Seattle agrees to raise minimum wage to $15

Dusty Bake Activate

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The Economist explains
Explaining the world, daily
The Economist explains
Why some economists oppose minimum wages
Jan 22nd 2014, 23:50 by R.A.

WORKERS across the rich world have suffered stagnant wages for much of the past decade, in good times and bad. Governments are increasingly responding by boosting minimum wage-rates. State and local governments in America are passing wage increases, and Barack Obama supports a rise in the federal rate from $7.25 per hour to $10.10. Angela Merkel’s new government has signalled its support for a new national minimum wage, and on January 16th George Osborne, Britain’s chancellor, backed an above-inflation rise in the minimum wage. A higher wage floor seems like a simple and sensible way to improve workers' fortunes. Yet many economists argue against it: Germany’s leading economic institutes, for instance, have pushed Ms Merkel to resist calls for a wage floor. Why do economists often oppose minimum wage-rates?

Historically, economists' scepticism was rooted in the worry that wage floors reduce employment. Firms will hire all the workers it makes sense to hire at prevailing wages, the thinking goes, so any minimum wage that forces firms to pay existing workers more will make those jobs uneconomical, leading to sackings. Yet economists were forced to rethink their views in the early 1990s, when David Card and Alan Krueger of America's National Bureau of Economic Research presented evidence that past minimum-wage increases did not have the expected effect on employment. A rise in New Jersey’s minimum wage did not seem to slow hiring in fast-food restaurants in New Jersey relative to those in neighbouring Pennsylvania, they found. One explanation, some economists speculated, was that firms had previously been getting away with paying workers less than they were able, because workers were prevented from searching for better-paid work by the costs involved in changing jobs. That would mean that when wages were forced up, the firms were able to absorb the costs without firing anyone.

Academics continue to trade studies on whether minimum wages cost jobs. A recent survey ( Poll Results | IGM Forum ) of economists by the University of Chicago showed that a narrow majority of respondents believe a rise in America’s minimum wage to $9 per hour would make it “noticeably harder” for poor workers to find jobs. Yet a narrow majority also thought a rise would nonetheless be worthwhile, given the benefits to those who could find work. Economists' opposition to specific minimum-wage hikes is sometimes due to concerns that politicians will impose recklessly high wage-floors, which firms may find difficult to absorb without laying people off. Some economists argue that there is a better alternative in the form of wage subsidies, which cost governments money but do not discourage hiring.

Recent minimum-wage debates have been complicated by the unusual macroeconomic circumstances of the day. When economies are plagued by weak demand, as much of the rich world has been since the crisis of 2008, firms may be more sensitive to wage floors. (Others argue that healthy corporate profits show that firms have plenty of room to accommodate pay rises.) New technologies could also amplify the employment effect of a wage hike. Given expanding opportunities for automation, firms may seize on higher wage-floors as an excuse to reorganise production and shed jobs. But opinion among economists remains divided (and studies contradictory), because most recent minimum-wage increases have been comparatively modest.


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:dead:

Look man, you're never going to address and qualify your claim that a $10 minimum=good, but anything beyond that isn't worthy of being taken seriously. Please don't respond to this post and I won't respond to you anymore. This has been the most worthless conversation here I ever recall having.
 

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The topic is only $9 here. :stopitslime:

Economists are split on the issue.


10 New Economic Experts join the IGM Panel


For the past two years, our expert panelists have been informing the public about the extent to which economists agree or disagree on important public policy issues. This week, we are delighted to announce that we are expanding the IGM Economic Experts Panel to add ten new distinguished economists. Like our other experts, these new panelists have impeccable qualifications to speak on public policy matters, and their names will be familiar to other economists and the media.

To give the public a broad sense of their views on policy issues, each new expert has responded to a selection of 16 statements that our panel had previously addressed. We chose these 16 statements, which cover a wide range of important policy areas, because the original panelists' responses to them were analyzed in a paper comparing the views of our economic experts with those of the American public. You can find that paper, by Paola Sapienza and Luigi Zingales, here. The paper, along with other analyses of the experts' views, was discussed during the American Economic Association annual meetings, and the video can be found here.

The new panelists' responses to these statements can be seen on their individual voting history pages. Our ten new economic experts are:

Abhijit Banerjee (MIT)
Markus K. Brunnermeier (Princeton)
Liran Einav (Stanford)
Amy Finkelstein (MIT)
Oliver Hart (Harvard)
Hilary Hoynes (Berkeley)
Steven N. Kaplan (Chicago)
Larry Samuelson (Yale)
Carl Shapiro (Berkeley)
Robert Shimer (Chicago)


Please note that, for the 16 previous topics on which these new panelists have voted, we left the charts showing the distribution of responses unchanged. Those charts reflect the responses that our original panelists gave at the time, and we have not altered them to reflect the views of the new experts.

We have also taken this opportunity to ask our original panelists whether they would vote differently on any of the statements we have asked about in the past. Several experts chose to highlight statements to which they would currently respond differently. In such cases, you will see this "revote" below the panelist's original vote. We think you will enjoy seeing examples of statements on which some experts have reconsidered.

As with the 16 previous statements voted on by new panelists, these "revote" responses are not reflected in the chart that we display showing the distribution of views for that topic: all the charts for previous questions reflect the distribution of views that the experts expressed when the statement was originally posed.

Poll Results | IGM Forum

iI5WaXCl5oEpG.png
 

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:dead:

Look man, you're never going to address and qualify your claim that a $10 minimum=good, but anything beyond that isn't worthy of being taken seriously. Please don't respond to this post and I won't respond to you anymore. This has been the most worthless conversation here I ever recall having.
http://www.thecoli.com/posts/8361773/
 

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nikka just googled and copy pasta'd "arguments against minimum wage" and didn't even break down the info, just copy and pasted the articles whole heartedly :dead:

What a way to end a discussion.
Whats to break down? Or are ya'll just gonna post Krugman graphs from the NYT again and bold the necessary parts without doing your due dilligence.

Cause when I was posting data and charts from .gov sites in the other thread, nikkas didn't want it :usure: :ufdup:
 

Julius Skrrvin

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@BarNone can you addend this minimum wage argument from this thread to one of the others around here? This was meant to simply be a discussion about a prominent economist evaluating a new salient piece of literature and it turned into trash. I'd appreciate it breh. Starts around page 3?
 

TLR Is Mental Poison

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you shytted on universal income though :umad:
Yea, I shytted on the idea, not everyone who wanted people to have more financial security. I do too, I just don't think the way to do that is through arbitrary wage floors or more income transfers.


but hey, you want jobs out of thin air.
No, I want the US to better use its resources to equip people with the skills, knowledge and environment needed to compete and adapt in the current global market and build wealth without having to have millions to start with. I.e. make public colleges free, make a single payer program, create some programs to help people transition careers easier, etc etc. I don't want jobs out of thin air, and I'm not going to let your lack of reading comprehension twist my words around.


SOMEONEs gonna have to bite that fukking bullet :mjpls:



I support a higher minimum wage...not $15 per fukking hour.
So in other words, you support a bad idea, as long as we make it worse by limiting it to where it's not effective. And o yea, someone would have to bite THAT bullet too. Any change will come with sacrifice on someone's part, and thanks to Fed tricks the poor and middle class have been "biting the bullet" so that folks whose income/wealth is derived from assets (stocks & RE) can grow their wealth today at the expense of the country's future. It's time to spread the pain a little more evenly and bring the country into the 21st century

I know this whole post will go over your head though so let me pre empt your response

So you want to give HANDOUTS?

WHY should the RICH pay for EVERYONE'S HEALTHCARE and EDUCATION?????

So your ANSWER is to RUN UP on RICH FOLKS? Good LUCK :sas2:

:aicmon:
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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@Napoleon can u explain how $10 minimum wage is ideal but $11, $10.50, $10.01 will tear the fabric of our economy apart in your own words?
That's all I asked him like 10 times last night. I got rehashed arguments about why raising minimum wage is bad, links to a Slate piece cautioning about Seattle's $15 minimum wage, links to articles from The Economist, rants about Paul Krugman, requests for me to produce data on minimum wage and inflation even though I made no claim one way or the other, but no answer.

I don't know why some people can be so resistant to just saying they overstated something, or didn't really think it through before they typed it. I never had a problem doing that. @DEAD7 doesn't...I respect that about him even though I vastly disagree with him on econ. Dudes will tie themselves in knots trying to avoid copping to the dreaded message board "L."
 

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That's all I asked him like 10 times last night. I got rehashed arguments about why raising minimum wage is bad, links to a Slate piece cautioning about Seattle's $15 minimum wage, links to articles from The Economist, rants about Paul Krugman, requests for me to produce data on minimum wage and inflation even though I made no claim one way or the other, but no answer.

I don't know why some people can be so resistant to just saying they overstated something, or didn't really think it through before they typed it. I never had a problem doing that. @DEAD7 doesn't...I respect that about him even though I vastly disagree with him on econ. Dudes will tie themselves in knots trying to avoid copping to the dreaded message board "L."
I usually just stop posting in a thread if I'm wrong. @Napoleon just keeps digging himself deeper.
 

GetInTheTruck

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You support an increase to $10, but if it's $15, that's an invalid argument that can't be taken seriously? Where do you draw this arbitrarily line between sound policy and outlandishness? What if I want a minimum wage of $12.50 to split the difference between pragmatism and lunacy, as defined by you? If you're going to just throw out arbitrary numbers based on no real economic data, don't attach such assured assumptions to them.

I don't understand this argument. There is a big difference between 10 and 15 dollars. Why is supporting an increase to 10 and not 15 so absurd?
 
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Asking @Napoleon to show data for something that hasnt happened isnt reasonable. Common sense says that an increase of nearly 100% in some states for minimum wage...at absolute least...is cause for concern.

In addition...you all are constantly forgetting that it isnt just a minimum...its the floor...and will drive all wages up. Businesses dont just create money. How do you all suppose they [small business] pay for the increase?
 

GetInTheTruck

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Asking @Napoleon to show data for something that hasnt happened isnt reasonable. Common sense says that an increase of nearly 100% in some states for minimum wage...at absolute least...is cause for concern.

In addition...you all are constantly forgetting that it isnt just a minimum...its the floor...and will drive all wages up. Businesses dont just create money. How do you all suppose they [small business] pay for the increase?

All I know is that people better not start crying about corporate evil and/or racism when these businesses start closely considering who they hire and fire. They asked for this.
 

Regular_P

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Asking @Napoleon to show data for something that hasnt happened isnt reasonable. Common sense says that an increase of nearly 100% in some states for minimum wage...at absolute least...is cause for concern.

In addition...you all are constantly forgetting that it isnt just a minimum...its the floor...and will drive all wages up. Businesses dont just create money. How do you all suppose they [small business] pay for the increase?
If people have more money in their pocket, they will spend more.
 

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Asking @Napoleon to show data for something that hasnt happened isnt reasonable. Common sense says that an increase of nearly 100% in some states for minimum wage...at absolute least...is cause for concern.

In addition...you all are constantly forgetting that it isnt just a minimum...its the floor...and will drive all wages up. Businesses dont just create money. How do you all suppose they [small business] pay for the increase?
I don't understand this argument. There is a big difference between 10 and 15 dollars. Why is supporting an increase to 10 and not 15 so absurd?

Asking @Napoleon to show data for something that hasnt happened isnt reasonable. Common sense says that an increase of nearly 100% in some states for minimum wage...at absolute least...is cause for concern.

In addition...you all are constantly forgetting that it isnt just a minimum...its the floor...and will drive all wages up. Businesses dont just create money. How do you all suppose they [small business] pay for the increase?

Him supporting a $10 minimum wage and opposing a $15 one is neither here nor there. I took him to task because of how he framedand tried to support his claim.

He said he supports a $10 minimum wage, but anything above $10 shows an inability to be taken seriously. He essentially said $10 is good, but $10.01 is laughable. So I asked him what data he could point to that would support not the premise that minmum wage hikes have a negative effect on prices and employment, but specifically why $10 is the cutoff and anything above $10 is so absurd it's not worth addressing. He came up empty because that wasn't a good argument to begin with...it was just an arbitrary judgment call on his part. And that's fine, but when you use condescending language like "it shows an inability to be taken seriously" you need more than that.

And I like Napoleon, but I see him doing that often. For someone who is so quick to shyt on religious folks for not being able to support their claims with empirical evidence, he's been making some rather specious claims on economics and government recently. I'm trying to keep him honest.
 
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