Put Some Hornacek On Our Game: 2016 New York Knicks Offseason Thread

[storyteller]

I've taken a step back from this site, specifically because of some of the homophobic and really hateful shyt I've seen posted on here over the last year.

You can catch me on twitter, I'll still be around this thread, certainly... and as always, down for some sort of knickfan meetup game/bar to watch a game.


But to be honest, there is a lot of this site - especially since the mods have pretty much taken the padlock off the gates - that I don't want to be associated with.

I hate to see intelligent posters leave when I want quality discussions. I moderate a separate forum and when cats take issue with the direction of poster behavior, I tend to ask them to try and pick out the posts that move in a direction they would prefer and quote those guys; spark the discussions you want to see and be the example. Not tryna preach here, just speaking from my experience moderating when we don't want to lose a poster, we ask them to stick around and help us turn the tide by being the example for others.

Nobody is happier than me with the way Melo has been playing of late, because this is the way we have always believed he could play. I can't tell you how awesome it is to watch him spread the ball around, direct traffic on offense, in order to get teammates in position to create other baskets, and to come to the defense of porzingis. Melo and I were the same high school class, I played with him at ABCD (back when that was a thing) -- I am loving every minute of this season.

And even still -- Even with all that said, I still understand that they probably should trade him, if they can secure quality picks and/or a young great player to surround Porzingis with. I'll understand if they don't. This is all coming together faster than anybody anticipated... and they're STILL only a fringe playoff hopeful. If he can stay this healthy, and play this way for the next four years... then obviously I am happy to keep him on the team. Even if he diminishes but his game and playing style age gracefully... I'm still happy... but you have to step back to 10-thousand feet and look at what's best for the franchise for the next decade.

I am hopeful (but maybe not optimistic) that his great play this season, and Kristaps coming-out as a star will help draw a bigtime free agent, or a bunch of really good ones (more optimistic for this).

The cap space and the raised cap are huge benefits, but he's making 28 million in 2018/2019.

I'm more and more slipping to a mindset that I don't want any of the max FA's in this class. Conley for instance is a guy I think fits our needs tremendously (finishes with both hands, great getting into the lane, athletic defender, good spot up shooter, doesn't need the ball...everything we need from a guard) but his max is something like 26 million starting NEXT SEASON. I'm not sure what Batum would make but with the cap rising, all of the maxes are just absurd. That's also why I'm a bit dismissive of the 28 million in 2018 argument. In 2018, 28 million likely won't look crazy at all comparatively speaking. If the projections hold (and a lot of times they've been too low recently), 108 million will be the cap in 2018. That means you have Melo and 80 million dollars for your roster which will include a rookie contract KP. Melo's not killing flexibility and being realistic about the cap means acknowledging the reality that players his caliber are likely to be more expensive, not less moving forward. You're trading away a fair value contract on the fear that he'll regress, but if he's even 75% as good as he's been, his contract is reasonable in the new economic climate and you have plenty of space to build around him.

Players are valuable at one price and not at another (I'm sure you know this but it bares repeating). My fear with the max guys this offseason is that outside of Durant, they'll all be more expensive than they're worth. This is a combination of too many teams have cap space to blow and the cap increases making contract values look ridiculous compared to what we've known (Love Demarre Carroll's game, hate his contract and that's just a preview of what will happen with better players and even more money to throw away from franchises). So I wonder if taking a similar approach to what Phil did this offseason might not be better...find guys like AA who are on down years, offer them short term contracts and bank on the fact that a down year tends to lead a guy to come back more motivated and hungry than ever. A lot of teams will be holding out hope on some max guys and maybe we can strike on slightly older players that the league is too quick to dismiss (looking at AA and Rajon Rondo from this offseason). The short term deals would leave us with the space and flexibility to target true max players in future offseasons, reward us with movable assets in case a full rebuild does become necessary. You get to keep Melo; you still add pieces to improve the team; but you wait to sacrifice flexibility until you hit a sure thing.

Edit: and this is my favorite kind of discussion here because you can make strong points in either direction and have a real solid debate with strong points.

 

[storyteller]

Sidenote about the Knicks being in playoff contention but a fringe team: The entire conference is a fringe playoff team with how much parity there is. With a win we'll have a 20 win .500 squad. The first team with home court advantage has 23 wins and we just beat them from start to finish TWICE. The third seed has 22 wins right now. We're coming up on a lot of home games and there are plenty of soft spots in the schedule (we've played the 10 toughest schedule so far I believe and we've held strong). We're literally one big run away from talking about home court advantage to start the post season instead of debating whether we'll make it. We need to stay healthy though, that's always key.

 

[ThaBronxBully]

You gotta eat her ass now

:philjacksonlol:




:kpnonikkas: @KologeroBx gotta EAT the booty like groceries.

I Didn't Say They Were Playoff Tickets

 

[#SOG_soldier]

I Didn't Say They Were Playoff Tickets

 

[DPresidential]

I've taken a step back from this site, specifically because of some of the homophobic and really hateful shyt I've seen posted on here over the last year.

But to be honest, there is a lot of this site - especially since the mods have pretty much taken the padlock off the gates - that I don't want to be associated with.

I will admit, I've noticed your missing presence and although I've had my issues with you being condescending to some posters, that's the nature of forums and as a KnickFam I love you anyway. So good to here you're okay.

I also feel some type of way about the way the envelope is pushed online because of anonymity of many posters. Homophobic, sexist, bigoted rhetoric makes you really think about many of the people who you think you know, in real life, truly feel about things.

Hate requires so much energy, it's weird how effortless people seem to make it.

Nobody is happier than me with the way Melo has been playing of late, because this is the way we have always believed he could play. I can't tell you how awesome it is to watch him spread the ball around, direct traffic on offense, in order to get teammates in position to create other baskets, and to come to the defense of porzingis. Melo and I were the same high school class, I played with him at ABCD (back when that was a thing) -- I am loving every minute of this season.

And even still -- Even with all that said, I still understand that they probably should trade him, if they can secure quality picks and/or a young great player to surround Porzingis with. I'll understand if they don't. This is all coming together faster than anybody anticipated... and they're STILL only a fringe playoff hopeful. If he can stay this healthy, and play this way for the next four years... then obviously I am happy to keep him on the team. Even if he diminishes but his game and playing style age gracefully... I'm still happy... but you have to step back to 10-thousand feet and look at what's best for the franchise for the next decade.

I am hopeful (but maybe not optimistic) that his great play this season, and Kristaps coming-out as a star will help draw a bigtime free agent, or a bunch of really good ones (more optimistic for this).

The cap space and the raised cap are huge benefits, but he's making 28 million in 2018/2019.

I feel you on Melo's play lately. However, I'm still iffy about the positive of trading Melo considering the teams would be able to make that happen would be hard pressed to find pieces that would make it worthwhile.

I'm looking at Melo and his smart play seems to be something that's goignt o help him handle the test of time and age. I'm confident that he can play this way for the remainder of his contract.
*That 28Mill in 2018/2019 is frightening though. Ha



Also, we all do need to do a NY game watch meetup in the City. I'm down for that as soon as the logistics are worked out.

All the best IV

 

[Typical Knicks Fan]

Google

Use that link to get our guys to Toronto.

To participate in the 2016 NBA All-Star voting via Google Search, voters must visit google.com and enter in the official Search term, NBAVote, or an official NBA team Search term, and select the players they want to see play in the 2016 NBA All-Star Game from the resulting voting card.

 

[I.V.]

I hate to see intelligent posters leave when I want quality discussions. I moderate a separate forum and when cats take issue with the direction of poster behavior, I tend to ask them to try and pick out the posts that move in a direction they would prefer and quote those guys; spark the discussions you want to see and be the example. Not tryna preach here, just speaking from my experience moderating when we don't want to lose a poster, we ask them to stick around and help us turn the tide by being the example for others.

I'll address this first, since I appreciate the concern. I don't care about the 'future' of this board, like at all. I'm not invested in it, so I don't have an interest in trying to mold the minds of ignorant internet trolls.

I have enjoyed this site in all of its incarnations, and have been here for way longer than I care to remember... but a lot of truly ugly trash that gets posted on here, and were it linked to me even mildly, would be a bad look.

Plus, I just find myself liking this site less and less... aside from the smart/funny sports talk. Which used to be easier to find.

That's also why I'm a bit dismissive of the 28 million in 2018 argument. In 2018, 28 million likely won't look crazy at all comparatively speaking. If the projections hold (and a lot of times they've been too low recently), 108 million will be the cap in 2018. That means you have Melo and 80 million dollars for your roster which will include a rookie contract KP. Melo's not killing flexibility and being realistic about the cap means acknowledging the reality that players his caliber are likely to be more expensive, not less moving forward. You're trading away a fair value contract on the fear that he'll regress, but if he's even 75% as good as he's been, his contract is reasonable in the new economic climate and you have plenty of space to build around him.

I deleted a lot of your post, but not for lack of thought or analysis, just for ease of reading and function here.

I think we just disagree on the fundamental issue of value-trend going forward, specifically on the bolded point. Melo is arguably playing the best team-oriented basketball of his career. But even WITH that... his shooting - both from distance and at the rim - at trending in the wrong direction. Now that's not really a surprise, this is how careers move. Peaks and Plateaus can come at different times... but the arc is generally the same. 28 Million dollars for a 35 year old player is not going to be good value, no matter the cap.

It's can't be. Compare what kobe is making right now to player making similar checks. That is the most analogous situation in the NBA's current landscape. You are HOPING that Melo will continue to play this well and remain healthy, but history and statistics say that is a very low probability.

I don't mean to have any of this be mistaken for me being a Melo hater, I love rooting for him. I think he's a great player, whose skillset is historically very hard to build around. He is having a GREAT stretch right now, playing team ball... I have seen him have stretches like this before, and always hoped they would become his playing style. If he's inspired to do that now, that's amazing. KP could learn a lot from him, and they could both really be helped by each other on the court.

Sidenote about the Knicks being in playoff contention but a fringe team: The entire conference is a fringe playoff team with how much parity there is. With a win we'll have a 20 win .500 squad. The first team with home court advantage has 23 wins and we just beat them from start to finish TWICE. The third seed has 22 wins right now. We're coming up on a lot of home games and there are plenty of soft spots in the schedule (we've played the 10 toughest schedule so far I believe and we've held strong). We're literally one big run away from talking about home court advantage to start the post season instead of debating whether we'll make it. We need to stay healthy though, that's always key.

This post, however... I have real concerns with. You are sounding DANGEROUSLY like a hawks fan right now, mistaking weak competition for our own talent. We do not have a good team. We do not have a very talented team. We have a team that is playing well right now, but they lack guard depth, and the player that is arguably most important to the team's success looks REALLY tired.

This is the kind of post that gets a fan laughed at, when you stop seeing what is there, and start hoping...

there is no real different between being the 6th team in the east and the 10th team in the East... in that none of them have a shot at a title.

I'd love to see the Knicks in the playoffs, I hope they make it. But this team is not a contender, and they are not getting a playoff home game. Be reasonable. The Knicks aren't even .500... they're not gonna rip off 8 wins in a row.

I feel you on Melo's play lately. However, I'm still iffy about the positive of trading Melo considering the teams would be able to make that happen would be hard pressed to find pieces that would make it worthwhile.

I'm looking at Melo and his smart play seems to be something that's goignt o help him handle the test of time and age. I'm confident that he can play this way for the remainder of his contract.
*That 28Mill in 2018/2019 is frightening though. Ha

Thanks for the nice thoughts.

And of course, if no team can put together pieces that would make a trade worthwhile, then we should not do it. But you have to be thinking about building this team over the nest 6 years, while KP is essentially Rookie-Scaled.

I think that hoping a player can play the same way at 30 as he does at 35 is a little.... optimistic?

But I hope he can too. I just also think we should be thinking about the fact that it isn't a likelihood.

Anyway, go knicks. It's been an awesome season... hit me on twitter.

 

[Miles Davis]

Going to the game tomorrow

Gonna see Latvian P and Melo give Brooklyn that work

 

[Mr. Jack Napier]

Interesting piece of info to know

 

[Knicksman20]

Interesting piece of info to know

The last thing we need is an undersized SG who doesn't play defense.

 

[Knicksman20]

After winning their first meeting with New York this season, the Boston Celtics were streaking and challenging Toronto for first place in the division.

Just over two weeks later and it's the Knicks who are making noise in the Atlantic.

New York tries to win for the sixth time in eight games since losing to the Celtics when the teams meet at Madison Square Garden on Tuesday night.

Boston's 100-91 home win over the Knicks on Dec. 27 was its fourth straight and left it one game back of the Raptors. The Knicks were handed their third four-game skid of the season and fell 4 1/2 behind the Celtics.

Few likely anticipated the 180-degree turnaround for both clubs since that night, particularly in light of what Carmelo Anthony said after his team shot 37.1 percent and missed 15 of 19 from 3-point range.

"It's more stress than anything because you're praying (for shots) to go in, you're hoping for them to go in," said Anthony, who scored 29 points with 10 rebounds. "It's not confident when you're shooting the ball."

New York (19-20) appears to be feeling it now, and ending a four-game series skid against Boston (19-18) will draw them even for second place in the Atlantic. The Celtics have dropped five of six since beating the Knicks.

The Knicks have had one bad game in their last seven, losing 108-81 at Chicago on New Year's Day, and their other loss in that span may have done more to build their confidence than squash it. They nearly handed San Antonio its first home defeat Friday, but Jose Calderon's 3-pointer bounced off the rim at the buzzer in a 100-99 loss.

New York returned home to begin a stretch of six of seven in the Big Apple - one of its two road games is in Brooklyn - with a 100-88 win over Milwaukee on Sunday. Anthony had 24 points, 10 rebounds and eight assists, while Kristaps Porzingis scored 15 and sparked a big third quarter with a putback dunk and one of his five blocks.

The Knicks, allowing 95.2 points per game in their last five, led by 22 entering the fourth and won despite missing 17 from beyond the arc.

"Every spectacular play we have, we just gain energy from that on the defensive end and we're able to play better, more together as a team on the defensive end, just because we have that energy from that highlight or whatever happened," Porzingis said.

The rookie will look for a better performance in this matchup after going 4 for 13 in Boston, though he did finish with 16 points and 12 boards.

Isaiah Thomas was the key for the Celtics in that game with 21 points, and he nearly willed his team to victory in Memphis on Sunday.

Thomas scored 35 points, but his 3-pointer was ruled to have left his hand after the horn in a 101-98 loss. He hit two free throws with 5.1 seconds left and then stole the ball after the ensuing inbounds pass.

The Celtics have been limited to 94.7 points per game in their last three and been outscored by at least 11 in the fourth quarter in two of those contests.

"We know that we gave this one away," guard Avery Bradley told the team's official website after the Grizzlies outscored them 33-22 in the fourth. "We can't keep letting games slip away from us, but we need to stay positive and focus on the next game."


SNY | NBA Game Preview - Celtics v Knicks

 

[storyteller]

I deleted a lot of your post, but not for lack of thought or analysis, just for ease of reading and function here.

I think we just disagree on the fundamental issue of value-trend going forward, specifically on the bolded point. Melo is arguably playing the best team-oriented basketball of his career. But even WITH that... his shooting - both from distance and at the rim - at trending in the wrong direction. Now that's not really a surprise, this is how careers move. Peaks and Plateaus can come at different times... but the arc is generally the same. 28 Million dollars for a 35 year old player is not going to be good value, no matter the cap.

It's can't be. Compare what kobe is making right now to player making similar checks. That is the most analogous situation in the NBA's current landscape. You are HOPING that Melo will continue to play this well and remain healthy, but history and statistics say that is a very low probability.

I don't mean to have any of this be mistaken for me being a Melo hater, I love rooting for him. I think he's a great player, whose skillset is historically very hard to build around. He is having a GREAT stretch right now, playing team ball... I have seen him have stretches like this before, and always hoped they would become his playing style. If he's inspired to do that now, that's amazing. KP could learn a lot from him, and they could both really be helped by each other on the court.

Skipping the first stretch, because it is what it is there and I respect the stance. I don't see you as a Melo hater for being skeptical of where Melo goes from here. But I would caution a rush to judgement about his shooting numbers because it was evident for a large chunk of this season that his surgically repaired knee was not fully recovered. Taking the season into 10 game chunks his FG% goes 40, 42, 46, 47%. So while his season average is low, he's trending up and looks like he could easily reach career averages and has actually shot a FG% above any season in NY since the 20th game of the season. That's a significant and sustained production. That isn't to say he won't regress, but the claim that his production is trending in the wrong direction would be one I disagree with and at a minimum suggest you hold judgement on until we get a larger sample size to work from.

As far as saying 28 million dollars is not a good value and can't be; this is really just an opinion based comment. I base contract value on not only production for the team but also percentage of cap required. Kobe's 28 million dollars against a 70 million dollar cap has a larger impact than Melo's 28 million against a 108 million dollar projected cap (and I repeat, the trend is that projections have been too low even before the tv deal). That's what I'm speaking about in terms of value. Melo giving a team 20, 6 and 3 on 45% from the field is not a bad value when his contract leaves the necessary room to add multiple large contracts and if you consider guys like Derozan are looking at 25 million dollar per year offers, it's even more debatable that Melo's contract won't have value. Also you're mistaken on his age, he'll be 33 turning 34 in the last season of his deal unless I'm mistaken which does make some difference compared to 35 turning 36.

Edit: Here's a sign of the types of players commanding 25 million a season with larger incremental raises
Lakers To Offer DeMar DeRozan Max Contract - RealGM Wiretap
The new normal is gonna be nuts.

This post, however... I have real concerns with. You are sounding DANGEROUSLY like a hawks fan right now, mistaking weak competition for our own talent. We do not have a good team. We do not have a very talented team. We have a team that is playing well right now, but they lack guard depth, and the player that is arguably most important to the team's success looks REALLY tired.

This is the kind of post that gets a fan laughed at, when you stop seeing what is there, and start hoping...

there is no real different between being the 6th team in the east and the 10th team in the East... in that none of them have a shot at a title.

I'd love to see the Knicks in the playoffs, I hope they make it. But this team is not a contender, and they are not getting a playoff home game. Be reasonable. The Knicks aren't even .500... they're not gonna rip off 8 wins in a row.

On the contrary, you've misread my point. If we're talking legitimate contenders in this league there are three; GS, San Antonio and Cleveland...but I'm speaking on the idea that the Knicks are a "fringe playoff" team as a way to prop up trading Melo. Re-read my post, I don't say a word about contenders in fact I'm saying close to the opposite. "The entire conference is a fringe playoff team with how much parity there is" and "We're literally one big run away from talking about home court advantage to start the post season" are the two comments I want to key on. Dropping Cleveland from the equation, every team in the East is a bad losing streak away from losing their playoff spot and every team is a nice winning streak away from fighting for home court advantage in the first round. There's no fill-in-the-blanks beliefs there. First quote means that there's not much gap between the top teams in the East (besides Cleveland) and the "fringe" teams. Second comment is just a fact, if we run off 5 or 6, we could quickly be fighting for the 4th seed rather than the 8th seed.

So when you say that the 6th team and the 10th team don't have much difference, I think you're being too conservative. There's not much difference from 3-10 and the Raptors aren't a scary playoff team either, so you could extrapolate that 2-10 in the East are all weak enough for a team to get hot and make a run up the rankings. I repeat, none of this has to do with the Knicks contending, it just means that during this soft stretch of schedule they could easily play themselves into a comfortable playoff position where the idea that "they're playing this well and still fighting to get in" could evaporate. That's a pure hypothetical, but it's not unrealistic. Not with the home court, weak schedule and improved play/coaching.

 

[storyteller]

The last thing we need is an undersized SG who doesn't play defense.

That's pretty much how I feel, but we have an extra roster spot and it'd only be a 10 day contract (2 of 'em really) to take a look and give him his chance to show he's gotten better. I chalk it up in the "can't hurt, probably won't help" column. I'd throw a 10 day at him or Wroten just to see and hopefully a by-product would be added motivation for Grant and Galloway who would now have somebody trying to take their minutes.

 

[Knicksman20]

That's pretty much how I feel, but we have an extra roster spot and it'd only be a 10 day contract (2 of 'em really) to take a look and give him his chance to show he's gotten better. I chalk it up in the "can't hurt, probably won't help" column. I'd throw a 10 day at him or Wroten just to see and hopefully a by-product would be added motivation for Grant and Galloway who would now have somebody trying to take their minutes.

I'd rather have Wroten. He's a bigger guard & has a better upside. And he can get to the basket which is what we need

 

[hoodheronova]

3-4 more years until were in the ECFs. It feels good to be right