Religion, Race, and Rebellion

[Concerning VIolence]

Imagine a non-AA confronting a AA and telling them "no I know your TRUE history as African-Americans"

 

[Poitier]

In the colony of Saint-Domingue, Free people of color referred to mulattos.

You can be a dumbass all you want.

There is a reason free people of color and "gens de couleur" have different entries.

Besides the point. Christianity was well-known to slaves all over the diaspora starting in Africa, specifically in the Kingdom of Kongo of which a quarter of enslaved Africans in the TAS can trace back to.

 

[Poitier]

Imagine a non-AA confronting a AA and telling them "no I know your TRUE history as African-Americans"

Imagine a Haitian thinking some spooky spirits is the reason they gained independence and not the intelligence and ingenuity of their own people

 

[Concerning VIolence]

here is a reason free people of color and "gens de couleur" have different entries.

Yeah the free people of color entry has more to do with other French controlled entities and colonies such as Louisiana.

Gens de couleur was more on the Caribbean and specifically the Haitian context, which is what I'm arguing.


You dumb fukk.

 

[Concerning VIolence]

Imagine a Haitian thinking some spooky spirits is the reason they gained independence and not the intelligence and ingenuity of their own people

If you're an atheist why are you caping for christianity?

 

[Concerning VIolence]

Your agenda is very see-through.


You cape for Christianity because you're AA.

I cape for Vodou because I'm Haitian.

 

[Poitier]

Yeah the free people of color entry has more to do with other French controlled entities and colonies such as Louisiana.

Gens de couleur was more on the Caribbean and specifically the Haitian context, which is what I'm arguing.


You dumb fukk.

A free person of color is a non-specific term which is why I used it.

Dumb fukk.

 

[Poitier]

If you're an atheist why are you caping for christianity?

Your agenda is very see-through.


You cape for Christianity because you're AA.

I cape for Vodou because I'm Haitian.

 

[Trajan]

Dope thread. I keep trying to tell people that religions are systems of beliefs about the nature of reality and the purpose of our existence. Universal religions (religions that claim universality) transcend human constructs like race, nationality etc.. It doesn't mean that they cannot be politicized and manipulated to promote the interests of certain groups though. We've obviously seen this happen. The Saudis, for instance, promote a certain brand of Islam that favors their political positions (loyalty to the Saudi kingdom, even insinuating that they are "the leaders of the Muslims", branding groups and movements that are hostile to the kingdom and its policies as "deviant sects" etc).

Those who are in power have always promoted certain groups and censored others.

The Catholic Church used Christianity to enrich itself. When Kings and nobles were finally fed up of having to share their wealth and authority with the Catholic Church, they began to promote Protestantism. Religious rhetoric was used to promote and justify conquering foreign lands, enslaving people, confiscating their wealth etc..

All belief system, whether religious or secular, can be abused. The same people who used Christianity to enslave and colonize people in Africa, went on to use pseudoscientific "findings" to rationalize the exact same actions when Christianity fell out of favor as the West became more secularized. Today they use "democracy, freedom and development"- all secular ideals. The objective stays the same though. How about we focus on that?

The idea that certain religions breed c00ns is ridiculous and even childish. Nat Turner used the Bible to incite other blacks to riot. The same Bible that the whites used to enslave, torture and kill Africans. His Christianity was not the same as that of the Europeans even though they agreed on the core theology.

Hopefully this thread can help to promote a more nuanced understanding.

Yh in the absence of a national identity, it was easier for many Africans to unite under a religious banner. I think this was especially easier for Muslim Africans since the Colonists were already "others'' as non-Muslims. For example in Somalia you had the Mad Mullah Mohammed Abdullah Hassan - Wikipedia ......in Sudan the Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad - Wikipedia . ...in Algeria it was Abd Al Qadir Emir Abdelkader - Wikipedia. as well as the Rahmaniyya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rahmaniyya..In Libya it was the Sanusiyya Senussi - Wikipedia . ..Similarly in Egypt, Tunisia and Morocco.

I'm not as familiar with Christianity's role or West African Muslim movements of this time ...but in the above countries resistance to the growth of European influence was mobilised by use of Islamic symbols. Which is why cacs were alarmed at the spread of Islam in Africa.

Spoiler

Most of the heavy lifting was done by Sufi Orders ...Wahabbis were busy undermining the Ottomans

 

[IllmaticDelta]

Are you looking to talk to actual real-life Haitian historians and tell them to their face Vodou isn't an African religion?

It's overwhelmingly african but it's common knowledge that it's a syncretic religion

Vodou originated in the Caribbean and developed in the French Empire in the 18th century among West African slaves when African religious practice was actively suppressed, and enslaved Africans were forced to convert to Christianity.[14][15] Religious practices of contemporary Vodou are descended from, and closely related to, West African Vodun as practiced by the Fon and Ewe. Vodou also incorporates elements and symbolism from other African peoples including the Yoruba and Kongo; as well as Taíno religious beliefs, Roman Catholicism, and European spirituality including mysticism, Freemasonry, and other influences

we talked about this before---> Are haitians the diaspora that kept closest to their African roots?

Prove me wrong. You can't. You think you know more than the people that practice it because you watch Nat Geo (which is directed by cacs) from your armchair.

There's a reason voodou is so demonized by cacs.

I already did

What is the difference between Voodoo, Hoodoo and Santeria?

All too often, Santeria is mistakenly confused with other African-derived magical or religious systems. It is very common for people to refer to the practices of Santería Lucumi (Lukumi) as “voodoo” by the media, in television and cinema. Movies and television are notorious for lumping all African Diasporic Traditions into one boat, calling them all voodoo and then mocking them or creating sensationalism that is rooted in cultural misinformation. Tack on to this cross-confusion between Voodoo and Hoodoo and you get a whole other layer of misunderstanding about what Santeria really is. We hope this article will help clarify some confusions, and help set the record straight once and for all.

Santeria and Voodoo are often confused for one another
Both Santeria and Voodoo are religions but they are not the same thing. Let’s begin with an explanation of Voodoo. First, Voodoo is more properly spelled Vodou or Vodoun. There are two main branches to Vodou, Haitian Vodou and Louisiana (or New Orleans) Vodoun.

Haitian Vodou is an African Diasporic Religion that came together from the traditional African religious practices of several tribes, some of whom were rivals forced to survive and depend on one another under the conditions of slavery. These tribes included the Fon, Yoruba, Congo and even elements of the native Taino population that survived in Haiti. These people united their practices in an effort to survive, and created a “regleman” (ritual order) to honor and give each tribe’s spirits their moment of worship. These practices were also influenced through syncretism with French Catholicism. Evidence of this can be seen in the use of Catholic saint images to represent the Lwa (spirits) honored in Vodou. The Lwa (spirits) of Vodou are composed of the Rada Lwa (the vudu and orishas of the Fon and Yoruba people), the Petwo Lwa (the fiery spirits of the Congo, the Taino and modern-Haitian people) and the Gede Lwa (the spirits of the dead). Veves, ornate cornmeal drawings laid out on the ground or on tables, are used to call the Lwa in Vodou, but not in Santeria.

What is the difference between Voodoo, Hoodoo and Santeria?

 

[Razor Reader]

So often I see binary thinking on The Coli when discussing religion in the context of the Black experience.

It isn't uncommon to see some variation of "Abrahamic religions evil, African religious systems good"

People ascribe mysticism to Diaspora syncretic religions : Hoodoo, Vodou, Voodoo, Santeria, Obeah, Queto, etc.

But is this a red herring? Well, lets take a look at a few examples of uprisings across the Diaspora:

Christian Rebellions
Stono Rebellion
Denmark Vesey
Nat Turner
Demerara rebellion of 1823
Baptist War

Muslim Rebellions
Malê revolt

Syncretic and ARS rebellions
Pointe Coupée Conspiracy
Haitian Revolution
First Maroon War
1733 slave insurrection on St. John
Tacky's War

There seems to be no correlation between religion with knowledge of self, impudence, and a desire for agency.

It should also be noted that all 3 religious categories could be found at any single location i.e. Gullah Jack and Denmark Vesey.

The next logical argument would be that the Haitian Revolution succeeded where the other rebellions were suppressed.

However, the sheer number of rebellions across the diaspora meant one was bound to succeed. I wouldn't attribute any fantastical reasons for this but lets analyze a little further:
​

1. Haiti, at the time of the Revolution, was overwhelmingly majority black and had a large population​
2. Haiti is mountainous which provides protection and military advantages​
3. Haiti is an island meaning it is a condensed space thus easier to defend i.e. Citadelle Laferrière​
4. Haiti had a huge maroon population on said small Island​
5. Haiti had a large educated Mulatto population with military backgrounds​
6. The totally different natures and timelines of the American Revolution vs French Revolution​
7. Explicit backing from the French, Spanish and British at various points of the Revolution​

Not to diminish the Haitian Revolution, it inspired rebellions across the diaspora and put colonizers in permanent state of anxiety.

But, I can't think of too many areas in the diaspora that could have a similar situation. Maroon populations, educated Free Blacks and the freedom of movement to "conspire" were not unique to Haiti but the melange was.

Elsewhere, the plantations were not as valuable, the land was too spread out, or the Black population was the minority.

That is not to say there is no value in African religious beliefs. They gave enslaved Africans a language to communicate that was alien to the colonizers.
​

Any books for reference ?

 

[xoxodede]

The people that particiapted in the ceremony were syncretic, yes. It was African people from different ethnicites and all backgrounds converging for a singular religious experience.


The ceremony itself was not syncretic. There is no mention of any Abrahamic gods in the ceremony prayers, except when Boukman basically says "fukk the cac gods"

Dutty Boukman didn't throw in vereses in from Quran.

If syncretic means creolzing or combining multiple religions, then the Boi Caiman ceremony that kicked off the revolution was NOT syncretic.


I would love to see you prove me wrong about my own people's history.


And yes, Haitian Vodou today is syncretic. But not back when Africans straight off the boat didn't know shyt about Roman Catholicism and Christianity...

Haitian Vodou in itself was and still is syncretic.

West African Vodun (Dahomean Vodou) is the originator.

Haitian Vodou is not the Vodun from West Africa in practices and/or pantheons -- as Haitian Vodou is combined/blended with other religions such as Catholicism and Christianity.

The ceremony was also syncretic.

Boukman called upon "God" -- not the spirits of Loa/Lwa nor Mawu/Mahu -- so by him saying "God" --- he was syncretizing the ceremony for all who were in attendance -- as they (the enslaved) always knew "God"' with or without religion (Christian, Vodou, etc).

The following prayer has been attributed to Boukman at the vodou ceremony: "The god who created the earth; who created the sun that gives us light. The god who holds up the ocean; who makes the thunder roar. Our God who has ears to hear. You who are hidden in the clouds; who watch us from where you are. You see all that the white has made us suffer. The white man's god asks him to commit crimes. But the god within us wants to do good. Our god, who is so good, so just, He orders us to revenge our wrongs. It's He who will direct our arms and bring us the victory. It's He who will assist us. We all should throw away the image of the white men's god who is so pitiless. Listen to the voice for liberty that speaks in all our hearts." Source​

And.. neither did Mambo Fatiman.

Even though Fatiman (African/French) did do a pig sacrifice--- and was said to be possessed by Ezili Dantor (Petro Pantheon // associated with Mami Wata). But, she did not evoke or call upon the loa/lwa nor do anything similar to Priyè Gine -- but was/became possessed by Erzulie.

An animal was sacrificed, an oath was taken, and Boukman and the priestess exhorted the listeners to take revenge against their French oppressors and "[c]ast aside the image of the God of the oppressors."[2]​

 

[Concerning VIolence]

Haitian Vodou in itself was and still is syncretic.

West African Vodun (Dahomean Vodou) is the originator.

Haitian Vodou is not the Vodun from West Africa in practices and/or pantheons -- as Haitian Vodou is combined/blended with other religions such as Catholicism and Christianity.

The ceremony was also syncretic.

Boukman called upon "God" -- not the spirits of Loa/Lwa nor Mawu/Mahu -- so by him saying "God" --- he was syncretizing the ceremony for all who were in attendance -- as they (the enslaved) always knew "God"' with or without religion (Christian, Vodou, etc).

The following prayer has been attributed to Boukman at the vodou ceremony: "The god who created the earth; who created the sun that gives us light. The god who holds up the ocean; who makes the thunder roar. Our God who has ears to hear. You who are hidden in the clouds; who watch us from where you are. You see all that the white has made us suffer. The white man's god asks him to commit crimes. But the god within us wants to do good. Our god, who is so good, so just, He orders us to revenge our wrongs. It's He who will direct our arms and bring us the victory. It's He who will assist us. We all should throw away the image of the white men's god who is so pitiless. Listen to the voice for liberty that speaks in all our hearts." Source​

And.. neither did Mambo Fatiman.

Even though Fatiman (African/French) did do a pig sacrifice--- and was said to be possessed by Ezili Dantor (Petro Pantheon // associated with Mami Wata). But, she did not evoke or call upon the loa/lwa nor do anything similar to Priyè Gine -- but was/became possessed by Erzulie.

An animal was sacrificed, an oath was taken, and Boukman and the priestess exhorted the listeners to take revenge against their French oppressors and "[c]ast aside the image of the God of the oppressors."[2]​

How many times are you illterate fukks gonna keep repeating the same shyt at me.

I know Vodou isn't a 100 perent replica of Vodun.





Boukman was not referring to a Abrahamic God you dummy. "God" is interchangable with just a creator. That's not syncretism. Calling upon Jesus or Muhammed .would be syncretism.


And conviently none of you have been able to source any actual catholicism or christianity in the Boi Caiman ceremony.



English Translation: " Throw away the symbol of the god of the whites " - Dutty Boukman.


Do you know what that line means? Catholicism and Christianity are symbols of "the god of the whites".

 

[Poitier]

This dude just keep digging a bigger hole for himself lol

 

[Akata Man Bromo]

@Diasporan Royalty when you say AA's use Christianity incorrectly what do you mean? I've been telling my boys this for a while I just want to see if we're on the same page.