Russia's Invasion of Ukraine (Official Thread)

[42 Monks]

Quantify what? The posts I was complaining about were "Ra Ra America!" and bringing up the fukking War of 1812. There was nothing there that needed to be 'quantified' for any practical or useful reason, it was a blatant attempt to treat sides in a war like sports rooting interests and stan (or disparage) countries as an idea rather than the actual country we happen to be living in right now. Who won the War of 1812 or World War I is not a strong argument point in debating the quality of the American experience right now in 2022. Same goes for try to nail down "stats" like whether or not Afghanistan was a loss so we can put it in the right place in America's W-L record. In the context of the conversation, the only point seemed to be getting brag about how few "L's" the American military had taken compared to the Russia military. Which beyond being a waste of time, I find pretty repulsive considering the impact that virtually every one of these engagements in discussion has on the people involved.






Posts like this are fascinating cause they really put the insecurities on full blast. I made a short comment complaining that I don't like how flippiantly we're treating war, and you pivot to....intellect? WTF would intelligence have to do with my post?

quantify stuff in general, and not just you lol. i have to do the same as well

and come on you can tell at a passing glance who's serious about what in most of these posts. war in its totality is repulsive. there's plenty of stuff many individuals posting or even casually reading will avoid. at the same time, the larger objectives will decide when and how all this ends so there will naturally be more emphasis on that. some points aren't communicated as well as they could be simply because what some consider to be critical will not be to others.

big example would be the afghanistan discussion point. the fact that in spite of two decades of turmoil and bloodshed, the US literally turned expeditionary/invasive campaigns into a fukking business model - and that's a level so far beyond any other nation's warfighting capability that it should be highlighted as absurd. that's obviously not going to line up with everyone's metric of 'success', so yeah - it could be quantified better as to not offend, be dismissive, downplay, distract, etc.

im not even disagreeing with you man. but the discourse on combat will never be pleasant in any form it takes. i think everyone, not just here either, could discuss these things better.

 

[Orbital-Fetus]

Crimea by Halloween.

 

[1thouwow]

"Terrible" is hyperbole. The only losses that America has are the below:

1. War of 1812
2. Vietnam War
3. Afghanistan War

The War of 1812 was somewhat inconclusive...

The Vietnam War was a strategic catastrophe due to shytty tactics. America went in the with a "body count" strategy, which means that they would go after any Vietcong or NVA, wipe them out and move out of the area. Damn near immediately after, the location would be reclaimed by the North Vietnamese.

America slaughtered the Taliban quickly, then trained the Afghani military for close to 2 decades, and them nikkas folded within a week of the US' withdrawal.

I'm not even sure if I can call that a loss. If the country is a shythole with zero resources and a group takes back power after you've withdrawn most of your forces, is it really a loss? More like a giant waste of resources imo.

America has been on the winning side for every other war.

How is the war of 1812 a loss for America?

 

[88m3]

 

[88m3]

 

[ADevilYouKhow]

So I guess the crazy ass Su-25 video from yesterday happened in Russia and they hit their own power lines and the latest Su-30 crash(not the one where they crashed into an apartment building earlier this week killing dozens in Russia) also happened in Russia and the crew was likely incapacitated before the crash

 

[JadeB]

My money is on Putin bluffing to attack. The last thing he wants is a long protracted guerilla war within Ukraine against rebels armed with Western weaponry.

He definitely wants his buffer zones between Russia and NATO codified though.

Also, Russia is as dependent on Europe as a buyer of natural gas, as Europe is dependent on Russia for said gas. All this screams irrational insanity.

Then again, is Putin sane?

 

[Orbital-Fetus]

Quantify what? The posts I was complaining about were "Ra Ra America!" and bringing up the fukking War of 1812. There was nothing there that needed to be 'quantified' for any practical or useful reason, it was a blatant attempt to treat sides in a war like sports rooting interests and stan (or disparage) countries as an idea rather than the actual country we happen to be living in right now. Who won the War of 1812 or World War I is not a strong argument point in debating the quality of the American experience right now in 2022. Same goes for try to nail down "stats" like whether or not Afghanistan was a loss so we can put it in the right place in America's W-L record. In the context of the conversation, the only point seemed to be getting brag about how few "L's" the American military had taken compared to the Russia military. Which beyond being a waste of time, I find pretty repulsive considering the impact that virtually every one of these engagements in discussion has on the people involved.






Posts like this are fascinating cause they really put the insecurities on full blast. I made a short comment complaining that I don't like how flippiantly we're treating war, and you pivot to....intellect? WTF would intelligence have to do with my post?

At the end of the day, war is how many L's can I force feed my opponent until they cry uncle. That's called a W. Everyone here realizes this as well as how grossly oversimplified that distillation is. Everyone also knows that war means people are maimed and killed but I'm not gonna turn every post I make in this thread into a memoriam for the dead either.

Speaking for myself as a lover of history and someone that took two semesters of Russian history, I find myself looking at this war through the cold examining eyes of an academic one minute only to revert to the typical guy who is fascinated by all things war the next. It is what it is so I let the two coexist consciously. The beautiful thing about the message board as a medium is that you have time to craft out thoughts on a subject in a series of post over time as a situation develops. I think I've been consistent with my assessments of this war regarding it's morality, feasibility, and potential outcomes. So far as the whole "Ra Ra America" shyt goes, I am not a "My country right or wrong" ass hole. When the U.S. fukks up at home or abroad I am the first to call it out because I actually care about the nation I was born in and call home. But when the U.S. steps up to the plate to do some good, you're goddamn right I'm gonna give em a public round of applause. The U.S. has so much weight to throw around that it's stupid and is often misused. Seeing it get behind what I believe is a noble cause is dope.

So far as the people on the ground go and how they are represented in this thread, I have posted several videos with civilian interviews because they put faces on these events that make this war. You gotta zoom in and zoom out to better understand.

What exactly are you mad about again?

Oh, and Crimea by Halloween.

 

[num123]

Oh, and Crimea by Halloween.

Crimea is not being taken by the end of the month or even the end of the year. Russia would have to completely abandon everything between Ukraine and the peninsula.

 

[Mister Terrific]

How is the war of 1812 a loss for America?

It’s complicated. Broadly the US invaded Canada, were defeated, had to retreat and the British were able to burn Washington before being themselves forced to retreat. The war ended with British troops on American soil, American ports largely blockaded and no American troops in Canada.

However, America gained a major victory over Native Americans (Allied with the British)breaking the back of Native American resistance in the upper Midwest when Tecumseh was killed.

Tecumseh's confederacy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Further complicating the war is half the US mainly the North east Boston, Philly, New York etc didn’t want to go to war as they had friendly relations with the Brits in sea trade. The half that instigated the war was mainly the south who came away largely unscathed as the majority of troops they raised were militia who didn’t leave their borders. Also, Americas terms were just based off pride and bravado not any real proof the Brits were arming Native Americans or stealing American sailors to serve on their ships.


In fact I would find a lot of parallels to Russians invasion of Ukraine. A weaker power attempted to bloody the nose of a superpower by attacking and attempting to annex one of their “vassals” and expected to be greeted as liberators. Most “Canadians” were actually Americans who emigrated from the original 13 colonies. So you have this false sense of brotherhood “oh we are the same blood of course they will choose us over the super power.”

The weaker power falls flat on its face because it’s army is weak and unmotivated (the us started the war of 1812 with 8,000 regular troops I.e professional soldiers and none of which wanted to go to Canada) and the country is a lot less unified in common cause than previously believed.

However when the Brits counter attacked late in the war and were thrown back the US felt it had stood up to the world bully and the Native American political apparatus was defeated and nothing stood in the way of further colonial expansion west.


That’s why even though it was a cluster fukk and embarrassment for America to start the war it’s seen as a draw at the end of the war. Problem is you can really celebrate the real US victory which was the collapse of any potential Native American as it was a victory for white supremacy and pretty much set the stage for the Civil War as with further American expansion came the issue of slave states.



TLDR: the war of 1812 is considered a draw because despite America losing at the start of the war and embarrassingly so; we’re able to throw back the British counter attack and end Native American resistance to colonial expansionism in the west.

 

[Orbital-Fetus]

Crimea is not being taken by the end of the month or even the end of the year. Russia would have to completely abandon everything between Ukraine and the peninsula.

 

[Hood Critic]

Russia back to creating a justification when one doesn't exist.

 

[Cuban Pete]

fukk the Russians apparently called the US, UK, French and Turkish defence ministers today to tell them the Ukrainians are preparing a "dirty bomb" attack in Kherson or somewhere else and that they will take appropriate measures

US defense secretary said thats bs, big cap all of the above and warned the Russians not to do it. fukking hell

 

[Orbital-Fetus]

fukk the Russians apparently called the US, UK, French and Turkish defence ministers today to tell them the Ukrainians are preparing a "dirty bomb" attack in Kherson or somewhere else and that they will take appropriate measures

US defense secretary said thats bs, big cap all of the above and warned the Russians not to do it. fukking hell

fukkery is afoot. Putin is gonna do something stupid.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Crimea is not being taken by the end of the month or even the end of the year. Russia would have to completely abandon everything between Ukraine and the peninsula.

He full well knows that, but the "ra ra" shyt dominates everything.