Poll: is Texas the south?

Is Texas the south

  • Yes

    Votes: 274 85.1%
  • No

    Votes: 48 14.9%

  • Total voters
    322

Biscayne

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Many of the asthetics associate with today's cowboys come from the Mexican vaquero tradition, but the actual lifestyle of black cowboys in texas is by and large derived from cattle cultures of the old south and florida.

Floridians, Americans first cowboys.
Riding Off Into the (Florida) Sunset: America's First Cowboys

Black cowboys of Florida.
NPR Choice page

Not enough attention is given to the Florida cowboy culture is which too is a descendant of spanish vaquero and anglophone cattle ranching traditions(which of course people of african descent played a part in both). Texas was not unique in this aspect. And we know when it comes to black cowboys that there is a direct link between FL & TX via the black seminoles. The article also states that there are other links between FL and TX black cowboys as well.

This book talks about the Carolina influence on Texas cowboys and cattle ranching tradition. Like I said I'm really interested in reading about the influence of old south and florida cattle ranching traditions on the Texas cowboy culture. Because, a lot of Mexicans try to act like it %100 comes from mexican vaqueros. I'm starting to think the mex vaqueros had a smaller influence than I previously thought actually.

The legendary TX cowboy bill picket himself had SC roots on both sides of his family.
https://www.thecoli.com/goto/post?id=32582390#post-32582390
(credit to @IllmaticDelta)

This book claims that it was Louisiana, not Mexican Texas that Americans first came into contact with the Spanish vaquero tradition.
69587971_2891420000873325_6583179851010670592_n.jpg

Regardless if it was Florida or Louisiana, Americans weren't first exposed to the vaquero tradition when they came into Mexican Texas, nor were they absent of their own cattle driving tradition.

In fact we know that even in colonial British North America, African slaves were often chosen for their skills in cattle driving. Ben Solomon, a fulani slave, in America like many other fulanis brought to america was put to work to in cattle driving because of the skills he picked up in his culture's pastoral tradition in West Africa.
Ayuba Suleiman Diallo - Wikipedia

So, I don't see how Mexicans can make the claim that Texas cowboys are simply derived from the mexican vaquero tradition fully, let alone black texas cowboys, who if anything are rooted in culture(s) of Florida and the Old South primarily. In fact it was Mexicans who hired and trusted black seminole cowboys from Florida, known as Mascogos in Mexico, to guard their frontier against white anglo expansionist and hostile indians. Again, see the Callahan Expedition.
https://www.thecoli.com/posts/33873575/

Black cowboys tended make their cattle drives along north-south corridors as was the tradition of the old south cattle drives, not east-west as in the case of the Mexican vaquero.

Stuff like ten gallon hats and cowboy boots, which weren't even worn by black cowboys in the cowboy era, does come from the Mexican vaquero tradition.
This is very interesting. Black Florida is very interesting historically. I had a thread on it. Not necessarily on the Black Cowboys, but just on Black Florida history. But either way, you're right. Florida was considered the frontier. Florida has had many traditions that are similar to that of the western style of cattle ranching. Not only that, but florida(like the sparsely populated west) was a considered a place where many outlaws, runaway slaves, etc could flee too. Until it was fully incorporated into the ante bellum economy and became a full fledged Southern state.

You make interesting points about the black cowboys and how ranch herding in Africa was a main source of tradition and skill seen in the black slaves.

But the 10 gallon hats, lassos, rodeos, boots and pageantry associated with being a "Cowboy" was all part of the romanticization process of Southern European and Latin Traditions after the Civil War. This was all part of a campaign kinda "Westernize" Texas. But more and more you're exposing me to the true origins of some of these traditions.

:ohhh:

There seems to be an urban/rural divide down south. Many native Southerners themselves seem to associate these traditions with Texas and associate Texas with the Western US. The romanticization of Spain, Mexico and Westward expansion might have to do with this. Think about shows like Zorro and all those old westerns. And then look at states like Florida and look at the Spanish Revival architecture that home developers went crazy with in the 30's, 40's and 50's. There were so many "themed" neighborhoods with names like Villa Viscaya and stuff like that. Concrete siding, Terra cotta roofing. That's all part of the romanticization of Iberian traditions. You see it alot in Florida, South/West Texas, The Southwestern US, and CA. To be fair, Mexican culture has definitely be the biggest influence on the architecture and culture of those regions. But also developers and those selling land used that romanticization to attract buyers and transplants.

:ohhh: :patrice:

Either way, Spanish revival and Mediterranean architecture is my fave.
 

Cave Savage

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I went to Texas for the first time.

I'm in Austin (which is probably the edge of what people consider the South), and despite all the transplants (even higher ratio than NYC), it feels like the South to me. The natives here seem to have discernibly Southern accents + Southern hospitality.

Plus it's muggy and the flora looks Southern to me (lots of trees instead of just dirt and cacti like the Southwest would have).

Side note, that BBQ is on point. And it's a small world, the second uber driver I had is from one town away from me.
 

987654321

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Metro Houston, port Arthur, etc have a very southern culture. I used to live around metro Houston, east NO, Metro Atlanta, the Nashville metro. The southern parts of their cultures are real similar. Dallas, Austin, SA, El-Paso all seemed more like the Southwest (AZ, NM, etc.). They shared a little of the things a saw when I stayed in California.
 

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Metro Houston, port Arthur, etc have a very southern culture. I used to live around metro Houston, east NO, Metro Atlanta, the Nashville metro. The southern parts of their cultures are real similar. Dallas, Austin, SA, El-Paso all seemed more like the Southwest (AZ, NM, etc.). They shared a little of the things a saw when I stayed in California.

Historically Austin is definitely the south.

Dallas ain't the deep south by any means, it's has more western South and Inland upper south characteristics, but it's definitely southern in it's own way.

Though keep in mind Dallas and Austin have gone through HEAVY gentrification and socio-political identity redefining going all the way back to the reconstruction era, unlike Houston, as @Meh mentioned, so today's version of those cities aren't necessarily like they were in the past.

You make interesting points about the black cowboys and how ranch herding in Africa was a main source of tradition and skill seen in the black slaves.

But the 10 gallon hats, lassos, rodeos, boots and pageantry associated with being a "Cowboy" was all part of the romanticization process of Southern European and Latin Traditions after the Civil War. This was all part of a campaign kinda "Westernize" Texas. But more and more you're exposing me to the true origins of some of these traditions.

:ohhh:

I actually want to come back to this after I read up on the subject more, cuz you brought up a very interesting point I didn't consider about the post civil war latin romantization led to the a lot of the aesthetics of modern cowboy culture, especially at the turn of the 20th century when the cattle driving industry began to die.
 
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I went to Texas for the first time.

I'm in Austin (which is probably the edge of what people consider the South), and despite all the transplants (even higher ratio than NYC), it feels like the South to me. The natives here seem to have discernibly Southern accents + Southern hospitality.

Plus it's muggy and the flora looks Southern to me (lots of trees instead of just dirt and cacti like the Southwest would have).

Side note, that BBQ is on point. And it's a small world, the second uber driver I had is from one town away from me.

What was your impression of the native aados austonians?
 

Biscayne

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I went to Texas for the first time.

I'm in Austin (which is probably the edge of what people consider the South), and despite all the transplants (even higher ratio than NYC), it feels like the South to me. The natives here seem to have discernibly Southern accents + Southern hospitality.

Plus it's muggy and the flora looks Southern to me (lots of trees instead of just dirt and cacti like the Southwest would have).

Side note, that BBQ is on point. And it's a small world, the second uber driver I had is from one town away from me.
Austin's flora and the general weather is so susceptible to changed depending on the szn. I live in the Southeastern US currently(NC) and when I went back to Austin this past September, it seemed very brown. Not dry like Phoenix/The Southwest, but browner and drier than anything in the southeast, east coast or even East Texas. More cacti and agave than I was used to also, living in NC .
 

Cave Savage

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What was your impression of the native aados austonians?

This city does not seem to have a high black population, but the ones I've heard sound Southern to me.

The two black people I who I actually had conversations with so far are transplants, one of them grew up one town away from me. And even that dude could pass as Southern, he's been in Texas for like 8 years.
 

Cave Savage

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Austin's flora and the general weather is so susceptible to changed depending on the szn. I live in the Southeastern US currently(NC) and when I went back to Austin this past September, it seemed very brown. Not dry like Phoenix/The Southwest, but browner and drier than anything in the southeast, east coast or even East Texas. More cacti and agave than I was used to also, living in NC .

I haven't seen any cacti or agave yet, but I've been on the East side of the city.

I suspect that Austin is like a crossroads for flora (Southwest versus Southern).
 
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987654321

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Historically Austin is definitely the south.

Dallas ain't the deep south by any means, it's has more western South and Inland upper south characteristics, but it's definitely southern in it's own way.

Though keep in mind Dallas and Austin have gone through HEAVY gentrification and socio-political identity redefining going all the way back to the reconstruction era, unlike Houston, as @Meh mentioned, so today's version of those cities aren't necessarily like they were in the past.



I actually want to come back to this after I read up on the subject more, cuz you brought up a very interesting point I didn't consider about the post civil war latin romantization led to the a lot of the aesthetics of modern cowboy culture, especially at the turn of the 20th century when the cattle driving industry began to die.

thats very true about the gentrification. I didn’t get to visit Austin and Dallas until the early 2010’s
 

Biscayne

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I haven't seen any cacti or agave yet, but I've been on the East side of the city.

I suspect that Austin is like a crossroads for flora (Southwest versus Southern).
They don't have the big Seguro cacti like out in AZ, but out in the hill country and other brushy areas of Austin, you'll see the small cacti and mesquite trees. The Eastern half of the metro(headed towards Manor, Pflugerville and Elgin) is more green and pastured than the city of Austin and the western and southern sides of the metro it seemed.

Also another thing that made Austin/Central Texas seem so distinct from the The South/Southeast was how wide open it was. The lack of tall pine tree coverage made the landscape feel more wide open and "frontiersy" to me.

:hubie:

Austin was a mix of South/Southwest, but they really went all in with the planting of palm trees and using the Mexican fan palm(those desert palms) as part of the aesthetic. It felt like Austin made a "decision" so to speak, on which direction the metro is trying to go in. And it felt like they chose "General West" over "General South".
 

Cave Savage

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They don't have the big Seguro cacti like out in AZ, but out in the hill country and other brushy areas of Austin, you'll see the small cacti and mesquite trees. The Eastern half of the metro(headed towards Manor, Pflugerville and Elgin) is more green and pastured than the city of Austin and the western and southern sides of the metro it seemed.

Also another thing that made Austin/Central Texas seem so distinct from the The South/Southeast was how wide open it was. The lack of tall pine tree coverage made the landscape feel more wide open and "frontiersy" to me.

:hubie:

Austin was a mix of South/Southwest, but they really went all in with the planting of palm trees and using the Mexican fan palm(those desert palms) as part of the aesthetic. It felt like Austin made a "decision" so to speak, on which direction the metro is trying to go in. And it felt like they chose "General West" over "General South".

I actually did see some small cacti before, but it looks like people planted them there.

And I agree that it does feel open, though still not barren like I imagine the Southwest as being. I think "Western South" is a good description.

But I have heard natives from here with full blown Southern accents.
 
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