stomped everyone they faced. The problem was that come 1940 when the Russian invasion was put into action, those shortages got to a crippling point where the momentum of the Blitzkrieg could not be sustained any longer. So they had to get their hands on some oil, somehow, some way.

It still begs the question though of why they didn't just import it from the USSR. Could it be that Stalin saw what could happen and didn't want to unload his oil reserves to the Germans? Or did the Nazis just get their Avon Barksdale on: "since when do we pay for oil? We take oil!"

Hard to say, but I'm about to put in a fair amount of research on the early years of the eastern front, since I'm writing an article about it due for publication next year. I will return at some point to this thread to share my discoveries with you all

 

[Haliax]

Im glad he lost,

It's just unfortunate he didn't complete his immediate goals

What the shyt ?

 

[Skooby]

I read somewhere recently that one of the motivations for the German invasion was securing the oil fields in Soviet Azerbaijan, and opening up a secure supply route of Iranian oil piped up via the southern SSRs and then through eastern Europe to Germany.

They had massive fuel shortages even right at the start of the war in 1939 when they stomped everyone they faced. The problem was that come 1940 when the Russian invasion was put into action, those shortages got to a crippling point where the momentum of the Blitzkrieg could not be sustained any longer. So they had to get their hands on some oil, somehow, some way.

It still begs the question though of why they didn't just import it from the USSR. Could it be that Stalin saw what could happen and didn't want to unload his oil reserves to the Germans? Or did the Nazis just get their Avon Barksdale on: "since when do we pay for oil? We take oil!"

Hard to say, but I'm about to put in a fair amount of research on the early years of the eastern front, since I'm writing an article about it due for publication next year. I will return at some point to this thread to share my discoveries with you all

What publication you wrote for?

 

[thekyuke]

False! Stalin wanted Hitler to attack Britain AFTER which he'd have invaded W Europe. Hitler found out and ACTUALLY ATTACKED just in time . Rmbr, Stalin invaded Finland in 1939- HISTORY books DON'T tell too it was practice for the whole of Europe.
The Russians were caught out at jump off points all along the border and lost enormous war stocks and materials. Just finished an excellent book I'll reread by a Russian intel guy, Victor Suvorov laying it all out.

The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II

"Suvorov debunks the theory that Stalin was duped by Hitler and that the Soviet Union was a victim of Nazi aggression. "


"Hitler's intelligence services detected the Soviet Union's preparations for a major war against Germany. This detection, he argues, led to Germany's preemptive war plan and the launch of an invasion of the USSR. Stalin emerges from the pages of this book as a diabolical genius consumed by visions of a worldwide Communist revolution at any cost--a leader who wooed Hitler and Germany in his own effort to conquer the world"

IIRC, the Germans captured 4800 railroad cars of ordnance in the first week on invasion!?

 

[Losttribe]

What the shyt ?

 

[Sukairain]

What publication you wrote for?

Whichever one that my article will pass peer-review in. I am thinking Journal of Interdisciplinary History or Security Studies will be my main two target publications.

The point of my article is to analyse the role of the secret clauses in the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (I'll explain it later) in shaping the response of the Polish, French, and British governments, and ultimately in being the immediate cause for the Second World War. My intention is to draw a parallel between these secret clauses within that treaty with the secret treaty reached by the Macedonian king Philip V and the Seleucid emperor Antiochus III the Great (again I'll explain later), and the role that this particular agreement played in shaping the response of neighbouring Greek states and the Romans.

Ultimately I want to make the point that in both cases an enormously significant war broke out because of the secret agreements that all four leaders respectively made. What's interesting about it is that the poor victims of their ruthless aggression had no actual proof of what was going on: instead they formed up quick defensive alliances and prepared for war on the basis of mere rumour. It goes to show that in war, sometimes even an unsubstantiated rumour can be real enough to do the work of truth.

Come to think of it I could maybe even throw the Zimmerman Telegram in there. Zimmerman was the German foreign minister in the First World War. He sent what was supposed to be a secret telegram to Mexico, asking if they would consider invading the US. The Mexicans wanted nothing to do with this crazy idea. But the important thing was that the telegram was intercepted by the British, who forwarded it on to D.C. Once the Americans found out that Germany was trying to encourage other countries to attack the US, they declared war on Germany and entered WW1. On this occasion the secret got exposed before the action happened, but it's still a really interesting case study of how states can get really backhanded and under-the-table when it comes to making alliances during wartime.

I'm an ancient historian by training and in my career, I'm very interested in interstate relations, diplomacy, and warfare in the ancient world. But an article like this, because it is so Interdisciplinary, is unlikely to make it into a journal that specialises in ancient history. So I'm targeting Interdisciplinary history, international relations, and military science journals in the hope that I'll pass peer-review in one of them and get published

 

[Skooby]

@Sukairain ^^...Good stuff.

I'll be curious to see what you come up with.

 

[QuintessentialMan]

False! Stalin wanted Hitler to attack Britain AFTER which he'd have invaded W Europe. Hitler found out and ACTUALLY ATTACKED just in time . Rmbr, Stalin invaded Finland in 1939- HISTORY books DON'T tell too it was practice for the whole of Europe.
The Russians were caught out at jump off points all along the border and lost enormous war stocks and materials. Just finished an excellent book I'll reread by a Russian intel guy, Victor Suvorov laying it all out.

The Chief Culprit: Stalin's Grand Design to Start World War II

"Suvorov debunks the theory that Stalin was duped by Hitler and that the Soviet Union was a victim of Nazi aggression. "


"Hitler's intelligence services detected the Soviet Union's preparations for a major war against Germany. This detection, he argues, led to Germany's preemptive war plan and the launch of an invasion of the USSR. Stalin emerges from the pages of this book as a diabolical genius consumed by visions of a worldwide Communist revolution at any cost--a leader who wooed Hitler and Germany in his own effort to conquer the world"

IIRC, the Germans captured 4800 railroad cars of ordnance in the first week on invasion!?

Yes. In my household I always grew up with the notion that Hitler actually saved the world because Stalin and Russia had been planning something worse and they actually had the men and resources to do it. Hitler was actually putting a tremendous beatdown on Russia until all the Siberian Winter Soldiers stepped in and they managed to make a stand. Imagined if these two had actually teamed up genuinely instead of the Bullshyt.
I always felt bad for Germany and Japan because Germany didnt actually cause WW1 it was a collective thing, but then they got left with a ridiculously huge and unnecessary bill and no help, for such a proud people, you push them to the wall, they're liable to go insane and be open to the travesties that eventually happened.....and Japan just got told to go away after WW1 even though they helped right, and then was getting gun boat diplomacied all day, but then again they were always doing the absolute most to China as well, I need to re read all this shyt. Thread is fire.

 

[QuintessentialMan]

Whichever one that my article will pass peer-review in. I am thinking Journal of Interdisciplinary History or Security Studies will be my main two target publications.

The point of my article is to analyse the role of the secret clauses in the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact (I'll explain it later) in shaping the response of the Polish, French, and British governments, and ultimately in being the immediate cause for the Second World War. My intention is to draw a parallel between these secret clauses within that treaty with the secret treaty reached by the Macedonian king Philip V and the Seleucid emperor Antiochus III the Great (again I'll explain later), and the role that this particular agreement played in shaping the response of neighbouring Greek states and the Romans.

Ultimately I want to make the point that in both cases an enormously significant war broke out because of the secret agreements that all four leaders respectively made. What's interesting about it is that the poor victims of their ruthless aggression had no actual proof of what was going on: instead they formed up quick defensive alliances and prepared for war on the basis of mere rumour. It goes to show that in war, sometimes even an unsubstantiated rumour can be real enough to do the work of truth.

Come to think of it I could maybe even throw the Zimmerman Telegram in there. Zimmerman was the German foreign minister in the First World War. He sent what was supposed to be a secret telegram to Mexico, asking if they would consider invading the US. The Mexicans wanted nothing to do with this crazy idea. But the important thing was that the telegram was intercepted by the British, who forwarded it on to D.C. Once the Americans found out that Germany was trying to encourage other countries to attack the US, they declared war on Germany and entered WW1. On this occasion the secret got exposed before the action happened, but it's still a really interesting case study of how states can get really backhanded and under-the-table when it comes to making alliances during wartime.

I'm an ancient historian by training and in my career, I'm very interested in interstate relations, diplomacy, and warfare in the ancient world. But an article like this, because it is so Interdisciplinary, is unlikely to make it into a journal that specialises in ancient history. So I'm targeting Interdisciplinary history, international relations, and military science journals in the hope that I'll pass peer-review in one of them and get published

Fascinating. Let us read it please.
Secret alliances also caused WW1 if I remember correctly. When the match went off, the teams were already set and stockpiles were already in place. Europe just need that one event, to set it all off.

 

[Koba St]

He hated communism with a passion

He wanted to expand the German territory eastward and saw the Russians and Slavs as inferior who he could invade and destroy easily. If he can easily conquer France, and other Western European nations who he considered superior, Russia would be a piece of cake

The Germans desperately needed food and raw materials for the war effort and most of them were in Russia who in exchange for the raw materials, were getting the latest German weapon blueprints which was unacceptable and therefore had to stop

Basically in hindsight, it’s easy to say Hitler shouldn’t have invaded, but looking at it from that time, it makes sense and to be honest, if it wasn’t for his own bundling, they would’ve pulled it off.