Russia's Invasion of Ukraine (Official Thread)

Professor Emeritus

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eroding the image and support of a leader isn't something new really

but ngl im still kinda.... shocked at what PR has turned into lol. ppl really acting like a nuke wouldn't change the globe immediately.

i really hate the "but if he does it, we'll just _____" shyt. unless we got something that confidently disables that shyt in the air from half a world away then it has to be taken way more seriously than ordinary saber rattling.

Again, purposely mocking Putin's birthday seems focused a lot more on targeting him than on influencing his supporters. Yeah, it's not new, but rarely taken to this extent by people in positions of authority, especially in cases where total destruction/elimination of the foe isn't a realistic option.

There have also been numerous conflicts where top officials openly avoided such personal shots because they considered it counterproductive to securing an end to the war.




If we’re scared of provoking Putin to use nukes, I think some twitter trolling should be somewhere near the bottom of the list of priorities lol

You've reversed the argument. If twitter trolling targeted directly at Putin is immaterial to his actions, then why do it?

And he's a vain man who cares deeply about his image, with the timing of the attacks and the taunts being sent by high-level Ukrainian officials quite openly targeting him personally. Assuming it will have zero impact on his actions, not even a subconscious one, isn't exactly a secure bet.

The goals are for Putin to give up and pull all his troops, not use nukes, and commit to a peace agreement that restores Ukrainian territorial sovereignty. I'm just not seeing this social media shyt as contributing positively towards those goals. Not saying, "this is the straw that breaks the camel's back", just saying its not productive.

And no serious reader of history would claim that personal insults don't have an impact on the decision of world leaders. Warfare is rife with people in power making rash choices due to personal affronts, percieved slights, and a belief in the need to maintain one's honor or keep from looking weak in front of your populace.
 

Liu Kang

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Regarding the bridge hit, I think that's an event that Russia may use to "officially" declare war on Ukraine. Not sure how this would help them but at least they may finally drop the "special operation" charade.

The thing is if they go and declare war, will arm suppliers be seen as co-belligerant and thus fair game ? :jbhmm:
 

42 Monks

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Again, purposely mocking Putin's birthday seems focused a lot more on targeting him than on influencing his supporters. Yeah, it's not new, but rarely taken to this extent by people in positions of authority, especially in cases where total destruction/elimination of the foe isn't a realistic option.

There have also been numerous conflicts where top officials openly avoided such personal shots because they considered it counterproductive to securing an end to the war.






You've reversed the argument. If twitter trolling targeted directly at Putin is immaterial to his actions, then why do it?

And he's a vain man who cares deeply about his image, with the timing of the attacks and the taunts being sent by high-level Ukrainian officials quite openly targeting him personally. Assuming it will have zero impact on his actions, not even a subconscious one, isn't exactly a secure bet.

The goals are for Putin to give up and pull all his troops, not use nukes, and commit to a peace agreement that restores Ukrainian territorial sovereignty. I'm just not seeing this social media shyt as contributing positively towards those goals. Not saying, "this is the straw that breaks the camel's back", just saying its not productive.

And no serious reader of history would claim that personal insults don't have an impact on the decision of world leaders. Warfare is rife with people in power making rash choices due to personal affronts, percieved slights, and a belief in the need to maintain one's honor or keep from looking weak in front of your populace.
Meh. Separating an element from the whole and making it easier for those within groups/orgs/etc to become divisive or lean from neutral has always had a purpose and scales conveniently. "We're not against all of x, we're against *this*' is critical when framing shyt so that you don't end up fighting far more than you intend to.

As is, Putin is the biggest driver of the war so focusing stuff on him works. (I don't fully agree because lol the idea of Russia going through power vacuum fukkery but that's whoooole other tangent that doesn't belong here).
 

Professor Emeritus

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Yeah, I still don't know who the anti-tankie talk in this thread is aimed at. There's nobody in this thread who roots for Russia or stan Putin. And those who may want to, aren't posting at all so why polluting the thread with it...

It's aimed at slandering left-leaning posters in general, the ones that wire28 and 88m3 have recently referred to disparagingly as "HL All-Stars". It's not even really about Russia-Ukraine at all, it's about poisoning the well against said posters to shut down discourse in general.



There was a decent article about this in The Atlantic recently, regarding how modern online troll objectives have steered away from persuasion and reasoned discourse, and are instead focused solely on tainting the opponent in order to shut down dialogue. They don't want to to make an argument on a certain subject so much as they want to create a general feeling of disgust towards the people they disagree with:


"When I began to read the posts myself, I saw even more clearly how the Russians had gone about this work. They had done more than fan the flames of division. They had encouraged the view that the basic activity of democratic life—the changing of minds—had become futile. The troll farm wanted Americans to regard people with different views as immovable, brainwashed, disloyal, repulsive. “The IRA knows that in political warfare disgust is a much more powerful tool than anger,” Linvill and Warren wrote. “Anger drives people to the polls; disgust drives countries apart.”

Americans didn’t need outside help to see one another in these ways. The culture of the write-off, of mutual contempt and dismissal, could be found everywhere you looked. If anything, this attitude was a rare point of commonality across left and right."


 

Long Live The Kane

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You've reversed the argument. If twitter trolling targeted directly at Putin is immaterial to his actions, then why do it?

Because the audience isn’t Putin himself, it’s us…the world at large….like i said in my first response, it’s just the new age version of wartime propaganda


Yup morale and narrative building….basically just social media era wartime propaganda Best I can tell



The cartoon of Bugs Bunny beating up Hitler during WW2 wasn’t made to elicit some direct response from the man himself ….now if on official channels meant for serious negotiation the Ukrainians are like “haha we blew up your bridge on your birthday, suck a dikk no homo :umad:“ I kinda get where you’re going…but these tweets ain’t that
 
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bnew

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But the taunting isn't focused on Russian soldiers, it's focused on Putin. Soldiers don't give a fukk about Putin's birthday. How does taunting Putin increase the chances that he'll give up and pull his troops, refuse to use nuclear weapons, and/or sign a peace treaty that restores Ukraine's territorial soveignity?
I think zelenskyy already said he's not negotiating with putin.
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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Regarding the bridge hit, I think that's an event that Russia may use to "officially" declare war on Ukraine. Not sure how this would help them but at least they may finally drop the "special operation" charade.

The thing is if they go and declare war, will arm suppliers be seen as co-belligerant and thus fair game ? :jbhmm:

Russia will kick the can down the road... see, the bridge is still "up" and the rail "works"...so...
 

987654321

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Serious for a second, what is the practical objective of taunting? Trying to without evaluation for a moment to see if there's a positive strategy in it.

Russia’s whole strategy relies on demoralizing the enemy until they give up and lose the will to fight. They can’t do that the traditional way, like the US does it, so they almost immediately and relentlessly target civilian populations. Ukraine and all the other former Soviet satellites understand this and taunt/troll Russia because humiliation/looking weak, in front of their peers, is a cultural Achilles heel to them. Ukraine is taking their licks and showing them that it doesn’t affect their resolve like they got docked in the mouth and said “I ate those shyts”

Another thing to watch is how Russians basically watched our highlight reels from desert storm and OIF/OEF and now they try to do things they saw without understanding what we were doing or why we did it. Ukraine is also using a lot of our doctrine after learning it straight from the source. It must also burn their souls seeing Ukraine being so successful, using our tactics, while the Russians fukk up at every turn. During and after Mariupol they said fukk it and went back to their own doctrine of assaulting behind a wall of arty. Now they their supply points keep getting attacked they have been open to being gutted while defending or assaulting.
 
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