Robert Garcia says "Floyd is the greatest fighter of all time"

[Jesus Is Lord]

Breh, fighting is about who you beat, if we ranked greatness with talent Len Bias, Harold Miner, T-Mac, Michael Vick, etc would all be in the Hall of Fame in their respective sports. Floyd could never be the GOAT because he's never beaten a GOAT prime boxer, while ALL THE OTHER "GOATS" HAVE. Same way in basketball you can't be GOAT without a ring, in boxing you can't be a GOAT unless you've beaten a GOAT boxer. If there are no GOAT boxers in your era, that's just too bad, you can't give GOAT status out of pity

Breh your post doesn't address me, I would NEVER and have NEVER called Floyd the GOAT.

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

shyt, to keep it real, the only one I KNOW about is Sandy Saddler. But to answer your question, after doing some digging:

Willie Joyce, Chalky Wright, Manuel Ortiz, Phil Terranova, Joey Archibald, Paddy DeMarco, Sal Bartolo, and Sandy Saddler.

Who are those dudes? So with that list, can you list fighters better than Ortiz? I'm asking because is there a way that Pep can be overrated? I ask because he's on most people's 5-10 GOAT list and this is his comp that he beat?

*Devil's advocate breh to open some real dialogue up here.

 

[blackzeus]

What is a GOAT boxer though? I do agree with you about Floyd not being the GOAT though.

I don't know if there's an exact definition, but if I had to give some characteristics in order of importance:

1) Has defeated at least 1, if not several recognized premier fighters in their prime (my definition of premier is universally accepted HOF fighter)

2) Has defended the belt at least 1, if not several occasions, against recognized premier fighters (it's one thing when you have the hunger, but how many have the drive to stay on top and take the physical abuse after winning it all?)

3) Has won the majority of his fights (For me majority would be somewhere around 85-90%. If you winning every other fight your wins become meaningless)

4) Has at times dominated other boxers (it should be universally accepted that there was at least one, if not several fighters whose soul(s) you took)

5) Has defended his belt in different weight classes (not a requirement, but if you are defending your belt in different weight classes it goes to show you that it's you personally that is dominant, not some sort of physical advantage you may have on a smaller/slower boxer)

^^^It's not a complete set of criteria, but it's definitive. Everybody I consider GOAT has complied with my set of criteria, Mayweather hasn't unfortunately, with the #1 most important critera IMHO. Again, he's a great fighter, definitely an all-time great, definitely top 50, possibly top 20, but there is nothing he has done, and now nothing he can do to be considered the GOAT. He just hasn't had that kind of career, sorry.

 

[Newzz]

Yes, he fought Mosley -- the WBA and linear welter champ, ranked #1 at1 47 and #3 pound for pound. Was he old? Yes. He was also considered the biggest threat in the division not named Pacquiao.

But the facts are, regardless of opinion (which is what that is when you bring up who was "considered" whatever) Mosley fought Floyd after sitting out 14 months between the Margarito and Floyd fights. Ring Rust, 39 years old, out of his prime, going 1-3-1 in has next 5 fights after losing to Floyd. Again, things you have to break down and consider when you're putting someone amongst the GOAT discussion. Their resume and picked and prodded to death. Just what comes with it

He fought Marquez who, in his next fight at welter beat Manny Pacquiao (although he was robbed)

JMM and Manny Pacquiao are equally matched opponents due to the amount of fights they had against each other (the tendencies of Manny, JMM knows better than any other fighter and vice versa). No matter how many times they fight, JMM and Manny will have a close fight.

And I don't know how Canelo hasn't proven himself to be elite with wins over Trout, Angulo and Lara but hey, whatever.

Angulo is not a top fighter. The Trout fight was close, and him "beating" Lara is debatable.....most observers had the fight a draw, such as I did.

 

[TheProfessor]

I don't know if there's an exact definition, but if I had to give some characteristics in order of importance:

1) Has defeated at least 1, if not several recognized premier fighters in their prime (my definition of premier is universally accepted HOF fighter)

2) Has defended the belt at least 1, if not several occasions, against recognized premier fighters (it's one thing when you have the hunger, but how many have the drive to stay on top and take the physical abuse after winning it all?)

3) Has won the majority of his fights (For me majority would be somewhere around 85-90%. If you winning every other fight your wins become meaningless)

4) Has at times dominated other boxers (it should be universally accepted that there was at least one, if not several fighters whose soul(s) you took)

5) Has defended his belt in different weight classes (not a requirement, but if you are defending your belt in different weight classes it goes to show you that it's you personally that is dominant, not some sort of physical advantage you may have on a smaller/slower boxer)

^^^It's not a complete set of criteria, but it's definitive. Everybody I consider GOAT has complied with my set of criteria, Mayweather hasn't unfortunately. Again, he's a great fighter, definitely an all-time great, definitely top 50, possibly top 20, but there is nothing he has done, and now nothing he can do to be considered the GOAT. He just hasn't had that kind of career, sorry.

1 & 2. Diego Corrales #5 pound for pound, who Floyd defended his 130lb title against (after taking the title from Genaro Hernandez, defeating the consensus #1 in Angel Manfredy and defending against the likes of Jesus Chavez).
3. Undefeated
4. Many times
5. Many times

I think you're being unfair to Floyd. He meets that criteria easy. Is he Top 5? No. But Top 25 fa sho and an all-time great.

 

[TheProfessor]

But the facts are, regardless of opinion (which is what that is when you bring up who was "considered" whatever) Mosley fought Floyd after sitting out 14 months between the Margarito and Floyd fights. Ring Rust, 39 years old, out of his prime, going 1-3-1 in has next 5 fights after losing to Floyd. Again, things you have to break down and consider when you're putting someone amongst the GOAT discussion. Their resume and picked and prodded to death. Just what comes with it

Facts also are that Mosley was the #1 welter in the world, was ranked #3 pound for pound and was the lineal and WBA champ. 38 or not. And Floyd fought him, regardless of what happened after (which Floyd did not know).

JMM and Manny Pacquiao are equally matched opponents due to the amount of fights they had against each other (the tendencies of Manny, JMM knows better than any other fighter and vice versa). No matter how many times they fight, JMM and Manny will have a close fight.

Their first fight was a draw so this excuse makes no sense. They didn't know each other better in their first fight and fought on even terms.

Angulo is not a top fighter. The Trout fight was close, and him "beating" Lara is debatable.....most observers had the fight a draw, such as I did.

If you used this logic you could say that OScar De La Hoya was never an elite fighter. And a list of others. I don't agree.

 

[blackzeus]

1 & 2. Diego Corrales #5 pound for pound, who Floyd defended his 130lb title against (after taking the title from Genaro Hernandez, defeating the consensus #1 in Angel Manfredy and defending against the likes of Jesus Chavez).
3. Undefeated
4. Many times
5. Many times

I think you're being unfair to Floyd. He meets that criteria easy. Is he Top 5? No. But Top 25 fa sho and an all-time great.

I feel you with Diego, who's a hell of a fighter. But again, using SRL, who many would argue is not even top 5, even he beat 4 HOF fighters. I agree with you on the all time great part, I think top 25 is arguable but I definitely see it, but let's hold the horses on the GOAT of GOATs talk

 

[TheProfessor]

I feel you with Diego, who's a hell of a fighter. But again, using SRL, who many would argue is not even top 5, even he beat 4 HOF fighters. I agree with you on the all time great part, I think top 25 is arguable but I definitely see it, but let's hold the horses on the GOAT of GOATs talk

Some people DO consider Ray Top 5 and he is definitely Top 10. Funny enough, people considered him a ducker too. And an opportunist. It's all perspective. Julio Cesar Chavez never beat a HOF in his prime. Neither did many others. I don't think anyone considers Floyd the GOAT aside from his team and the uninformed but he is the best fighter of this era and that's all a fighter can really do that he's in control of.

 

[Newzz]

Who are those dude? So with that list, can you list fighters better than Ortiz? I'm asking because is there a way that Pep can be overrated? I ask because he's on most people's 5-10 GOAT list and this is his comp that he beat?

*Devil's advocate breh to open some real dialogue up here.

He may be, but then like I had posted earlier, you have Roberto Duran and Joe Louis sitting next to the front door to move into that #5 spot. Me personally, I have it Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, Roberto Duran, and Harry Greb


I just throw Willie Pep in the discussion since everyone else loves him

 

[Jesus Is Lord]

We can throw out all of our top 5 GOATs and hope some agree, but most won't agree. That's what makes boxing great. Your top 5 is probably different from my top 5, so with that said I will never discredit anyone's top 5 unless they say something like "Khan and Read Deal will dominate in any era". LOL!

 

[Newzz]

Facts also are that Mosley was the #1 welter in the world, was ranked #3 pound for pound and was the lineal and WBA champ. 38 or not. And Floyd fought him, regardless of what happened after (which Floyd did not know).

He was a 39 year old fighter coming off a 14 month lay off breh. AND, he had previously lost Miguel Cotto, but beat Luis Collazo and Margarito.....and we're supposed to say Mosley was the man?


No. Facts are what they are and numbers do lie. When you're discussing someone's place in history, you have to put everything into it's proper context in order to come to a concluion. In Floyd's case, if you look at the timing of when Mosley fought Floyd (14 months after he last stepped in the ring), his age (closer to 39 than 38), and the level of opposition he beat (Margs and Collazo, but lost to Cotto over his last 3 fights), he wasnt what the "numbers" say he was. The proof is in the fact that he only has 1 win in his last 5 fights since fighting Mayweather. Hell, 4 months after fighting Mayweather he struggled to a DRAW against Sergio Mora of all people

Their first fight was a draw so this excuse makes no sense. They didn't know each other better in their first fight and fought on even terms.

They're evenly matched. Every time they fight each other, it's gonna be close. And the 1st fight was only a draw, because 1 of the judges didnt count Pacquiao's KDs of JMM correctly.

If you used this logic you could say that OScar De La Hoya was never an elite fighter. And a list of others. I don't agree.

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ODLH's resume destroys Canelo's breh....what chu talking bout willis?

 

[TheProfessor]

He was a 39 year old fighter coming off a 14 month lay off breh. AND, he had previously lost Miguel Cotto, but beat Luis Collazo and Margarito.....and we're supposed to say Mosley was the man?


No. Facts are what they are. If you look at the timing of when he fought Floyd (14 months after he last stepped in the ring), his age (closer to 39 than 38), and the level of opposition he beat (Margs and Collazo, but lost to Cotto over his last 3 fights), he wasnt what the "numbers" say he was. The proof is in the fact that he only has 1 win in his last 5 fights since fighting Mayweather. Hell, 4 months after fighting Mayweather he struggled to a DRAW against Sergio Mora of all people




They're evenly matched. Every time they fight each other, it's gonna be close. And the 1st fight was only a draw, because 1 of the judges didnt count Pacquiao's KDs of JMM correctly.





?


ODLH's resume destroys Canelo's breh....what chu talking bout willis?

Gimme a sec to respond to this in full cuz it's all over the place.

 

[blackzeus]

Just to give you folks a comparison on why people don't consider Mayweather the GOAT, look at how many prime HOF boxers Ali fought:

Sonny Liston
Archie Moore
Floyd Patterson
Joe Frazier
Ken Norton
Bob Foster
George Foreman
Larry Holmes

^^^7 title fights, 5 wins, 8 universally recognized HOF boxers IN THEIR PRIME. This doesn't even include guys like Doug "Pugilism" Jones or George Chuvalo. That would be the equivalent of Mayweather fighting Maidana and Corrales back and forth his whole career. And some folks don't even consider Ali the GOAT. And IMHO if Floyd is a Transformer, Ali is Optimus Prime. That's why I can't understand how anybody could call Mayweather the GOAT, when it's still debatable if Ali is the GOAT.

 

[TheProfessor]

He was a 39 year old fighter coming off a 14 month lay off breh. AND, he had previously lost Miguel Cotto, but beat Luis Collazo and Margarito.....and we're supposed to say Mosley was the man?


No. Facts are what they are and numbers do lie. When you're discussing someone's place in history, you have to put everything into it's proper context in order to come to a concluion. In Floyd's case, if you look at the timing of when Mosley fought Floyd (14 months after he last stepped in the ring), his age (closer to 39 than 38), and the level of opposition he beat (Margs and Collazo, but lost to Cotto over his last 3 fights), he wasnt what the "numbers" say he was. The proof is in the fact that he only has 1 win in his last 5 fights since fighting Mayweather. Hell, 4 months after fighting Mayweather he struggled to a DRAW against Sergio Mora of all people

He lost a close fight to a pound for pounder in his prime in Miguel Cotto. So…? No shame in that.

And he was the man because he beat the man. Antonio Margarito, who was ranked #1 at welter. Mosley was a top 5 pound for pounder when Mayweather fought him. This was across the board.

And I really don’t care how long he hadn’t fought for. It’s irrelevant. Floyd hadn’t fought for two years when he fought Marquez.

Furthermore, what happened after he fought Floyd doesn’t matter either. How was Floyd supposed to know that when he signed the contract to fight him? At that time, no one was saying that Shane was washed up blah blah. Everyone was saying that Shane was the biggest threat (Pacquiao had turned down a fight with him), and that Floyd was ducking him, especially after Shane busted into the ring following Mayweather-Marquez. Can’t use hindsight because no one had that insight. Give credit where it’s due, it’s no crime, man.

They're evenly matched. Every time they fight each other, it's gonna be close. And the 1st fight was only a draw, because 1 of the judges didnt count Pacquiao's KDs of JMM correctly.

First you said that the third fight was close because they knew each other so well. When I pointed out that their first fight was also close, you’re now saying they’re evenly matched. Well no shyt lol. And when Marquez fought Floyd, he was out of his league. Again, give credit where credit is due. And so what if the judge didn’t “count” the KD correctly? It was still extremely close and Marquez won the majority of the rounds.

ODLH's resume destroys Canelo's breh....what chu talking bout willis?

Oscar De La Hoya’s resume is filled with fighters he barely beat or who weren’t that good or were washed up etc. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[Champ_KW]

Let's call beating 4 Hall of Fame fighters "extra credit" brehs, I can't believe what I'm reading

Try reading things in proper context next time. The fighting over 100 times is the extra credit, as I explicitly stated.