Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[Malta]

Well to start with, I don't agree with "the Knicks are most likely going to miss the playoffs" because it's a gross oversimplification. How far can Melo take them? His averages in our wins are right around his career averages, which suggests that Melo at his typical production gives us a solid shot at the playoffs. So theoretically, if he gets back to healthy Melo, we should be competitive and get closer to 40 wins than 35. Even so, I fully acknowledge that there's gonna be a real battle for 7th and 8th and that might not be enough to get them there...but that doesn't preclude me to dealing him in a rush since we don't have a draft pick anyway and my belief is we'll get better offers in the offseason. At that time there will be teams who miss on the max FA's available and will need to bounce back on alternatives. Melo would become an attractive option when he otherwise wouldn't have been.

So if the Knicks are out of the playoff race by the deadline, the Rockets still have to give me a BIG return. Otherwise, I'll hold off based on an educated risk. I'd be counting on his knee improving and thus his play improving which would in turn increase his value. I'd also count on the teams who miss on FA's being more open to a deal for Melo than they would have been (and in that scenario they can eat his contract without us having to match contracts). So this is not to advocate hanging on to Melo at all costs at all. This is saying that I believe the best way to maximize his value is a more patient approach and that would also buy us more time (and information) to have clarity in our next roster moves.

They are most likely going to miss the playoffs, you can call it what you want but the fact remains there are teams better situated for making a run than they are. The problem with your stats are that the Knicks are 4-10 vs teams above .500 and Melo's best games have come vs so-so teams. Lets stop and analyze this real quick, we're talking about a max player here and the goal is getting the 7th or 8th seed . The East is no longer that weak, and he's not as good as he was 3 years ago, if they can't make the playoffs with him there's no point in having him. He has a NTC, you're not going to be able to move him to whoever you want in the offseason and if he continues playing like he has then his value will drop.




The best way to maximize his value is to trade him while his value is still high, and he has a NTC so getting a big return on him isn't likely since he can pick his destination. He's 31, you're counting on him getting better or returning to form after a knee surgery? You're not getting big returns in the offseason, you're getting them from a team that is desperate, if the Heat fall out the playoff race you take aim at them, if the Rockets continue to stink it up you go to them. That is how you get the best value for him, not by waiting for him to turn 32 and have scouts take a closer look at him during the season.

 

[storyteller]

Jokic can ball, too, man. Like, I think even MORE SO than Lauvergne.

PLUS they add a high draft pick this year. Luwawu, or Hield, or Ellenson, or Murray.

You're right I forgot about their best big man prospect because Draft Kings priced him out of being useful! Ellenson would be great for them, get Faried in the bench energy role he belongs. They low key have a young crew to go up with anyone short of Minne right now and that's only because Towns is such a sure thing.

 

[storyteller]

My stance hasn't changed, we get a better return for Melo if he waives his NTC now than we could have gotten at the deadline when Boston was the only team showing interest and the reports are they low-balled everybody (reports on Jimmy Butler and Kevin Love trade offers used "low-ball" directly).

 

[Frump]

Melo isn't going anywhere he already is talking about wanting to be apart of the coaching hiring

There was no way he is gonna go to a team where he's a 2nd or 3rd option his ego couldn't handle that

 

[Malta]

My stance hasn't changed, we get a better return for Melo if he waives his NTC now than we could have gotten at the deadline when Boston was the only team showing interest and the reports are they low-balled everybody.

Your stance on the playoffs was terribly wrong

And moving forward, the outlook for the team ain't that great as long as Melo is still on it

 

[storyteller]

Your stance on the playoffs was terribly wrong

And moving forward, the outlook for the team ain't that great as long as Melo is still on it

Your stance on Melo's trade value was terribly wrong and that was our main point of contention

"So if the Knicks are out of the playoff race by the deadline, the Rockets still have to give me a BIG return. Otherwise, I'll hold off based on an educated risk. I'd be counting on his knee improving and thus his play improving which would in turn increase his value. I'd also count on the teams who miss on FA's being more open to a deal for Melo than they would have been (and in that scenario they can eat his contract without us having to match contracts). So this is not to advocate hanging on to Melo at all costs at all. This is saying that I believe the best way to maximize his value is a more patient approach and that would also buy us more time (and information) to have clarity in our next roster moves."



Only deadline offer is from a team that low-balled on offers for Jimmy Butler and Kevin Love. My dude wanted us to tank for the Raptors

 

[Malta]

Your stance on Melo's trade value was terribly wrong and that was our main point of contention

"So if the Knicks are out of the playoff race by the deadline, the Rockets still have to give me a BIG return. Otherwise, I'll hold off based on an educated risk. I'd be counting on his knee improving and thus his play improving which would in turn increase his value. I'd also count on the teams who miss on FA's being more open to a deal for Melo than they would have been (and in that scenario they can eat his contract without us having to match contracts). So this is not to advocate hanging on to Melo at all costs at all. This is saying that I believe the best way to maximize his value is a more patient approach and that would also buy us more time (and information) to have clarity in our next roster moves."



Only deadline offer is from a team that low-balled on offers for Jimmy Butler and Kevin Love.

You said they'd make the playoffs, I said they wouldn't, those posts are from early December

You also didn't think Bostons picks were worth trading Melo, like getting Ben Simmons or Ingram wouldn't be a great return for him, you overvalue him and I don't know what kind of deal you'd want for him if you think the Golden Boston picks aren't worth it, you holding out for Paul George or something breh breh

 

[Trip]

Melo isn't going anywhere he already is talking about wanting to be apart of the coaching hiring

There was no way he is gonna go to a team where he's a 2nd or 3rd option his ego couldn't handle that

Once he signed that last deal it secured him retiring a Knick. Dolan probably will retire his number too.

 

[storyteller]

You said they'd make the playoffs, I said they wouldn't, those posts are from early December

You also didn't think Bostons picks were worth trading Melo, like getting Ben Simmons or Ingram wouldn't be a great return for him, you overvalue him and I don't know what kind of deal you'd want for him if you think the Golden Boston picks aren't worth it, you holding out for Paul George or something breh breh

My prediction was predicated on Melo's health, the Knicks were fighting for the 8th seed on pace for 38-40 wins when Melo's ankle injury hit.

""So if the Knicks are out of the playoff race by the deadline, the Rockets still have to give me a BIG return. Otherwise, I'll hold off based on an educated risk. I'd be counting on his knee improving and thus his play improving which would in turn increase his value. I'd also count on the teams who miss on FA's being more open to a deal for Melo than they would have been (and in that scenario they can eat his contract without us having to match contracts). So this is not to advocate hanging on to Melo at all costs at all. This is saying that I believe the best way to maximize his value is a more patient approach and that would also buy us more time (and information) to have clarity in our next roster moves."

He's 31, you're counting on him getting better or returning to form after a knee surgery?

I was right
Beginning of season to December 16: 21.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 3.5 APG 41% from the field, 35% from 3
December 18th on: 22 PPG, 8 RPG, 4.6 APG 45% from the field, 34% from 3

As far as the value of Boston's golden picks, they weren't giving them up. BK's pick wasn't a guaranteed top five pick in early December; the Knicks didn't have their own pick which meant rushing to tank had no value; and by the deadline when BK's pick was more clearly a top five my stance was the BK pick and an immediate contributor (again, to avoid tanking so badly that we drop below BK).

I'm cool with being wrong on the playoffs prediction; you were flat out wrong on how well Melo would play moving forward and what value Melo would garner at the deadline. Keep patting yourself on the back though breh

 

[Malta]

My prediction was predicated on Melo's health, the Knicks were fighting for the 8th seed on pace for 38-40 wins when Melo's ankle injury hit.

""So if the Knicks are out of the playoff race by the deadline, the Rockets still have to give me a BIG return. Otherwise, I'll hold off based on an educated risk. I'd be counting on his knee improving and thus his play improving which would in turn increase his value. I'd also count on the teams who miss on FA's being more open to a deal for Melo than they would have been (and in that scenario they can eat his contract without us having to match contracts). So this is not to advocate hanging on to Melo at all costs at all. This is saying that I believe the best way to maximize his value is a more patient approach and that would also buy us more time (and information) to have clarity in our next roster moves."


I was right
Beginning of season to December 16: 21.7 PPG, 7.5 RPG, 3.5 APG 41% from the field, 35% from 3
December 18th on: 22 PPG, 8 RPG, 4.6 APG 45% from the field, 34% from 3

As far as the value of Boston's golden picks, they weren't giving them up. BK's pick wasn't a guaranteed top five pick in early December; the Knicks didn't have their own pick which meant rushing to tank had no value; and by the deadline when BK's pick was more clearly a top five my stance was the BK pick and an immediate contributor (again, to avoid tanking so badly that we drop below BK).

I'm cool with being wrong on the playoffs prediction; you were flat out wrong on how well Melo would play moving forward and what value Melo would garner at the deadline.

No, I wasn't wrong because he's going to get worse as he ages which has always been my point

You were under the idea he was a superstar good enough to power you to the playoffs, he wasn't and the fact of the matter is the Knicks are one of the older teams in the East ontop of all this. Everyone knew the Nets picks would end up top 5, next years will be a top 5 pick as well

Also, whatever you think they can get for him, they'll have to contend with the Bulls who sound like they may move Butler, who is younger and on an even better contract and will have more suitors because he doesn't have a NTC.

Keep patting yourself on the back though breh

 

[Derek Lee]

 

[K-Deini]

only took the knicks 70+ games to give grant playing time

 

[BoogieDown23]

just started watching but why does covington have 30 and 11

 

[Derek Lee]

No thanks.

 

[storyteller]

No, I wasn't wrong because he's going to get worse as he ages which has always been my point

We got the quotes right there, I posted the numbers for you, you were wrong. You were trying to say that his value would drop because of his play, I argued that his play would improve. Are you really gonna try to spin that? Just take the L.

You were under the idea he was a superstar good enough to power you to the playoffs, he wasn't and the fact of the matter is the Knicks are one of the older teams in the East ontop of all this. Everyone knew the Nets picks would end up top 5, next years will be a top 5 pick as well

My idea was he could get us to 38-40 wins if he stayed healthy. He hurt his ankle when we were on pace to meet that. You were right about the East being stronger than I thought, I slept on some teams for sure and got the projection wrong. As far as the Nets pick, in December there are no sure things; plus the pick was never gonna be on the table (which I told people as the deadline approached).

Also, whatever you think they can get for him, they'll have to contend with the Bulls who sound like they may move Butler, who is younger and on an even better contract and will have more suitors because he doesn't have a NTC.

Doesn't change the fact that he'll garner more offers in the offseason. At the deadline the C's tried...and that's it. Following the deadline, this report dropped...

Several Teams Expected To Pursue Carmelo Anthony In Offseason - RealGM Wiretap

Several teams are expected to pursue Carmelo Anthony in the offseason.

Anthony will have control of the process as he has a no-trade clause with the New York Knicks.

Anthony would prefer to remain with the Knicks but that could change if they continue to be incapable of contending built around him.

The Knicks are 41-100 dating back to the start of the 14-15 season.

So again. I was right on Melo's play improving and our trade options improving if we waited for the offseason. I'll absolutely admit I blew my w/l projection and you were right on the East being better (Shout out to I.V. too on that note). You were wrong on Melo's play and on his trade value dropping as the season progressed.