Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[DPresidential]

You cold blooded, dude said Patrick tired of being an assistant so bring him here to be an assistant to Thibs

That's my GOAT though.

 

[Kitsch]

Ewing as coach.

 

[GhostoftheMan]

Melo basically saying he ain't doing a year of that porn addicted fakkit

 

[I.V.]

He's right
Like I said, Phil Melo and Dolan should all be working together
All of em reading different books

Nah, he's not. Unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, Carmelo is no longer in the long term plans for the knicks. He can no longer be the driving force or guiding hand behind any decisions this team makes, because our improvement timeline outlasts his time here.

That being said, hopefully he's on board with a coach like Thibs... because that's what's best for the team. And hopefully he's against Rambis, because THAT is what's best for the team.


We have to be realistic about what the coming 18 months is going to look like:
- This team is not going to be good next season.
- There is going to be increasing frustration from Carmelo, assuming the team does not make great strides.
- There will be pressure to trade for vets to "compete" -- or make a playoff spot.

I am not in a "phil gotta go" panic yet, because the last time we had zero picks in a draft, he ended up acquiring three guys. The last time the free agent market was thin, he made solid decisions to get decent value on short deals. That is the kind of thinking we could use this offseason, too. If rambis is the coach next year, it hurts Porzingis' development, but it will also help us get a higher pick.

This summer:
Buy a late first or early second pick (or two, or three) -- there are guys like Malik Beasley, Zubac/Petr, Bembry, LeVert, Murray... guys that could really help us in a bunch of ways.

Make a solid signing or two to bolster the backcourt/wings. (or just sign kd bless up)

And then push forward next season, figure out how best to use KP as a flexible stretch 5, get him open jumpers, allow him to operate from the high post, and work the low post when they try to put a shorter guy on him, etc. Keep him in motion, because as a cutter he's damn near unstoppable.

Next year is going to be a deep, deep draft class. If we end up with a top 10-12 pick, that's a good thing.


Of course, they could flip melo this off season, and we might be starting over more quickly. But the long term projection doesn't really change unless we land a massive free agent.

 

[Frump]

Nah, he's not. Unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, Carmelo is no longer in the long term plans for the knicks. He can no longer be the driving force or guiding hand behind any decisions this team makes, because our improvement timeline outlasts his time here.

That being said, hopefully he's on board with a coach like Thibs... because that's what's best for the team. And hopefully he's against Rambis, because THAT is what's best for the team.


We have to be realistic about what the coming 18 months is going to look like:
- This team is not going to be good next season.
- There is going to be increasing frustration from Carmelo, assuming the team does not make great strides.
- There will be pressure to trade for vets to "compete" -- or make a playoff spot.

I am not in a "phil gotta go" panic yet, because the last time we had zero picks in a draft, he ended up acquiring three guys. The last time the free agent market was thin, he made solid decisions to get decent value on short deals. That is the kind of thinking we could use this offseason, too. If rambis is the coach next year, it hurts Porzingis' development, but it will also help us get a higher pick.

This summer:
Buy a late first or early second pick (or two, or three) -- there are guys like Malik Beasley, Zubac/Petr, Bembry, LeVert, Murray... guys that could really help us in a bunch of ways.

Make a solid signing or two to bolster the backcourt/wings. (or just sign kd bless up)

And then push forward next season, figure out how best to use KP as a flexible stretch 5, get him open jumpers, allow him to operate from the high post, and work the low post when they try to put a shorter guy on him, etc. Keep him in motion, because as a cutter he's damn near unstoppable.

Next year is going to be a deep, deep draft class. If we end up with a top 10-12 pick, that's a good thing.


Of course, they could flip melo this off season, and we might be starting over more quickly. But the long term projection doesn't really change unless we land a massive free agent.

Unfortunately Thibs is part of the Jvg camp Jackson would rather eat shyt then hire somebody associated with him.

As far as the Melo thing I agree but i don't think Dolan nor Jackson have the patience to think that long term

I fully expect the Knicks to overpay a 2nd tier player like a Conley this offseason as opposed to trading Melo or at least getting a lot younger and shaping the roster with Kp in mind not Melo and his timeclock

 

[RickyGQ]

Melo saying "we have to listen to other candidates out there." Isn't much of an endorsement of Rambis...

 

[I.V.]

Unfortunately Thibs is part of the Jvg camp Jackson would rather eat shyt then hire somebody associated with him.

This is actually more of a Dolan beef than a Jackson beef. But I agree. Still, you hope he'll do what's best.

As far as the Melo thing I agree but i don't think Dolan nor Jackson have the patience to think that long term

Jackson has already proven he's willing to think long term. He's drafted guys that are stashes, he stayed away from overpaying guys longterm last summer. He drafted a project.

I fully expect the Knicks to overpay a 2nd tier player like a Conley this offseason as opposed to trading Melo or at least getting a lot younger and shaping the roster with Kp in mind not Melo and his timeclock

This would be terrible. Conley probably makes them a contender for a playoff spot, but, yeah, longterm it's not a great investment.

 

[seemorecizzy]

Nah, he's not. Unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, Carmelo is no longer in the long term plans for the knicks. He can no longer be the driving force or guiding hand behind any decisions this team makes, because our improvement timeline outlasts his time here.

That being said, hopefully he's on board with a coach like Thibs... because that's what's best for the team. And hopefully he's against Rambis, because THAT is what's best for the team.


We have to be realistic about what the coming 18 months is going to look like:
- This team is not going to be good next season.
- There is going to be increasing frustration from Carmelo, assuming the team does not make great strides.
- There will be pressure to trade for vets to "compete" -- or make a playoff spot.

I am not in a "phil gotta go" panic yet, because the last time we had zero picks in a draft, he ended up acquiring three guys. The last time the free agent market was thin, he made solid decisions to get decent value on short deals. That is the kind of thinking we could use this offseason, too. If rambis is the coach next year, it hurts Porzingis' development, but it will also help us get a higher pick.

This summer:
Buy a late first or early second pick (or two, or three) -- there are guys like Malik Beasley, Zubac/Petr, Bembry, LeVert, Murray... guys that could really help us in a bunch of ways.

Make a solid signing or two to bolster the backcourt/wings. (or just sign kd bless up)

And then push forward next season, figure out how best to use KP as a flexible stretch 5, get him open jumpers, allow him to operate from the high post, and work the low post when they try to put a shorter guy on him, etc. Keep him in motion, because as a cutter he's damn near unstoppable.

Next year is going to be a deep, deep draft class. If we end up with a top 10-12 pick, that's a good thing.


Of course, they could flip melo this off season, and we might be starting over more quickly. But the long term projection doesn't really change unless we land a massive free agent.

if you read between the lines of what melo says, you can he doesn't want rambis and wants thibs

you can't resign a guy for 5 years and then say hes no longer in our long term plans. doesn't make sense

they re signed him, he is here for the immediate future, (and i'm not here debating whether he should be or not cause its already done) so while he is here, you make moves that can maximize the remaining time he has here

you work together with him to find moves that can help now, and won't jepoardize the future when he may or may not be here.

just seems like common sense to me.

whether the coli likes him or not, he is a popular guy around the league and is respected and has pull with other great players

he pretty much got us the aldrich interview until phil messed it up

rondo went from dissing the triangle to saying he can play in any system once he heard melo wanted him

hes best friends with lebron wade and chris paul and they all would want to play with him if the situation is correct

a good gm uses these things to their advantage, lets him sit in during free agent meetings and involve him in the process.

distancing him and having this "i run the show" ego isnt helping anyone

and i agree zingis should be moved to the 5

but i don't agree that phil did well in free agency last summer, or the summer before that

hes done a pretty shytty job and he's been living off his 11 rings. dude didn't even start traveling with the team until his buddie rambis became coach lol

u can't tell me dude is giving maximize effort. every day you gotta ppl wondering if hes trying to troll himself out of the job.

 

[seemorecizzy]

Melo saying "we have to listen to other candidates out there." Isn't much of an endorsement of Rambis...

hes been laid back the last two years
enough is enough

 

[storyteller]

Nah, he's not. Unfortunately, no matter how you slice it, Carmelo is no longer in the long term plans for the knicks. He can no longer be the driving force or guiding hand behind any decisions this team makes, because our improvement timeline outlasts his time here.

That being said, hopefully he's on board with a coach like Thibs... because that's what's best for the team. And hopefully he's against Rambis, because THAT is what's best for the team.

Thing is, whether he's in their long term plans or not, he's been the leader in that locker room this year. The players deserve input on this, at least the guys locked in for next year and beyond. As long as it's not a Lebron "my way or I'm sabotaging" situation (which I don't think Melo's behavior this year suggests he'd do that), I think Melo's input could be helpful.

We have to be realistic about what the coming 18 months is going to look like:
- This team is not going to be good next season.
- There is going to be increasing frustration from Carmelo, assuming the team does not make great strides.
- There will be pressure to trade for vets to "compete" -- or make a playoff spot.

Team won't be a contender next season, but whether it will be good or not is up in the air. That's a huge assumption really with so many variables involved. There's near 20 million of cap space before you factor the potential opt outs; there are a slew of young developing players whose improvement could give the team a bump (Grant and KP being the major considerations); and the big one is coaching selection. If Thibs come here, flat out, I expect him to field a good team (barring a Melo trade and full rebuild move). Way too many variables to just dismiss next season before some of those pieces fall into place.

I am not in a "phil gotta go" panic yet, because the last time we had zero picks in a draft, he ended up acquiring three guys. The last time the free agent market was thin, he made solid decisions to get decent value on short deals. That is the kind of thinking we could use this offseason, too. If rambis is the coach next year, it hurts Porzingis' development, but it will also help us get a higher pick.

Yeah, I don't think many GM's could have gone this long without risking future flexibility. This offseason will be the one that decides my feelings on Phil's job here. He's got multiple options with which direction (win now or rebuild) and there are ways to make either option work. Rambis signing for 2 years would be an issue with me though, I'd rather have KP developing properly and the 15th pick in the draft than KP's growth stagnating but a top 10 pick. I see both sides, just preference.

This summer:
Buy a late first or early second pick (or two, or three) -- there are guys like Malik Beasley, Zubac/Petr, Bembry, LeVert, Murray... guys that could really help us in a bunch of ways.

Make a solid signing or two to bolster the backcourt/wings. (or just sign kd bless up)

And then push forward next season, figure out how best to use KP as a flexible stretch 5, get him open jumpers, allow him to operate from the high post, and work the low post when they try to put a shorter guy on him, etc. Keep him in motion, because as a cutter he's damn near unstoppable.

Next year is going to be a deep, deep draft class. If we end up with a top 10-12 pick, that's a good thing.

Of course, they could flip melo this off season, and we might be starting over more quickly. But the long term projection doesn't really change unless we land a massive free agent.

Yeah, I'm cool with that offseason. I'd rather see the team focus on KP's future than anything Melo related for sure. Gimme Crabbe or Fournier with the money Rondo wants. Try to find a way to trade for a PG because otherwise, I don't see real standout options. I also want a mobile big added, a pure PF (not an expensive one, just bench option since we've been forced to run SF's or C's at the spot this season). That oughtta leave enough cap space where we could look for teams that need luxury tax relief after spending big on free agency; grab an expiring for a protected pick or second round picks and just keep stockpiling the future assets that way. I'm not planning for Melo waiving the NTC because he doesn't seem interested in that, but regardless, I think all of those moves work both ways.

 

[storyteller]

Oh and just to throw it in, there are a couple of long shot scenarios I like, but HIGHLY DOUBT happen. Scott Brooks coaching which entices KD to come rock with Melo and the Unicorn. Maxing Horford, flipping RoLo for Teague to replace the hole at C (this might actually have a shot if we went after Gasol instead of Horford but I don't want Gasol at his probable cost).

Any win-now scenario should probably start with a long hard look at stealing Wade from Miami. I don't want a win-now scenario, but if we're gonna move forward with Melo. Having Wade/Melo/KP might actually get the attention of other quality FA's. If they're looking at Rondo, might as well go for the better aging, injury threatened Guard on the market.

 

[seemorecizzy]

Oh and just to throw it in, there are a couple of long shot scenarios I like, but HIGHLY DOUBT happen. Scott Brooks coaching which entices KD to come rock with Melo and the Unicorn. Maxing Horford, flipping RoLo for Teague to replace the hole at C (this might actually have a shot if we went after Gasol instead of Horford but I don't want Gasol at his probable cost).

Any win-now scenario should probably start with a long hard look at stealing Wade from Miami. I don't want a win-now scenario, but if we're gonna move forward with Melo. Having Wade/Melo/KP might actually get the attention of other quality FA's. If they're looking at Rondo, might as well go for the better aging, injury threatened Guard on the market.

exactly
bottom line is, i'm not buying this "ohh no one comes want to come here, poor knicks" cop out
no, theres moves to be made out there
whether free agency, trades or whatever
there also strategic coaching hirings that could be made

do your job, take it seriously, hire the best staff whether they are your friends or not, and do what you have to do build a proper team

 

[I.V.]

you can't resign a guy for 5 years and then say hes no longer in our long term plans. doesn't make sense
they re signed him, he is here for the immediate future, (and i'm not here debating whether he should be or not cause its already done) so while he is here, you make moves that can maximize the remaining time he has here
you work together with him to find moves that can help now, and won't jepoardize the future when he may or may not be here.

This is a nice idea, but isn't realistic. You don't generally get to make moves that "help now and don't jeopardize the future" -- in most situations, you are forced to pick a direction. You can't ride the fence.


whether the coli likes him or not, he is a popular guy around the league and is respected and has pull with other great players
he pretty much got us the aldrich interview until phil messed it up
rondo went from dissing the triangle to saying he can play in any system once he heard melo wanted him

None of this matters. Melo's presence has not generated one significant team addition.

hes best friends with lebron wade and chris paul and they all would want to play with him if the situation is correct
a good gm uses these things to their advantage, lets him sit in during free agent meetings and involve him in the process.
distancing him and having this "i run the show" ego isnt helping anyone

Melo forced a trade to the Knicks that gutted the roster. Nobody has shown an interest in playing with him in any kind of fruitful way. If somebody comes along and signs, KD, LeBron opt-out, etc. Then that's incredible. But so far, he has done literally nothing to attract talent.

So drop that argument, it's silly.


and i agree zingis should be moved to the 5
but i don't agree that phil did well in free agency last summer, or the summer before that
hes done a pretty shytty job and he's been living off his 11 rings. dude didn't even start traveling with the team until his buddie rambis became coach lol

He got decent players, on short deals that made sense for the team. Derrick Williams has been better than expected, O'Quinn too, He went into a draft with zero picks, and got three players, plus drafted KP. He's not making miracles happen, but he's made solid plays with an eye towards improving the team long term. He even drafted two stash players, to let them develop, something this team has never done. And one of them (Willy) is going to be a solid player for us.

He's not winning executive of the year, but he's making smart decisions for the team's future.

u can't tell me dude is giving maximize effort. every day you gotta ppl wondering if hes trying to troll himself out of the job.

"Maximum effort" is some shyt people say that don't understand the business. GM's in baseball don't travel to every game. Hockey either. He's an executive. He doesn't have to be at every away game, who cares? Travelling with the team is not a thing that matters. Acquiring talent for the team, and setting them on the right path is.

Thing is, whether he's in their long term plans or not, he's been the leader in that locker room this year. The players deserve input on this, at least the guys locked in for next year and beyond. As long as it's not a Lebron "my way or I'm sabotaging" situation (which I don't think Melo's behavior this year suggests he'd do that), I think Melo's input could be helpful.

No, they don't. If you want to include them, that is one management style. But players don't pick coaches, GM's do, and owners pick GM's. That's how it works. You don't let players pick coaches, because what a player wants is not always what is best for them or the team. The NBA is a players' league moreso than any other sport, and yet... you still need to have a situation where the coach is removed from the players, in order to give them some perspective.

Team won't be a contender next season, but whether it will be good or not is up in the air. That's a huge assumption really with so many variables involved.

Not really. Look at their talent level. Look at how much it would have to increase in order to be a "good" team, to be comparable with other "good" teams. Of course there are variables, but barring a major signing/developement (trade, ect) this roster is going to have smaller additions, and is NOT going to be strong enough to be considered "good" -- just as it wasn't this season.

I hope I'm wrong, I hope they make great moves to get great talent... but you have to be objective in identifying what this team has right now, which is: not a lot.

There's near 20 million of cap space before you factor the potential opt outs; there are a slew of young developing players whose improvement could give the team a bump (Grant and KP being the major considerations); and the big one is coaching selection. If Thibs come here, flat out, I expect him to field a good team (barring a Melo trade and full rebuild move). Way too many variables to just dismiss next season before some of those pieces fall into place.

If they hire Thibs, I think they'll be solid. He's a good coach, and it would be the surest move to guaranteeing them playing well. But even with improvement from Grant and KP... this roster is weak. If you look through the list of Free Agents, and consider the prices... 20M is not that much month this coming year AND I'm not sure most of the guys that would bring moderate improvement are worth the investment.

Hiring Thibs would be the surest way to make them respectable. I'm all for it.


Yeah, I don't think many GM's could have gone this long without risking future flexibility. This offseason will be the one that decides my feelings on Phil's job here. He's got multiple options with which direction (win now or rebuild) and there are ways to make either option work.

There is no "win now" option. The team isn't strong enough. Barring a miracle -- LeBron opting out and coming to NYC, KD signing, etc. There is no "win now" option that is acceptable. Period. They can't win now. Because they are not good.

Gimme Crabbe or Fournier with the money Rondo wants.

Crabbe would be great. Bazemore too.

Oh and just to throw it in, there are a couple of long shot scenarios I like, but HIGHLY DOUBT happen. Scott Brooks coaching which entices KD to come rock with Melo and the Unicorn. Maxing Horford, flipping RoLo for Teague to replace the hole at C (this might actually have a shot if we went after Gasol instead of Horford but I don't want Gasol at his probable cost).

Any win-now scenario should probably start with a long hard look at stealing Wade from Miami. I don't want a win-now scenario, but if we're gonna move forward with Melo. Having Wade/Melo/KP might actually get the attention of other quality FA's. If they're looking at Rondo, might as well go for the better aging, injury threatened Guard on the market.

This is the kind of thinking that ruins a roster. Investing in Wade or Rondo is a mistake. They are old, they are expensive, and they will not win us a championship. Period. They are not players that will put us over the top, they will put us into the middle of the East, at best.

Nobody likes rooting for a bad team, but at least this bad team has one potential star, and is making moves KNOWING that they are 2 years away from being competitive, barring FA/Trade miracles. Fans need to get over this pipedream shyt with old washedup "superteams" --- there is only one superteam, and their best players are all under 30. Giving large deals to guys that are devolving before our eyes is a bad plan. And I'm a little shocked that people on this board are still talking about that.

How many times does it have to fail, before you get over it?

 

[storyteller]

This is the kind of thinking that ruins a roster. Investing in Wade or Rondo is a mistake. They are old, they are expensive, and they will not win us a championship. Period. They are not players that will put us over the top, they will put us into the middle of the East, at best.

Nobody likes rooting for a bad team, but at least this bad team has one potential star, and is making moves KNOWING that they are 2 years away from being competitive, barring FA/Trade miracles. Fans need to get over this pipedream shyt with old washedup "superteams" --- there is only one superteam, and their best players are all under 30. Giving large deals to guys that are devolving before our eyes is a bad plan. And I'm a little shocked that people on this board are still talking about that.

How many times does it have to fail, before you get over it?

A team with any decent PG, Wade, Melo, KP, RoLo; coached by Thibs, has a very high ceiling. The window is only one or two years, but the upside of that group healthy is very high. At the very least it's gonna be a good team, which you categorically dismissed. I get having a cynical view on this, but let's not pretend this can't be a playoff team if Phil chooses to go win-now. He'd need to be smart, it'd require a much better coach than Rambis, but stop exaggerating.

 

[Miles Davis]

Wade ain't coming man