Seattle agrees to raise minimum wage to $15

TLR Is Mental Poison

The Coli Is Not For You
Supporter
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
46,178
Reputation
7,463
Daps
105,790
Reppin
The Opposite Of Elliott Wilson's Mohawk
Very much different. In most cases, the labor actually labors. Owners most of the time don't. In small businesses, the owners might labor in some of the cases but not 100%. When you're talking about larger companies, at times the owner is simply handed the position by birth right or inclusion in a social circle. There's no laboring on their part. We get sold this myth as the worker but it's hardly true.
Why is it the obligation of the owner to "labor"? They put up the capital that brought the business into existence in the first place.

And nepotism/social connections are part of the human condition and don't necessarily have to be "evil". If a dad teaches his son how to weld I'm sure you'd be cool with that, but if that dad teaches his son how to weld and turns over his welding business to his son upon retirement all of a sudden it's evil :beli:

Businesses can exist where the entire labor force are the owners. Do you understand this concept? Also, human societies can exist where businesses are simply a vessel for production of products and opportunities for labor without the concept of profit. It's hard to imagine this because we get told since birth that the way we currently do things is the only right way.
They can, and do. But on the flip side, for publicly and many privately owned companies, there is nothing keeping folks from buying equity in their companies. So where I'm not convinced is the point that companies are obligated to make workers owners too.

How we try to make the labor the owners as much as possible. If a capitalist business owner is simply getting into a business for greed, and he can't survive because the government has to force him to pay a fair wage (or not use slaves, or not use child labor, or not work someone to death, etc) than so be it.
What do you think workers work for? What do you think workers demand wages for? The love of laboring??? :pachaha: Why is it OK for workers to be self-interested but not owners?
 

Type Username Here

Not a new member
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
16,368
Reputation
2,385
Daps
32,643
Reppin
humans
Why is it the obligation of the owner to "labor"? They put up the capital that brought the business into existence in the first place.

Where does the capital come from the first place? Did we all start on an even playing field?

And nepotism/social connections are part of the human condition and don't necessarily have to be "evil". If a dad teaches his son how to weld I'm sure you'd be cool with that, but if that dad teaches his son how to weld and turns over his welding business to his son upon retirement all of a sudden it's evil :beli:

It doesn't have to be evil, but spare me the nonsense about it being fair or it somehow demonstrating handwork by the owners putting in capital.


They can, and do. But on the flip side, for publicly and many privately owned companies, there is nothing keeping folks from buying equity in their companies. So where I'm not convinced is the point that companies are obligated to make workers owners too.

They shouldn't be obligated. There should just be laws and rules in place where if it they can't survive based on fair compensation to their labor that would be on them.


What do you think workers work for? What do you think workers demand wages for? The love of laboring??? :pachaha: Why is it OK for workers to be self-interested but not owners?

They work for as a means to live. They demand wages because the system is built on wages to survive. They demand higher wages not because they all want to be rich, but because the split should be more even. It's heavily lopsided in many industries.

Owners are self-interested AND have the power to control the conversation about wages, have political influence, have wealth/resources to undermine unions, among many other things. Don't come in here and act like the labor in this country has 50% say on matters.
 

Jhoon

Spontaneous Mishaps and Hijinks
Joined
Jul 2, 2012
Messages
16,518
Reputation
1,500
Daps
37,704
The indoctrination of economics is probably the most powerful form of indoctrination that exists on this planet. Even more so than religion. No one questions it. When people do question it, it's always within the confines of Economics itself which automatically makes it a biased conversation.

You would swear we're speaking about the theory of gravity or the speed of light in a vacuum
that's an american phenomenon.
 

TLR Is Mental Poison

The Coli Is Not For You
Supporter
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
46,178
Reputation
7,463
Daps
105,790
Reppin
The Opposite Of Elliott Wilson's Mohawk
Where does the capital come from the first place? Did we all start on an even playing field?
Capital can come from a lot of places, including saving up money one earns from labor. Since when has "starting on an even playing field" been an objective? There is no way to do that 100%.

It doesn't have to be evil, but spare me the nonsense about it being fair or it somehow demonstrating handwork by the owners putting in capital.
You seem to have this idea that the only thing of value is labor. Capital is equally valuable, no matter how much you claim otherwise to demonize those who hold/use it.

They shouldn't be obligated. There should just be laws and rules in place where if it they can't survive based on fair compensation to their labor that would be on them.
Fine, but that's different from demanding that companies be 100% worker owned.

They work for as a means to live. They demand wages because the system is built on wages to survive. They demand higher wages not because they all want to be rich, but because the split should be more even. It's heavily lopsided in many industries.

Owners are self-interested AND have the power to control the conversation about wages, have political influence, have wealth/resources to undermine unions, among many other things. Don't come in here and act like the labor in this country has 50% say on matters.
People with more resources/capital will always have more control/influence/wealth. Looking to equalize things for everybody is a fool's errand. But I do think workers don't have a big enough seat at the negotiating table, and in general the American system is too biased towards capital holders and owners. But demonizing owners for being self interested and utilizing their resources when workers are just as self-interested & would use those same resources in the same way is silly. When you have to dehumanize and demonize people you disagree with to make your points stronger it undermines your credibility. No need for it. Make a case with the problems in the system, not whatever character flaws you incorrectly attribute to everyone who has an ownership stake in a business or utilizes capital. I agree with your POV but not how you argue for it or have arrived at it.
 

Type Username Here

Not a new member
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Messages
16,368
Reputation
2,385
Daps
32,643
Reppin
humans
Capital can come from a lot of places, including saving up money one earns from labor. Since when has "starting on an even playing field" been an objective? There is no way to do that 100%.

It should be as close to 100% as possible is what I'm saying. It's nowhere near that.


You seem to have this idea that the only thing of value is labor. Capital is equally valuable, no matter how much you claim otherwise to demonize those who hold/use it.

When you look at past and current systems of human existence without capital, labor is still present. Labor is a means to survive, even when there is no capital. Do you understand that human existence is nearly 200,000-300,000 years long? Do you understand there are cultures in the world that don't use capital yet survive? Labor will always be more valuable than capital or currency. Always. We just get pushed into our brains that it's not or they are equal but the truth is that is only true in a certain frame of reference. Do you understand?


Fine, but that's different from demanding that companies be 100% worker owned.

It should be as close to it as possible.


People with more resources/capital will always have more control/influence/wealth. Looking to equalize things for everybody is a fool's errand.

Why is it a fool's errand?

But I do think workers don't have a big enough seat at the negotiating table, and in general the American system is too biased towards capital holders and owners. But demonizing owners for being self interested and utilizing their resources when workers are just as self-interested & would use those same resources in the same way is silly. When you have to dehumanize and demonize people you disagree with to make your points stronger it undermines your credibility. No need for it. Make a case with the problems in the system, not whatever character flaws you incorrectly attribute to everyone who has an ownership stake in a business or utilizes capital. I agree with your POV but not how you argue for it or have arrived at it.

You can feel anyway you wish, whether you agree with me or not. You have to understand that I sometimes look at economics from the entire perspective of human existence, not just confined to economics. Even things I argue for are primitive. These systems of economics are ultimately primitive, yet because of their relative complexity to systems of the past, and because of how engrained it is in the course of human affairs, we believe in the illusion that it's the objective way to coexist. It isn't.

Let me put this question to you this way: If in some small chance human beings came in contact with other intelligent life forms, more advanced than us, and you came to learn that these beings didn't rely on classism, capital, currency and so on, would it really surprise you? Would it surprise you that an advanced species has learned to use their resources and labor in a fair manner so that all of the inhabitants were truly given the same opportunity and equal footing in survival? That they got shun economic principles and still build advance societies and technology. It's just a thought experiment and question.
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

The Original
Bushed
WOAT
Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
310,140
Reputation
-34,205
Daps
620,160
Reppin
The Deep State
Do you guys even know how it's going to be phased in for the small businesses you're so worried about? It's not just going to be immediately upped to $15.



So those small businesses companies you guys are so deeply, deeply, concerned about are going to have ample time to figure out how to deal with the rise in costs.

Also:



Can't wait.
nice user name :heh:
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

The Original
Bushed
WOAT
Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
310,140
Reputation
-34,205
Daps
620,160
Reppin
The Deep State
The indoctrination of economics is probably the most powerful form of indoctrination that exists on this planet. Even more so than religion. No one questions it. When people do question it, it's always within the confines of Economics itself which automatically makes it a biased conversation.

You would swear we're speaking about the theory of gravity or the speed of light in a vacuum
You know...I read this comment and felt the EXACT same way about everyone who disagreed with me...right? :usure: :wow:

That being said, yes, this is as raw of a religion as you can really get.

No wonder they use the term "secular" so much in the finance (do you pronounce it fin-nance? :troll:)
 
Joined
Sep 12, 2013
Messages
11,695
Reputation
-70
Daps
29,219
Reppin
NYC
A business owner looking to earn a profit is no different than a worker looking to be paid a fair rate for their labor. You can't have one without the other.

I'm all for business owners trying to maximize profits but it shouldn't be at the expense of their own workers. If paying them a few extra bucks an hour is the difference between staying profitable and going out of business then I'm sorry you get no sympathy from me. Perhaps you should try running a business that isn't dependent upon exploiting your fellow man.

Most of these multi billion dollar companies paying their employees the legal minimum would still be multi billion dollar companies even if wages were raised to 15/hr. So once again, no sympathy.
 
Top