Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[Derek Lee]

Build around both. And KP has stated MANY times how much it means to him have Melo around.

I don't care what KP wants. This team ain't contending for shyt with Melo as your best player on the roster. There's a 12 year gap between them and their timelines won't match when KP will coming into his own as the franchise player while Melo will probably be washed by then. Anthony is gradually gonna decline as he gets older. Look at the last three years: his overall FG%, 3P%, scoring' FT rate and FG% at the rim have been decreasing slowly and it will only get worse as his body ages and he loses some of his athleticism. He's not even a top 20 player at the moment.

The East isn't that strong. The only contending team is Cleveland & that's if Bron decides to stay.

There's no quick fix for this team especially when you look at the landscape of the Eastern conference. The eight playoff teams plus non playoff like Washington, Milwaukee, and Orlando all have more promising more in the present than the Knicks do as the roster is currently constructed which is why it makes perfect sense to trade Carmelo after he's coming his a very good season IF he's willing to waive his NTC (not gonna do it. I know. )

 

[Mr. Jack Napier]

I don't care what KP wants. This team ain't contending for shyt with Melo as your best player on the roster. There's a 12 year gap between them and their timelines won't match when KP will coming into his own as the franchise player while Melo will probably be washed by then. Anthony is gradually gonna decline as he gets older. Look at the last three years: his overall FG%, 3P%, scoring' FT rate and FG% at the rim have been decreasing slowly and it will only get worse as his body ages and he loses some of his athleticism. He's not even a top 20 player at the moment.



There's no quick fix for this team especially when you look at the landscape of the Eastern conference. The eight playoff teams plus non playoff like Washington, Milwaukee, and Orlando all have more promising more in the present than the Knicks do as the roster is currently constructed which is why it makes perfect sense to trade Carmelo after he's coming his a very good season IF he's willing to waive his NTC (not gonna do it. I know. )

All assumptions fam. I'm hoping KP becomes the franchise player when Melo's time is up, but their is no need to rush KP's development. Let him grow & mature as a player first before you give him the keys to the franchise.

 

[Derek Lee]

All assumptions fam.

Nope. You're making the assumption that he can produce at an all star level when he's coming off a significant knee injury for the next three years at the ages of 33, 34 and 35. In the last 2-3 years, Anthony's gone from a top 10-15 player to 20-25 player now. It will probably only get worse from now because father time is undefeated in the NBA.

All assumptions fam. I'm hoping KP becomes the franchise player when Melo's time is up, but their is no need to rush KP's development. Let him grow & mature as a player first before you give him the keys to the franchise.

Why wouldn't I give the keys to Porzingis after three straight years of missing the playoffs when Melo has been the best player on the team? KP is twelve years younger and has a skillset that is MUCH easier to build around as a potential two way player. What the hell do you guys see in Melo? In his 13 years in the NBA, Anthony has only advanced twice past the first round of the playoffs and only Conference finals appearance on his resume. Your team is not going to have a high ceiling, because a ball dominant isolation heavy scorer who has to have very specific pieces around him to do dirty work for him is only going to take you so far. In first three years of arrival in NY, the Knicks have only advanced the first round of the playoffs once in a relatively weak Eastern conference. There's no quick fix for this team. Much rather have cap space and higher draft picks than signing Conley to the max, mid tier draft picks and early first round exits.

 

[storyteller]

Nope. You're making the assumption that he can produce at an all star level when he's coming off a significant knee injury for the next three years at the ages of 33, 34 and 35. In the last 2-3 years, Anthony's gone from a top 10-15 player to 20-25 player now. It will probably only get worse from now because father time is undefeated in the NBA.

Well no, it's just an assumption that keeping Melo buys you more time to develop and evaluate KP before you put the strain of being the focus of defenses and the face of the franchise on him. It's not assuming Melo never regresses, just assuming that for the time being, Melo is better prepared to handle that. I totally agree that we shouldn't mortgage our future unless it's gonna give us strong odds at being contenders; but there's an NTC involved here and KP's development might actually be helped by not rushing him before he's physically ready to carry the load for a franchise. If Melo will waive his NTC and we can get some real future building blocks, I'm with it; but if we brought in a quality coach I'm not opposed to another year seeing what the Melo/KP/RoLo frontcourt does with an upgraded backcourt (all in on the Bazemore/Crabbe/Fournier bandwagon here whether we move Melo or not)

 

[Mr. Jack Napier]

Nope. You're making the assumption that he can produce at an all star level when he's coming off a significant knee injury for the next three years at the ages of 33, 34 and 35. In the last 2-3 years, Anthony's gone from a top 10-15 player to 20-25 player now. It will probably only get worse from now because father time is undefeated in the NBA.

Why wouldn't I give the keys to Porzingis after three straight years of missing the playoffs when Melo has been the best player on the team? KP is twelve years younger and has a skillset that is MUCH easier to build around as a potential two way player. What the hell do you guys see in Melo? In his 13 years in the NBA, Anthony has only advanced twice past the first round of the playoffs and only Conference finals appearance on his resume. Your team is not going to have a high ceiling, because a ball dominant isolation heavy scorer who has to have very specific pieces around him to do dirty work for him is only going to take you so far. In first three years of arrival in NY, the Knicks have only advanced the first round of the playoffs once in a relatively weak Eastern conference. There's no quick fix for this team. Much rather have cap space and higher draft picks than signing Conley to the max, mid tier draft picks and early first round exits.

Give Melo a capable 2nd scorer and see what happens. (Which I highly believe that KP is capable of being). And we still blaming Melo for falling short in a LOADED western conference when his Nuggets team ran into the Lakers or Spurs every other year. And again, why can't you build around BOTH KP & Melo. Knicks fans always do this, we have to have one or the other, never both. You need at minimum 2 stars on your team to make noise in the league at this age.

Plus with Melo's skill set, he won't have as much of a fall off like other players who rely solely on their athleticism. Boston won with an aging Pierce, so it is doable.

 

[RickyGQ]

I'm convinced Phil floated Rambis rumors just to make the fan base ok with whoever he signs.

 

[Slic Ric]

Rather have Blatt that any of his guys. Also Afflalo can kick rocks

 

[Carolina Slim]

I'm convinced Phil floated Rambis rumors just to make the fan base ok with whoever he signs.

 

[storyteller]

I'm convinced Phil floated Rambis rumors just to make the fan base ok with whoever he signs.

Man, I hear Dolan and Thibs had issues when Thibs first got the boot. Praying that's not true, because I fully believe Lin not getting even a whiff is because of Dolan. Dude holds grudges. But I'm tryna convince him to let me interview Thibs, I'm pushing that Rambis is number two on the list

Real talk...Rambis quotes are too damned comfortable. He's talkin' about adding triangle fits already like he knows too much. I really hope this is an okey doke though, that was my first instinct after the actual Phil interview.

 

[Derek Lee]

Well no,

No, you should Melo probably trade RIGHT NOW when he's coming off a very good season. He's a steadily declining asset as evidenced by his FG%, 3P%, FTA, and scoring averages have all dipped gradually these past three years. Look at the players like Melo who didn't heavily rely on their athleticism at the tail end of their careers.

Pierce's numbers from age 33-35 (this is probably best case for Melo)

Joe Johnson from age 33-35
Both players got traded at different points of their respective careers, and Celtics and Hawks have reaped the benefits of those deals. ATL looks like they're gonna contend for another Eastern Conference finals appearance and Boston traded away two aging stars (who actually helped their team win a NBA championship) for most likely top 5 lottery picks.

it's just an assumption that keeping Melo buys you more time to develop and evaluate KP before you put the strain of being the focus of defenses and the face of the franchise on him. It's not assuming Melo never regresses, just assuming that for the time being, Melo is better prepared to handle that.

These are fair points.

I totally agree that we shouldn't mortgage our future unless it's gonna give us strong odds at being contenders; but there's an NTC involved here and KP's development might actually be helped by not rushing him before he's physically ready to carry the load for a franchise. If Melo will waive his NTC and we can get some real future building blocks, I'm with it; but if we brought in a quality coach I'm not opposed to another year seeing what the Melo/KP/RoLo frontcourt does with an upgraded backcourt (all in on the Bazemore/Crabbe/Fournier bandwagon here whether we move Melo or not)

He got booed mercilessly at Barclays Center during draft night, but he has handled media and fan scrutiny with great aplomb. KP doesn't need to "physically carry the load of a franchise", because there will be zero expectations for this team to do anything of significance if Melo is off the team. Carmelo has three years left on his deal. Cleveland, Boston, Indiana, Toronto, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Detroit, Miami, and Charlotte are all much better equipped to have any type of sustained success during that time, because they have better front offices, ownership and/or younger rosters than New York does as currently constructed do. No first round draft pick because of the Bargnani trade.
Durant and second tier free agents like Derozan, Horford and Batum aren't going to sign with the Knicks, either. The only assets are the current roster Melo, KP and maybe Grant??? This team isn't gonna be good next year as well even if they added younger wings/guards like Clarkson, Crabbe and Fournier and a proven NBA coach. I'd rather be at the position of bottoming out this year when the team actually has their first round picks moving forward in a stronger draft class and cap space to maneuver around in a much better class for guards/wings in the 2017 free agency class than the Knicks thread in mediocrity at around .500 next year with very little to no cap space at all, and mid-round picks.

 

[Derek Lee]

Give Melo a capable 2nd scorer and see what happens. (Which I highly believe that KP is capable of being). And we still blaming Melo for falling short in a LOADED western conference when his Nuggets team ran into the Lakers or Spurs every other year. And again, why can't you build around BOTH KP & Melo. Knicks fans always do this, we have to have one or the other, never both. You need at minimum 2 stars on your team to make noise in the league at this age.

Plus with Melo's skill set, he won't have as much of a fall off like other players who rely solely on their athleticism. Boston won with an aging Pierce, so it is doable.

Nah, you and the rest of the Melo stans are delusional. The number of excuses you make this dude are comical. He deserves blame for falling short, because he's only had 2 appearances past the first round as the best player on those Knicks and Nuggets. 13 years is a more than small sample size to account for shortcomings as the best player of franchise player. There's no quick fix for this mess of a team right now. This short sighted type of win now mentality has been the undoing of this franchise for the past 15 years.

 

[storyteller]

No, you should Melo probably trade RIGHT NOW when he's coming off a very good season. He's a steadily declining asset as evidenced by his FG%, 3P%, FTA, and scoring averages have all dipped gradually these past three years. Look at the players like Melo who didn't heavily rely on their athleticism at the tail end of their careers.

Pierce's numbers from age 33-35 (this is probably best case for Melo)

Joe Johnson from age 33-35
Both players got traded at different points of their respective careers, and Celtics and Hawks have reaped the benefits of those deals. ATL looks like they're gonna contend for another Eastern Conference finals appearance and Boston traded away two aging stars (who actually helped their team win a NBA championship) for most likely top 5 lottery picks.

Hey listen, my stance in December was now will be the time to move Melo; but I'd want a big return (like Pierce and KG commanded...what was it four picks? pretty much two a pop). JJ was a salary dump, I'm not really with moving a 22, 8 and 4 player for a protected pick and spare pieces. But Melo might not waive the clause, his behavior lately makes me think there won't be a trade this offseason regardless of what we're offered. Also, I'd push RIGHT NOW back to after the max contracts are signed. There will be squads on the outside looking in, having missed on the max players; those are the desperate GM's you can try to rob.

He got booed mercilessly at Barclays Center during draft night, but he has handled media and fan scrutiny with great aplomb. KP doesn't need to "physically carry the load of a franchise", because there will be zero expectations for this team to do anything of significance if Melo is off the team. Carmelo has three years left on his deal. Cleveland, Boston, Indiana, Toronto, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Detroit, Miami, and Charlotte are all much better equipped to have any type of sustained success during that time, because they have better front offices, ownership and/or younger rosters than New York does as currently constructed do. No first round draft pick because of the Bargnani trade.
Durant and second tier free agents like Derozan, Horford and Batum aren't going to sign with the Knicks, either. The only assets are the current roster Melo, KP and maybe Grant??? This team isn't gonna be good next year as well even if they added younger wings/guards like Clarkson, Crabbe and Fournier and a proven NBA coach. I'd rather be at the position of bottoming out this year when the team actually has their first round picks moving forward in a stronger draft class and cap space to maneuver around in a much better class for guards/wings in the 2017 free agency class than the Knicks thread in mediocrity at around .500 next year with very little to no cap space at all, and mid-round picks.

Again, there are signs that Melo's staying whether we add Batum or Crabbe. The difference is adding Crabbe is cheaper, he's younger and still improving and if Melo regresses we'll bottom out naturally but with young talent instead of Batum trying to keep us in the race. If Melo's willing to waive his NTC we can revisit it, but right now; you can conserve future cap space by going young even if you can't dump Melo. That way, if Melo regresses like you think...we bottom out anyway. If Melo doesn't regress, the team has gotten younger, more talented and conserved cap space to sell to the better FA class. Once more, operate on the notion that Melo has given no indication he'll waive his NTC...we gotta get some alternatives in mind and that's either going all in to win now...or keep loading the youth until he will waive the clause.

Also, in that scenario we could make attempts to use the saved cap space when the new salaries start to reek havoc on luxury tax teams. If a team wants to re-sign a player at the new premium costs, they could look to unload expirings for tax savings. That could get us a future asset or two for pretty much nothing but Dolan's signature on one more pay check to somebody. It's not as pretty as a promised top ten pick, but it's a possibility with this unpredictable FA period in the new tv deal world and it's one we can do if Melo isn't willing to waive the clause.

 

[Derek Lee]

Hey listen, my stance in December was now will be the time to move Melo; but I'd want a big return (like Pierce and KG commanded...what was it four picks? pretty much two a pop). JJ was a salary dump, I'm not really with moving a 22, 8 and 4 player for a protected pick and spare pieces.

I don't think the preferable teams (Clippers, Heat and Rockets) that Melo wants to be traded to are going to realistically offer that kind of package to the Knicks. Even a late lottery pick and supplemental younger role players would be fine for me.

 

[RickyGQ]

Man, I hear Dolan and Thibs had issues when Thibs first got the boot. Praying that's not true, because I fully believe Lin not getting even a whiff is because of Dolan. Dude holds grudges. But I'm tryna convince him to let me interview Thibs, I'm pushing that Rambis is number two on the list

Real talk...Rambis quotes are too damned comfortable. He's talkin' about adding triangle fits already like he knows too much. I really hope this is an okey doke though, that was my first instinct after the actual Phil interview.

Dog two months ago it was...

Blatt?!?

Now it's...

Blatt?

 

[nieman]

if we can't (which we won't) bring Jeff & Patrick home, Blatt isn't a bad choice at all. And for Blatt, Melo actually listens to his coaches.

But I'm still hopeful for the return. I mean, what can they say about Patrick that he hasn't already heard? Hell, he could mentor Melo on being the not so public vet.