Mantis Toboggan M.D.
Drink wolf cola
So much WOAT level posting. Mods should be ashamed of themselves. Talked about cleaning up the boards and I've seen more bad posting in 2015 than I did all of 2014.
Serious Question: What exactly does Lebron do BETTER right now than Penny Hardaway did offensively?
- Thread starter DoubleClutch
- Start date
YOU SOUND LIKE a person that doesnt know basketball. i just told you. the reason lebron's numbers are so inflated, just like Tmac and AI's and Vince, shoot, young ray allens is because these guys inherited bad teams. PROVE ME WRONG.
in addition. they never until late got on teams where they were not the #1 option.
Non of them had a shaq to play with. there isnt a shaq in the nba. there isnt a prime kobe in the nba. LBJ is on his own on the mountain top. i never said he was great. i said people boost his abilities not realizing the context of the stats you are looking at.
All of these dudes throwing up 50% stats KD included. would have lower fg%'s in the nba of the 90's. for two reasons. #1 you could literally lock a guy up if you had the defensive no how. you cant do that anymore. the only reason a guy is locked up now is if he or she just aint that good to begin with. jordan was locking dudes up, GP was locking dudes up, Kobe was locking guys up. That cant happen in the new league now because of the rule changes. they wont allow guys to get all up in perimeter guys all game long without whistles. the nba did this on purpose. they did this to help increase scoring, since they gave the defense the zone. So all you have to do is work on your jump shot, and your dribble drive game a bit and you to can score a lot of points in the new nba. why do you think its so many guards throwing up 30's,40's like its cute. the nba is SOFT now.
Lebron didnt ask to be born in this era. but he was. it is...what it is.
as great as lebron is. do you think he all by his lonesome could've beat SHaq, Walker, Old man Gp, and prime dwade? HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO.
but he might get these young boys out west. why? because the nba is soft now. the talent pool is lessened as well.
and again, since every single team in the nba today is running heavy screens for the ball handler, again you cant defend a guy 1 vs 1 anymore. its virtually impossible. this was not the case back in penny's era, kobe's young era, mikes era.
Do you understand what would happen if penny, mike, prime kobe, prime tmac, shoot, even prime vince, played in todays soft a... era. They would throw all sorts of silly numbers. especially if they all had their own teams with no other 2nd player that was on their level.
again, i proved my point with the pippen comparison. pippen played 2nd fiddle to mike his entire career. the one year mike was gone pippen showed his a.... and balled out. yall were like WAIT i didnt know scotty was that good.
its the exact same thing that happened with kobe. yall thought kobe was just another very shooting guard. yall didnt know he was the shooting gawd until shaq left and he showed his a.... and balled all the way out. Tmac was taking his super sorry super soft magic team to the playoffs every year. throwing up silly numbers. his teams were worse then brons by far. just on the soft factor of those magic teams.
and that was before the "cant touch a guy on the perimeter" era began.
Lebron will never be this super goat player to me above all. like he is to a lot of you. and its not because i think mike is the best ever, or kobe is the best ever, or magic, etc. its because i think this era is SOFT in comparison to those guys eras. so i cant even look at the man's stats the same. nothing you can tell me will change the softness of todays nba. period.
do you know how many points kobe scored with shaq? do you know how many shots he took per game?Lebron stats puffes up from being the main gun?
Lebron is the best player on the planet why wouldn't he be the main person who has the ball.
how good did you think kobe was back in those first 3 ships?
did you know he was 62 points in 3qtrs(more points then an entire roster-dallas mavs)...GOOD?
did you know he was 81 points good? NO.
You know why? because he was playing side by side with yet another monster.
Two godzilla's on the same team. lebron has never had to deal with that. which is why his career numbers are insane. and will continue to be insane. This is why he will catch every other star players career numbers in a much shorter time span. all those accolades and milestones kobe got as "the first player to reach blah blah at such and such age" is a wrap as long as lbj plays a little longer. because he played on the first cavs team. with him being the only real star player on that team. his 2nd fiddle wasnt even on pippens level. so he is put into a position where he has to do more things. but he's also giving the open space to do those things without another dude there calling for the ball or taking the rebs, etc.
its not a knock on bron. its reality. these star players playing alone balloons their stats. everyone knows this. the moment they play with another dominant player. their stats slip.
old man wade was no longer dominant. he couldnt do it consistently anymore when they teammed up. he had his moments but that was it. moments. we all knew cbosh was cool but he wasnt some superstar player.
cbosh was horace grant. very very solid baller. but again it proves my point. bosh in Tdot = a world class baller. wait how did tha that happen? K love in minny all by himself. balling.. now he's just a shooter.
lbj is the best player in the nba RIGHT NOW. but he isnt the best player EVER and he's not close to being the GOAT. and thats based on the fact the nba he's in is SOFT. i mean we just saw the hawks as a 1 seed. L O L
You do know players scored more back in the hand check era right?
i just told you why. his competition isnt that great either. i give bron his due for being the best player in this era. KD aint close, not in my opinion. cause he doesnt play enough defense. and he still cant really set up his teammates like that on a regular basis. KD is more of an alien freak reggie miller. which is nice. but that aint jordan. that aint kobe. shoot, penny was a better all around player than reggie miller. and i love reggie. but penny didnt have a prime due to injury. again.If what Bron is doing is so easy in this era why aren't there more players with similar stats?
put prime vince, prime tmac, prime kobe(with no shaq on the team), give me all these guys in this soft era. and i promise you they would average a ton of ppg easily. with some assist and boards to go with it.
and we know even prime vince was sometimey.
you do know players were better back in the hand check era right?
this is my point. these guys could give you these numbers vs harder defense with less ref help. so what the hell would they do in an era where you cant sneeze on a guy(harden) without a whistle?
gary payton and the sonics had mike the great one shooting like 41% in the finals. 41%. think about that. thats without a zone defense. GP manning up on dude. hawking manning up on dude., etc. what this means is, if you find guys that are long enough and strong enough that also KNOW how to play serious defense and the refs stay out of it(not hacking like old school harper, but good solid man up defense). a solid defender can make a guy thats primarly trying to bull rush the rim... a less than 50% shooter. this era would've made Dwade look darn near mortal without his jumper. the spurs sat their for two playoff series in a row and watch lbj take open jumpers. because they know if we push up on him. he will get to the ft line. even if its not a foul.
what would happen if KLenard could guard lebron like it was 1996? how clamped down would he have lbj then?
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Mantis Toboggan M.D.
Drink wolf cola
Don't bother telling 90's stans this. Let them ignore how zone defense and more advanced game plans and evolving strategies change the game. Same type of crew that thinks the best offense in the clutch is a wing going isolation fadeaway through a double team in the middle of the floor from 20 feet out. Can't have a logical discussion with that group
Same thing other players said about Jordan..
torcher
Superstar
Grant Hill>Penny
labelplant
Wilt Chamberlain
This is terrible.
What does Kobe do better than Steve Smith?
What does Kobe do better than Steve Smith?
YOU SOUND LIKE a person that doesnt know basketball. i just told you. the reason lebron's numbers are so inflated, just like Tmac and AI's and Vince, shoot, young ray allens is because these guys inherited bad teams. PROVE ME WRONG.
He went to Miami and the team was a championship contender from the jump, and put up outrageous numbers with two hall of famers along side him, each needing touches and the ball.
in addition. they never until late got on teams where they were not the #1 option.
I don't know what you're talking about, but TMAC was the number one option in his fourth year. AI was the number one option his rookie year. Vince was the number one option right away too.
LeBron is better than all three of them, and all three of THEM were better than Penny.
Non of them had a shaq to play with. there isnt a shaq in the nba. there isnt a prime kobe in the nba. LBJ is on his own on the mountain top. i never said he was great. i said people boost his abilities not realizing the context of the stats you are looking at.
You clearly struggle to read. I'm not talking about stats... I've addressed skillets, but the stats ALSO back up LeBron versus Penny. As well as results. As well as film.
All of these dudes throwing up 50% stats KD included. would have lower fg%'s in the nba of the 90's. for two reasons. #1 you could literally lock a guy up if you had the defensive no how.
you cant do that anymore. the only reason a guy is locked up now is if he or she just aint that good to begin with. jordan was locking dudes up, GP was locking dudes up, Kobe was locking guys up. That cant happen in the new league now because of the rule changes.
But who was locking Jordan up? Nobody, because he was an all time great.
LeBron is an all time great. That's how it works.
they wont allow guys to get all up in perimeter guys all game long without whistles. the nba did this on purpose. they did this to help increase scoring, since they gave the defense the zone.
B, you are LITERALLY referring to "The Jordan Rules" -- the way the game was opened up, to market and cater to superstars. That was FOR Jordan.
So all you have to do is work on your jump shot, and your dribble drive game a bit and you to can score a lot of points in the new nba. why do you think its so many guards throwing up 30's,40's like its cute. the nba is SOFT now.
Lebron didnt ask to be born in this era. but he was. it is...what it is.
He's in the greatest, most talent-laden, freakishly athletic era of basketball, ever. Period. Ever. There is no debate there. You're talking about handchecking like it was the pinnacle of basketball. Don't be simple.
as great as lebron is. do you think he all by his lonesome could've beat SHaq, Walker, Old man Gp, and prime dwade? HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO.
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
"OLD MAN GP" I'm dying, you are a retard.
but he might get these young boys out west. why? because the nba is soft now. the talent pool is lessened as well.
The talent pool. is wider, and deeper than ever. That is a fact.
and again, since every single team in the nba today is running heavy screens for the ball handler,
The pick and roll has been a core principle of basketball for 30 years.
again you cant defend a guy 1 vs 1 anymore. its virtually impossible. this was not the case back in penny's era, kobe's young era, mikes era.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Penny had an "era" now? He was good for 3 years!!!
Do you understand what would happen if penny, mike, prime kobe, prime tmac, shoot, even prime vince, played in todays soft a... era. They would throw all sorts of silly numbers. especially if they all had their own teams with no other 2nd player that was on their level.
Prime Vince played in the 2000's!!!!!!!!!! He's still in the NBA!!!!
again, i proved my point with the pippen comparison. pippen played 2nd fiddle to mike his entire career. the one year mike was gone pippen showed his a.... and balled out. yall were like WAIT i didnt know scotty was that good.
Y'all? Pippen was an ALL NBA player with all star games under his belt... fukk are you talking about?
its the exact same thing that happened with kobe. yall thought kobe was just another very shooting guard. yall didnt know he was the shooting gawd until shaq left and he showed his a.... and balled all the way out.
:kobechair:
Tmac was taking his super sorry super soft magic team to the playoffs every year. throwing up silly numbers. his teams were worse then brons by far. just on the soft factor of those magic teams.
and that was before the "cant touch a guy on the perimeter" era began.
Holy shyt, we have to buy you a calendar.
Lebron will never be this super goat player to me above all. like he is to a lot of you. and its not because i think mike is the best ever, or kobe is the best ever, or magic, etc. its because i think this era is SOFT in comparison to those guys eras. so i cant even look at the man's stats the same. nothing you can tell me will change the softness of todays nba. period.
I underlined the "to me" because... well, you're a fukking idiot. And "to me" doesn't matter when you're talking about facts. You don't like LeBron or "this era" of basketball... well that's fine. But you also display ZERO knowledge of the game, of any era. In fact, you referred to some time period ad "penny's era" which is insane... because either you're talking about a 3 and a half year stretch where he was relevant... or you're talking about modern basketball.. because he only retired retired in 09.
You are brand new to, among many things: The english language, statistics, and basketball.
Please brush up on them before you post more.
Regards,
~IV~
:downwhiteguy:
The_Third_Man
Superstar
AHHHH the old discredit the person so you dont have to truly addressed the argument at hand. or you cant address it because you know its true but you believe what you've been told by ESPN.
lol at penny retired in 2009. we were talking about two things. penny never really seeing his true prime due to injury. and what he may have been in his prime with no shaq like player as his running mate(those playoffs vs the heat). and that playoff series was right after he first got injured. So... why are you bringing up when he officially retired, when we know good and well the man's knees were shot years and years prior? you're trying to muck up the argument with a bunch of nonsense.
let me make it simple for you one last time.
you dont have to agree. doesnt bother me one bit. but what you wont do is spin my thoughts into something you can argue as crazy thinking. by making up stuff or stretching something i never said into something else. why would i discuss penny's era thinking about a broken down penny? thats like me saying Kobe's era, but you think because he's still playing i'm talking about Post achilles kobe. that would be DUMB. so please ...stop it.
Young penny post shaq thru up the numbers in that series and that was after he got hurt. he proved to you how good he could have been and the numbers he could throw up without a shaq like running mate, what if that man never got hurt and played in this soft era of TODAY?
Do you know why kareem is possibly one of the GOATs, and one of the Goat centers if not THEE goat center of all time?
Its because he balled out in every era he was in regardless of the competition and to boot he balled out as a decrepted old man (similar to timmy D of today but vs stiffer comp).
people looked at tim having good games vs the clips as great timmy. and i said not really. this era is devoid of real POWER forwards. every PF not named Zbo and maybe boogie is literally a jump shooting, lob catching, face up big that isnt trying to bang and put work in the low post. you can show me all sort of points in the paint. so what. thats a lob and a put back, a fast break is an in the paint point too. so dont even try it.
This era is soft due to the officiating/rule changes. in addition to the fact lebron himself doesnt have top level comp to battle against.
yes he's a great player. but all the greats that have come before him, hat to go thru a gauntlet of other greats to be great. not so with LBJ. again thats not his fault but it is...what it is.
You ever notice they dont like to give tyson his official props and they swear ali was the greatest. why? because they feel mike's era of boxing was not as strong as ali's.
They wont give Money may his props because they dont believe his era was as strong as sugar ray's.
dont mix me in with the lbj haters. i'm a truth teller. i tell it like it is. yall just dont want to hear the truth because you've been brainwashed by the media into believing he's the greatest thing since peanut butter and chocolate.
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Penny is one of the most overrated players of all time. The arguments I've seen as to why people THINK he is better than LeBron in this thread are absolutely absurd.
LOL @ this shytty ass thread