Russia's Invasion of Ukraine (Official Thread)

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

The Original
WOAT
Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
305,682
Reputation
-34,224
Daps
615,928
Reppin
The Deep State

A Good Week​

Ukraine has had a good week. Francis Fukuyama examines the impact of the Crimean Bridge strike.​

Francis Fukuyama10 Oct 2022, 9:59 am

I’m interrupting my Valuing the Deep State series once again to catch up on the world’s big geopolitical developments. I have just returned from a week in Europe—my third in five weeks—where I was promoting the Dutch and German editions of Liberalism and Its Discontents. I got very receptive audiences in both countries to my basic message about the need to defend liberalism, and how Ukraine was critical to that struggle.

On the Sunday I arrived in Amsterdam (October 2), I tweeted the following:



I was then asked by some journalists to expand on this, which I’ll do here. It seems to me that it is quite likely that the entire Russian military position in Ukraine may collapse by the end of the winter. After the breakthrough in Kharkiv, the Ukrainians have continued to advance to Lyman and are heading further south and east to the cities of Lysychansk and Severodonetsk that they lost over the summer. There has been a breakthrough in the Kherson region as well, with the Ukrainian army advancing on Nova Kakhovka.

In reaction to the Kharkiv setback, Putin announced his “partial” mobilization on Sept. 21. The latter has been a fiasco from the get-go, with military commissars sweeping up everyone regardless of age, ability, or former military service. This has led some 700,000 young Russians to flee, or attempt to flee, the country. The social deal they had with Putin to stay out of politics in return for peace and stability has been broken, and everyone is now feeling the effects of Putin’s war. These new draftees are apparently being sent to the front with no training and little equipment, and have already been turning up dead or prisoners.

Last Friday, Putin announced the annexation of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporzhzhia oblasts in a Moscow ceremony that reeked of fascism. The very next day, Saturday Oct. 8, the Ukrainians succeeded in bombing and seriously damaging the bridge over the Kerch Strait, which is the main Russian supply line into the peninsula. The town of Nova Kakhovka on which they are advancing is an important objective not just with regard to the defense of Russian-occupied Kherson, but also because the canal providing the Crimean Peninsula with drinking water originates from that area. With both the canal and the bridge cut, the Russians will have great difficulty supplying their military in Crimea, putting the liberation not just of Kherson but of the entire region into the realm of possibility.

These Ukrainian advances, as I said in my last post on Ukraine on July 22, are critical for maintaining external support for the war effort, both in Europe and in the United States. And indeed, recent poll data indicates that this support has actually increased since the summer. A stalemated, frozen conflict would create inevitable pressure for an immediate ceasefire and negotiations, but now the Ukrainians have shown that there is light at the end of the tunnel. With Europe having stored sufficient gas over the summer, it seems very likely that governments there will be able to sustain sanctions and continue to supply weapons to Ukraine this winter.

There has been a lot of talk and nervousness about the possibility that a desperate Putin will resort to nuclear weapons to save himself. This possibility must be taken very seriously, but there are many reasons to think that he will not cross this threshold. In the first place, the military gains from escalation will be small, since nuclear weapons—even small “tactical” ones—are better at terrorizing civilians that destroying enemy forces. The blowback from any nuclear use will be enormous, with the narrowing support that Putin has received from the global south disappearing. More importantly, the United States and NATO have a huge number of options for responding, the majority of which do not require symmetrical nuclear use. For example, NATO has rightly resisted Ukrainian calls for a no-fly zone up to now, but this will be immediately on the table in response to a Russian use of nukes. NATO has many means of making the Russian military collapse even faster. Putin is not irrational; he is rather an extraordinary risk-taker, but this risk is likely one too far.

When I tweeted that Russia would collapse, I was referring primarily to their military rather than their political system.
But Putin may be in serious trouble at home nonetheless. There are plenty of reports of infighting among the siloviki and other elites in Moscow, with everyone wanting to point a finger of blame for the debacle they face. Putin’s legitimacy rested on the belief that he was a strongman, but he now looks like a foundering fool. There is no way of telling who might replace Putin; they may be even more hardline than him. But they will still lack real capabilities to reverse the defeat or avoid humiliation.

Apart from Ukraine, there have been a number of other happy developments this past week:

1. The women of Iran have stood up in reaction to the death of Mahsa Amini at the hands of the morality police and protests have continued in dozens of Iranian cities. While similar protests have been violently suppressed in the past, these seem different and far more widespread.

2. China is undergoing a slow-motion regime crisis on the eve of the 20thParty Congress set to begin in a few days. There appears to be no way out of the zero-Covid policy trap that Xi Jinping finds himself in, and the entire growth model, based as it was on state-backed real estate investment, is crumbling. The latest real growth estimates by the World Bank put it at less than 3 percent, below the Asia-Pacific average.

3. On a more personal note, the Norwegian Nobel Committee awarded the Nobel prize to organizations led by two graduates of our @StanfordCDDRL programs, Oleksandra Matviichuk and Anna Dobrovolskaya, who have greatly repaid our investment in them by the work they have done on behalf of human rights in Ukraine and Russia.

There’s still plenty of things to worry about. Populist parties made gains in Sweden and Italy, and the Republican Party here continues its descent into madness. American democracy will be at stake in 2024, and in the short run the Democrats will likely lose the House of Representatives next month, leading to two years of dispiriting deadlock and phony investigations. But we have to nonetheless acknowledge that it's been a pretty good week.

Image: The Crimea Bridge over the Kerch Strait bridge following the Oct. 8 2022 strike.

American Purpose newsletters​

Sign up to get our essays and updates—you pick which ones—right in your inbox.

Subscribe

 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

The Original
WOAT
Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
305,682
Reputation
-34,224
Daps
615,928
Reppin
The Deep State
The US did this to Iraq, right at the start taking out critical civilian infrastructure like power plants, water treatment facilities etc
if Russia did this right at the beginning, they would have won by now
Russia missiles are missing by football field lengths

stop it :mjlol:
 

[Something Cool]

Not a Well-Known Member
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
892
Reputation
250
Daps
2,934
Reppin
exorbitant legal fees
Seriously though, why don't you think this is Putin's plan?
Oh, it most definitely is. I just don't think it's going to work. Ukraine has too many factors in its favor now with NATO logistics and more modernized weapons systems. They’re not fighting on a level playing field anymore.

However, you do see signs that Republicans are getting weary about the amount of money we are spending over there. If our support dries up then Ukraine will be in trouble, sure. They need to grab as much land as they can and hunker down, but I’m sure they were just as surprised as anyone at how quickly they were able to do it.
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

The Original
WOAT
Supporter
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Messages
305,682
Reputation
-34,224
Daps
615,928
Reppin
The Deep State
nothing to do with legacy really, ukraine wasn't ready to fight in 2014. he did the sanctions thing and started training them. they went from a corrupt soviet style military system to a near western one in like 8 years (and half of that is with trump being hostile to those initiatives). it would have been a disaster if the US was arming Ukraine in a similar manner back then. all that 2022 russian propoganda about ukranians selling western weapons on the black market would have been true back then.

in 2014 the only option was a nato action against russia and that wasn't even an option in 2022. proxy war is the best option.
That NATO gear :mjgrin:

They look HEALTHY now :demonic:

ygklj6z9yzn91.jpg


ukraine-index.jpg
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
50,588
Reputation
19,531
Daps
201,493
Reppin
the ether
Ukraine and all the other former Soviet satellites understand this and taunt/troll Russia because humiliation/looking weak, in front of their peers, is a cultural Achilles heel to them.
But keep going with that. Humiliation/looking weak is a cultural achilles heel, so they expect Russia to respond by....?

For an honor-based society, wouldn't the natural response to humilation/looking weak be escalation, not withdrawal?
Oh, you got jokes?

:dead:


Jokes? Russia is considered an honor-based society on the guilt-shame-fear cultural spectrum. It's just a normal categorization from cultural anthropology. Basically all of the former USSR (along with most modern socities in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa) is categorized as an honor culture:








A leader in an honor-shame society is more likely to escalate in response to an insult to their honor than a guilt-based or fear-based society is, because to allow their honor to be impeached without response would be a sign of weakness and shame that would degrade their status. I'll give you a pass cause you don't come in pretending to know more than everyone, but interested by all the people who dapped that up apparently completely unfamiliar with basic sociological concepts.


I mean, didn't Putin immediately respond with an unnecessary escalation that didn't actually improve his war effort at all and was pretty much just a show of strength to attempt to save face?
 

987654321

Superstar
Joined
Jun 15, 2018
Messages
7,289
Reputation
3,683
Daps
26,738
Jokes? Russia is considered an honor-based society on the guilt-shame-fear cultural spectrum. It's just a normal categorization from cultural anthropology. Basically all of the former USSR (along with most modern socities in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa) is categorized as an honor culture:








A leader in an honor-shame society is more likely to escalate in response to an insult to their honor than a guilt-based or fear-based society is, because to allow their honor to be impeached without response would be a sign of weakness and shame that would degrade their status. I'll give you a pass cause you don't come in pretending to know more than everyone, but interested by all the people who dapped that up apparently completely unfamiliar with basic sociological concepts.


I mean, didn't Putin immediately respond with an unnecessary escalation that didn't actually improve his war effort at all and was pretty much just a show of strength to attempt to save face?

We get the paper explanation of the concept. It’s just the typical connotations of the word “honor” being associated with a people who would drunkenly double cross and murder a toddler to appear tough and calculating lol.
:mjlol:
It’s like man-love Thursday’s in eastern/southern Afghanistan. We watch them paint/dye each other’s nails and hair. We watch them hold hands and walk off to smash in the wheat fields. When ask they’re gay they will be completely and utterly affronted at the possibility that they could ever be gay because it was only for recreation and they still procreate with women lmaoooo.

It’s the irony in the sentence he quoted, vs the response, that made us laugh.
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
50,588
Reputation
19,531
Daps
201,493
Reppin
the ether
We get the paper explanation of the concept. It’s just the typical connotations of the word “honor” being associated with a people who would drunkenly double cross and murder a toddler to appear tough and calculating lol.
:mjlol:
It’s like man-love Thursday’s in eastern/southern Afghanistan. We watch them paint/dye each other’s nails and hair. We watch them hold hands and walk off to smash in the wheat fields. When ask they’re gay they will be completely and utterly affronted at the possibility that they could ever be gay because it was only for recreation and they still procreate with women lmaoooo.

It’s the irony in the sentence he quoted, vs the response, that made us laugh.


Maybe you, but that gives a lot of the jokers here a ton more credit then I think they deserve. :comeon:

A this point I really can't tell which comments are meant to be "ironic" and which ones are just straight ignorant. 90% of the thread has devolved to memes, twitter hot takes, and open cheerleading without objective content. The entire idea of HL being a no-BS forum has jumped the shark.
 
Last edited:

Carl Tethers

@mastermind is OVO
Supporter
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
9,460
Reputation
5,266
Daps
41,080
Jokes? Russia is considered an honor-based society on the guilt-shame-fear cultural spectrum. It's just a normal categorization from cultural anthropology. Basically all of the former USSR (along with most modern socities in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa) is categorized as an honor culture:








A leader in an honor-shame society is more likely to escalate in response to an insult to their honor than a guilt-based or fear-based society is, because to allow their honor to be impeached without response would be a sign of weakness and shame that would degrade their status. I'll give you a pass cause you don't come in pretending to know more than everyone, but interested by all the people who dapped that up apparently completely unfamiliar with basic sociological concepts.


I mean, didn't Putin immediately respond with an unnecessary escalation that didn't actually improve his war effort at all and was pretty much just a show of strength to attempt to save face?

I know a bit about honour-based societies from my time living in China.. A lot of it was just people acting like dikkheads then getting mad when called out because they'd "lose face"
 

Orbital-Fetus

cross that bridge
Supporter
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
40,290
Reputation
17,645
Daps
146,070
Reppin
Humanity
We get the paper explanation of the concept. It’s just the typical connotations of the word “honor” being associated with a people who would drunkenly double cross and murder a toddler to appear tough and calculating lol.
:mjlol:
It’s like man-love Thursday’s in eastern/southern Afghanistan. We watch them paint/dye each other’s nails and hair. We watch them hold hands and walk off to smash in the wheat fields. When ask they’re gay they will be completely and utterly affronted at the possibility that they could ever be gay because it was only for recreation and they still procreate with women lmaoooo.

It’s the irony in the sentence he quoted, vs the response, that made us laugh.

Yeah, pretty much this. :pachaha:
 

Professor Emeritus

Veteran
Poster of the Year
Supporter
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
50,588
Reputation
19,531
Daps
201,493
Reppin
the ether
Regarding the bridge hit, I think that's an event that Russia may use to "officially" declare war on Ukraine. Not sure how this would help them but at least they may finally drop the "special operation" charade.

The thing is if they go and declare war, will arm suppliers be seen as co-belligerant and thus fair game ? :jbhmm:


I'm not sure what difference an "official" declaration of war would make, considering they're already throwing their entire army at it, doing mobilization, etc. And they probably have more to lose by calling arms suppliers "fair game" than they would gain. They'd already be attacking arms suppliers now if they weren't afraid of getting destroyed by the counterresponse.

I think the main effect of the bridge attack is what we're already seen - it gives Putin a convinient excuse to come in even harder against civilians and infrastructure than he already was. As others have pointed out in earlier pages, this sort of "terrorist bombing" campaign that Putin has started has a poor history in warfare of not really having much positive effect on the war effort, but it will certainly cause that much more suffering and death for the Ukrainian people.


One of the worst possible developments that could come is if Russian bombers get heavily involved. So far they've mostly been left out because the Ukrainian military is moving/operating in a manner that keeps them from having meaningful impact (and because early in the war he retained some notion of wanting russian-speaking Ukrainians to take Russia's side, or at least be a plausible occupied population for annexation). But if Putin lost concern with specifically supporting ground troops, and decided to just start bombing whatever, he could let a ton more air-based ordinance fly and make a lot more rubble in the country.
 
Last edited:

Spiritual Stratocaster

Jesus is KING
Supporter
Joined
Aug 14, 2014
Messages
38,606
Reputation
7,273
Daps
149,523
I don’t think it’s surprising that anti-west/US, Putin proponents are fear mongering about nuclear war. The very people who have literally been wrong about everything since January have suddenly become nuclear deterrence experts and their advice is to give in to nuclear blackmail. Where does that end? Do we simply give up Poland too? After all Putin might use nukes - and if he does it’s our fault remember.
:mjlol:

There’s also this constant attempt to defend and baby Putin. Thank god the Russian military isn’t as powerful as Russian propaganda. The idea that Putin is a strongman mastermind is so ingrained here that people are willing to argue Putin should be treated with the utmost respect or else he might get mad and do something bad. The problem is that he already did something bad, and something stupid. How he gets out of this (alive) is anyone’s guess. But I simply don’t buy that he thinks a nuke saves him. All it does is alienate China and get the Russian army obliterated in Ukraine by US forces. At a time when Russian federation states are potentially on the brink of revolt. Seems like it would make more sense for this special operation to transition to those locations. Get people back in line and return home.
"Give Putin an off ramp or else" :smugbrettfarve:
 
Top