Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[Miles Davis]

 

[Victim of Racism]

 

[Victim of Racism]

 

[Victim of Racism]

Clips aint going no where

Nothin' but the truth.

 

[storyteller]

I think that's part of it. His passing has always been good but he rarely had teammates to take advantage of it. Unless it's changed now he's actually not at his career high for single season APG (back when Karl ran pick and rolls through him, he ate teams). But I also think part of it is that Phil and KP brought more attention than the norm to NY basketball; and that means a bunch of national writers who only ever saw Melo play in match-ups with guys like Lebron and Durant (leading to scoring duels and tougher defenses) are now seeing him play more often and realizing just how much he can do. The other thing is he really is taking things up a notch. He's always been a great rebounder for SF and in seasons at PF, but now he's arguably the best rebounding SF in the league. He's notching big assist numbers whereas his passing led to a lot of missed FGA's and hockey assists in the past. His defense is just at a new level and his leadership is showing more, he was always the silent "show don't tell" type but he's more visibly leading these guys (Shump and THJ both gave him a ton of credit in the past but it didn't show on the court like it does with KP).

The final thing is low expectations. He was coming off knee surgery on a 17 win team with none of the biggest FA names coming to town. So everybody underestimated how good he could be and while he struggled to get his legs, people continued to sleep on the fact that he was rebounding, defending and passing at a high level (see the trade Melo arguments early in the season). Now that he's starting to get that FG% up more consistently, attack the basket with more confidence and score like he's always been able to; the other stuff has gotten even harder to ignore.

 

[seemorecizzy]

melo only plays seflish if his team is shyt

when he has a good pg who he can trust (kidd, billups) he always lets them run the offense

mike woodsons offense was just iso melo, kidd was running his own offensive when he was there down


thankfully, the triangle isnt big on point guard play, so they hes able to play efficiently within an system and not rely to much on pg play

imagine if we had a better pg tho

also melos smart enough to know that hes probably not the same player he was after the knee surgery so hes trying to adapt and pace his game

knicks have a lot of hard workers but at the end of the day, they are still one of the least talented teams in the league

for us to have the record we have so far, in the new and improved eastern conference, truly speaks volumes to the leader he is becoming

 

[Victim of Racism]

I think that's part of it. His passing has always been good but he rarely had teammates to take advantage of it. Unless it's changed now he's actually not at his career high for single season APG (back when Karl ran pick and rolls through him, he ate teams). But I also think part of it is that Phil and KP brought more attention than the norm to NY basketball; and that means a bunch of national writers who only ever saw Melo play in match-ups with guys like Lebron and Durant (leading to scoring duels and tougher defenses) are now seeing him play more often and realizing just how much he can do. The other thing is he really is taking things up a notch. He's always been a great rebounder for SF and in seasons at PF, but now he's arguably the best rebounding SF in the league. He's notching big assist numbers whereas his passing led to a lot of missed FGA's and hockey assists in the past. His defense is just at a new level and his leadership is showing more, he was always the silent "show don't tell" type but he's more visibly leading these guys (Shump and THJ both gave him a ton of credit in the past but it didn't show on the court like it does with KP).

The final thing is low expectations. He was coming off knee surgery on a 17 win team with none of the biggest FA names coming to town. So everybody underestimated how good he could be and while he struggled to get his legs, people continued to sleep on the fact that he was rebounding, defending and passing at a high level (see the trade Melo arguments early in the season). Now that he's starting to get that FG% up more consistently, attack the basket with more confidence and score like he's always been able to; the other stuff has gotten even harder to ignore.

3.8 apg isn't a big number. He did that in the '06-'07 season and that's where he is currently. His passes per minute that he has the ball hasn't changed either. His rebounding isn't impressive at his height either. It's at 7.7 rpg. His career high is 8.1 rpg, which he did 3 years ago. He's been encouraging guys, defending them, and respectfully calling them out on camera for years (off the top, I can think of when the did that to J.R. in that Bulls game at the Garden where 'Melo hit the game-winner to send the game into OT and then the 2nd game-winner to win it in OT).

His defense isn't at a new level and they're still not talking about it (Herring's back-handed article is the one exception). It was better when he was a 90th percentile post defender. Lj, who is just as strong as 'Melo, wouldn't even guard 4's because they're so big and strong. He would send Battier to guard West and 'Melo and he'd just guard them in the 4th after someone else had already worn them down. I can understand that because I remember the last game 'Melo played the Cavs and it looked so physically taxing when Lj was leaning on and hugging 'Melo (read: fouling) to deny him the ball.

I say all that to say 'Melo has been more than a scorer, a willing passer, and a willing defender for years and the media has been purposely lying on him and hasn't applied the same standards to him that they do to other players for years (Durant has been on a contender for years, 'Melo never has, and Durant gets so many passes for not winning and for rebounding like he's not a giant with a long wingspan and is not criticized for "only" averaging 3.6 apg for his career, he, Curry, and Lj get passes for trash defense, Dirk gets passes for not winning until he was 89 years old and only being a scorer who can neither defend, rebound, block shots, nor pass).

It boils down to the fact that they need an explanation for NY beating good teams lately. I'm also wondering if the league over-hyping KP because of his color (like they do Dirk) is having an influence on people changing their tune on 'Melo. Either way, just in the Detroit game, Clyde said 'Melo "only" averages 3 apg, Breen said all he does is score, isn't good enough to lead his team to a ch'ip, "only" went to the WCF once (as if the West wasn't brutal when he played in it), and is defending poorly. All this was said to downplay him passing some player in all-time scoring. But last night Breen was trying to compliment him.

 

[pimpineasy]

You forgot some names.
@The War Report @DirtyD @ogc163 @Liquid @SprinceC @pimpineasy
We still here. :mjplsk1:

Still here too dude , i just been a bit busy with this dynasty ish ...........................................

i agree melo is def playing better but the point i have always made is that his peak is at best another 2 years at best ...........we are a rebuilding team,

let me put it this way, if you have a superstar and you dont make the conference semi finals once then whats the point?

i feel that by the time we can get pieces around melo it will be past his peak

so my thing is to sell melo now

in finance you want to sell your asset high based on if you think the asset will appreciate.....................i think melo hass peaked and is downhill plus the fact we will not be ready in the next 3 year for a conference final tells me we need to trade


i know its not a popular thought and this is not hating on melo

 

[ikbm]

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

we drafting frail white boys..........................you dont win with frail white boys that arent dirk

these nikkas drafted....skinny bargnani
fukk the knicks...fukk this franchise dog

fam, going back through the nba draft thread....................i had some real shameful posts out of complete ignorance and frustration
god bless phil
i have to own up to it
he wasn't the future superstar we wanted...he was the future superstar we needed
giving hope to gotham

 

[storyteller]

3.8 apg isn't a big number. He did that in the '06-'07 season and that's where he is currently. His passes per minute that he has the ball hasn't changed either. His rebounding isn't impressive at his height either. It's at 7.7 rpg. His career high is 8.1 rpg, which he did 3 years ago. He's been encouraging guys, defending them, and respectfully calling them out on camera for years (off the top, I can think of when the did that to J.R. in that Bulls game at the Garden where 'Melo hit the game-winner to send the game into OT and then the 2nd game-winner to win it in OT).

These are views without context. Height is not the be-all end-all measure of rebounding, position plays a pivotal role. His 8.1 total at PF was good not great for a PF. Comparably he was second leaguewide rebounding as an SF heading into this recent run, I'm not taking the time to double check if he passed up to tops in the league but that's elite. The reason this changes how impressive the number is that PF's guard players closer to the basket and are thus closer to the rim, making it easier to get position and grab boards. It also stands to reason that they'll have less competition for boards than Melo who is competing with his own PF and C for rebounds...that's a lot of rebounders. So 8.1 at PF good, 7.7 at SF more impressive. His 3.8 apg isn't a big number, but narrow to small forwards and it's fourth best in the league. That puts him ahead of Joe Johnson and Andre Iguodala, both KNOWN for passing. It's .1 behind Paul George, another well known passer. Only KD and Lebron are significantly higher and KD still only leads by .6 (Bron is out of this world with 6). As far as encouraging and defending guys, like I said, it's more visible now by far. This comes down more to the TO breaks and situations where candid moments are captured; but they're capturing a lot more of Melo with KP under his wing than THJ (who visibly argued with Melo on the court last season). That's not to say he wasn't leading...just that the visual aids weren't there for those who had confirmation biases.

His defense isn't at a new level and they're still not talking about it (Herring's back-handed article is the one exception). It was better when he was a 90th percentile post defender. Lj, who is just as strong as 'Melo, wouldn't even guard 4's because they're so big and strong. He would send Battier to guard West and 'Melo and he'd just guard them in the 4th after someone else had already worn them down. I can understand that because I remember the last game 'Melo played the Cavs and it looked so physically taxing when Lj was leaning on and hugging 'Melo (read: fouling) to deny him the ball.

Post defender is key. It's why Melo at PF was so heavily talked about. Melo didn't have elite defensive numbers at wing and sunk to one of the bottom defenders of three point shooters last season in his return to wing defense (now, that's pretty obviously due to his knee killing lateral movement...but we're talking about national writers and analysts who only see guys a handful of times yearly. Melo had flashed this defensive prowess in match-ups with Lebron and some others in the past but sustaining it has always been in question. No stat backing this, but I've always said he defends well for 90% of games in the past. The other 10 would be times when he didn't get back after a no-call bc he argues with the ref and the other bc he would get overzealous and pick up a foolish foul or make over commit and get beat off dribble.

I say all that to say 'Melo has been more than a scorer, a willing passer, and a willing defender for years and the media has been purposely lying on him and hasn't applied the same standards to him that they do to other players for years (Durant has been on a contender for years, 'Melo never has, and Durant gets so many passes for not winning and for rebounding like he's not a giant with a long wingspan, he, Curry, and Lj get passes for trash defense, Dirk gets passes for not winning until he was 89 years old and only being a scorer who can neither defend, rebound, block shots, nor pass).

Media isn't lying, they lack exposure. The writers on the beat are the only guys watching a player on a nightly basis. So their narratives create mass confirmation bias, reputations paint the picture. Which is why I'm crediting visibility more than anything. Our beat writers thrive on drama, they sell a LOT of BS to generate clicks but on the bigger stage writers are only checking for major match-ups and analysts are covering their 2 TNT prime time games and that's it. There are nights with 10 games going on and these guys have no chance to see it all. So they'll look at 3 assists and say "well that's nothing great" without realizing that Toney Douglas and Landry Fields bricked 5 open looks Melo generated. Then the beat writers say Melo was frustrated and forcing shots...now there's a reputation that creates a self-fulfilling prophecy so when the Heat throw Battier, then Bron, then Haslem all at Melo in one night and Melo struggles with fatigue against doubles and quality physical defenders they say "you see...the beat writers said he's greedy and look at him forcing things. Also, Dirk didn't get a pass...Dirk and KG were the two guys I felt got dogged the most unfairly for similar scenarios to Melo. Dirk got his love after the chip but before that he was a playoff disappearing act according to the narratives. What exacerbates all of this is that Melo has always been linked to Bron who had better help, bigger numbers and an easier road to the finals for his entire career. A lot of "Melo isn't elite" talk boiled down to "Melo's not Lebron." He was better than Paul George but George was on a better team and Melo wasn't Lebron, so George was the superstar and Melo was the guy you can't win with. It's lame, but the perception had a lot of variables, none of which were fair to Melo.

It boils down to the fact that they need an explanation for NY beating good teams lately. I'm also wondering if the league over-hyping KP because of his color is having an influence on people changing their tune on 'Melo. Either way, just in the Detroit game, Clyde said 'Melo "only" averages 3 apg, Breen said all he does is score, isn't good enough to lead his team to a ch'ip, "only" went to the WCF once (as if the West wasn't brutal when he played in it), and is defending poorly. All this was said to downplay him passing some player in all-time scoring. But last night Breen was trying to compliment him.

Breen and Clyde are pretty bad with their criticisms. Clyde is entertaining, Breen irks me. If you want fair speak, when ESPN has JVG or Hubie calling the games, those guys are typically fair and they've always given Melo his due. Especially Hubie, that's my dude. Clyde and Breen have no good excuse, they just always followed the trending reports, which is what you're seeing now. The praise for Knicks players this season though is about exposure. That's why Lance Thomas is suddenly the flavor of the league and why AA is getting his due after good games. It's the reason KP "hit a rookie wall" after a few bad games (a rookie wall should be like a month of struggling) and why Melo went from "bad" at aspects of his game to "elite." All of those narratives translate to "I'm seeing these guys more often and wow...they're better than I thought." Whereas psychotic fans like ourselves will argue whether Melo's actually improved as a passer or whether his teammates being better just makes it more obvious (both stances are solid as a rock).

 

[mbewane]

Go NY go NY Go

 

[pimpineasy]

These are views without context. Height is not the be-all end-all measure of rebounding, position plays a pivotal role. His 8.1 total at PF was good not great for a PF. Comparably he was second leaguewide rebounding as an SF heading into this recent run, I'm not taking the time to double check if he passed up to tops in the league but that's elite. The reason this changes how impressive the number is that PF's guard players closer to the basket and are thus closer to the rim, making it easier to get position and grab boards. It also stands to reason that they'll have less competition for boards than Melo who is competing with his own PF and C for rebounds...that's a lot of rebounders. So 8.1 at PF good, 7.7 at SF more impressive. His 3.8 apg isn't a big number, but narrow to small forwards and it's fourth best in the league. That puts him ahead of Joe Johnson and Andre Iguodala, both KNOWN for passing. It's .1 behind Paul George, another well known passer. Only KD and Lebron are significantly higher and KD still only leads by .6 (Bron is out of this world with 6). As far as encouraging and defending guys, like I said, it's more visible now by far. This comes down more to the TO breaks and situations where candid moments are captured; but they're capturing a lot more of Melo with KP under his wing than THJ (who visibly argued with Melo on the court last season). That's not to say he wasn't leading...just that the visual aids weren't there for those who had confirmation biases.



Post defender is key. It's why Melo at PF was so heavily talked about. Melo didn't have elite defensive numbers at wing and sunk to one of the bottom defenders of three point shooters last season in his return to wing defense (now, that's pretty obviously due to his knee killing lateral movement...but we're talking about national writers and analysts who only see guys a handful of times yearly. Melo had flashed this defensive prowess in match-ups with Lebron and some others in the past but sustaining it has always been in question. No stat backing this, but I've always said he defends well for 90% of games in the past. The other 10 would be times when he didn't get back after a no-call bc he argues with the ref and the other bc he would get overzealous and pick up a foolish foul or make over commit and get beat off dribble.



Media isn't lying, they lack exposure. The writers on the beat are the only guys watching a player on a nightly basis. So their narratives create mass confirmation bias, reputations paint the picture. Which is why I'm crediting visibility more than anything. Our beat writers thrive on drama, they sell a LOT of BS to generate clicks but on the bigger stage writers are only checking for major match-ups and analysts are covering their 2 TNT prime time games and that's it. There are nights with 10 games going on and these guys have no chance to see it all. So they'll look at 3 assists and say "well that's nothing great" without realizing that Toney Douglas and Landry Fields bricked 5 open looks Melo generated. Then the beat writers say Melo was frustrated and forcing shots...now there's a reputation that creates a self-fulfilling prophecy so when the Heat throw Battier, then Bron, then Haslem all at Melo in one night and Melo struggles with fatigue against doubles and quality physical defenders they say "you see...the beat writers said he's greedy and look at him forcing things. Also, Dirk didn't get a pass...Dirk and KG were the two guys I felt got dogged the most unfairly for similar scenarios to Melo. Dirk got his love after the chip but before that he was a playoff disappearing act according to the narratives. What exacerbates all of this is that Melo has always been linked to Bron who had better help, bigger numbers and an easier road to the finals for his entire career. A lot of "Melo isn't elite" talk boiled down to "Melo's not Lebron." He was better than Paul George but George was on a better team and Melo wasn't Lebron, so George was the superstar and Melo was the guy you can't win with. It's lame, but the perception had a lot of variables, none of which were fair to Melo.



Breen and Clyde are pretty bad with their criticisms. Clyde is entertaining, Breen irks me. If you want fair speak, when ESPN has JVG or Hubie calling the games, those guys are typically fair and they've always given Melo his due. Especially Hubie, that's my dude. Clyde and Breen have no good excuse, they just always followed the trending reports, which is what you're seeing now. The praise for Knicks players this season though is about exposure. That's why Lance Thomas is suddenly the flavor of the league and why AA is getting his due after good games. It's the reason KP "hit a rookie wall" after a few bad games (a rookie wall should be like a month of struggling) and why Melo went from "bad" at aspects of his game to "elite." All of those narratives translate to "I'm seeing these guys more often and wow...they're better than I thought." Whereas psychotic fans like ourselves will argue whether Melo's actually improved as a passer or whether his teammates being better just makes it more obvious (both stances are solid as a rock).

i respect the way you laid out your reasoning here

 

[MR. Conclusion]

Melo getting his Legs and you can see he has the Triangle down and how to operate within it.

Robin been consistent on D all season, but on the offensive end he's been balling

Lance has to get most improved player, between his Versatility on D and the improvement on offense, I can't give him enough props.

I love the consistency of Kristap and how level headed he is. You never see him get too high or low. I honestly feel like him and Karl Towns are going to be better the Anthony Davis.

Derrick Williams inprovement on D is one off the biggest changes on the team that's going under the radar. He was horrible with the switching and rotations, you can tell the coaches really sat down with him in the film room and he took heed to it.

The Team as a whole is gelling on Offense. Outside of some stretches I've always liked how hard they played on defense.

I've been critical of D.Fish, I think we all have going back to last season, but you have to give him and the staff props. Between the rotation finally having consistency and the in-game adjustments I've seen him make, he's getting there!

We looking good! Although I like Calderon because he doesn't turn the ball over, A penetrating guard who can guard the position would be nice...langston is more of a combo guard and Jerian I'm still 50/50 on.

Your analysis is nearly exactly how I see it.

Of course this is the year that the entire eastern conference decides to step their game up.


However I do like our chances of making the playoffs.

Spoiler

And man this might be Melo's best year on the low.

 

[3Rivers]

@3Rivers

 

[Kitsch]