Pippen on Magic...

[Taadow]

I hear your arguments. And to be honest those two Pistons championship teams are those closest arguments against my statement. But allow me to to explain why Bill Laimbeer was above average, while Horace Grant was average at best.

Laimbeer was a 4 time all-star (1983-1987) vs Horace Grants 1 appearance (1994). Looking up Laimbeer's stats during those all-star years he averaged 16.7 points and 12.3 rebounds over those 4 years. Horace Grant's career highs in 1994 were 15 & 11. Good numbers? Yes. But Laimbeer averages over 4 years were better than Horace Grant's BEST season (1994). Think about that: Horace Grant's career high numbers couldn't even touch Bill Laimbeer's average for a number of seasons. In fact Laimbeer put up double-doubles (pts/rebs) every single year from '81-'82 to '87-'88. A feat Horace Grant only did 2x in a 16 year career.

Laimbeer was in the top 10 in the NBA in total rebounds/rebounds per game for 7 straight seasons (82 - 89). That was WITH rebounding demon Dennis Rodman on the team. Horace Grant was never top 10 NBA in ANY category during his career. Laimbeer was a member of the NBA elite in the rebounding department for a number of years. No one could ever say Horace Grant ever dominated at anything over any part of his career.

Not only could Laimbeer rebound like hell, he could shoot the ball very well... especially from 3. He was the first legit big man who could shoot the long ball. He broke the (then) NBA finals record for 3's made in a game with 6 in 1990. He was able to bring centers out of the paint because of the threat of the long range shot. He was incorporated into the offense as a staple of the pick and roll for those Championship teams. This enabled Thomas, Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson being able to get into the paint and finish without the threat of shot blocking. Bill Laimbeer has more total points and rebounds than Horace Grant despite playing 3 fewer NBA seasons.

To sum it up, in my opinion of course, Bill Lambier was the prototype for a guy like Kevin Love: A big man who could shoot from anywhere on the court and was among the best rebounders in the league, if not the best. Add to that a defensive mean streak, sprinkle in some dirty play here and there, and you have an above average big man.

I don't think the Pistons win without Laimbeer anchoring the middle defensively and being a long range offensive threat. I can't say the same, confidently, about the early 90's Bulls winning without Horace Grant.

Bro...Horace Grant was an above average post player, don't be fooled by the stats. His individual stat lines don't say:

- he was sharing the floor with two TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS who were getting their points, rebs, etc.

- he was sharing the post with a rotation of bigger teammates who were average, and he was still getting better results than them.

Every team wishes they had a PF like Horace Grant.

 

[Broke Wave]

Pippen is one of the best defenders ever. That is one of main reasons the bulls won titles. Pippen without jordan = multiple playoff losses. Jordan without pippen or a developed pippen = multiple playoff losses.

Everybody needs help. That doesnt discredit anyones' merits.

On behalf of Kobe stans across this globe I thank you.

 

[eifmp]

Bro...Horace Grant was an above average post player, don't be fooled by the stats. His individual stat lines don't say:

- he was sharing the floor with two TOP 50 NBA PLAYERS who were getting their points, rebs, etc.

- he was sharing the post with a rotation of bigger teammates who were average, and he was still getting better results than them.

Every team wishes they had a PF like Horace Grant.

Horace Grant's best season statistically was 15 & 11. That was when MJ was trying to hit baseballs (1994). So when playing with only one top 50 of all time he got 15 and 11. Not bad. But could he have done that over 4 years? Doubt it.

You mention Horace grant played with 2 of the NBA top 50 of all time. My counter to that is Laimbeer played with 3 future HOF'ers, all of whom were in their prime. Still put up better numbers than Horace Grant. Stats don't say that either.

'Every team wishes they had a PF like Horace Grant', huh? Tell me You didn't happen to be a Bulls fan did you?

 

[Taadow]

Horace Grant's best season statistically was 15 & 11. That was when MJ was trying to hit baseballs (1994). So when playing with only one top 50 of all time he got 15 and 11. Not bad. But could he have done that over 4 years? Doubt it.

You mention Horace grant played with 2 of the NBA top 50 of all time. My counter to that is Laimbeer played with 3 future HOF'ers, all of whom were in their prime. Still put up better numbers than Horace Grant. Stats don't say that either.

'Every team wishes they had a PF like Horace Grant', huh? Tell me You didn't happen to be a Bulls fan did you?

1) As you said, Horace's best statistical season was when Mike was gone, so he had more opportunities to contribute. Could he have done that over 4 years? Why couldn't he? But the situation changed after that...

2) Laimbeer was the olive in the Pistons' martini by the time they started winning championships. Horace meant more to the Bulls than Laimbeer meant to the Pistons champ teams.

3) No, I ABSOLUTELY was NOT a Bulls fan. I wanted Horace away from them and on my team.

 

[holidayinn21]

mike had no answer for magic.

had him in constant trouble.

pippen allowed to him focus on offense.

anyone who says otherwise is a fool.

 

[Newzz]

at an above average big man only averaging a "double-double" twice in his entire 17 year career

Bill Laimbeer > Horace Grant

 

[Newzz]

2) Laimbeer was the olive in the Pistons' martini by the time they started winning championships. Horace meant more to the Bulls than Laimbeer meant to the Pistons champ teams.

This is a true statement.

Bill Laimbeer was NOT as good as Horace Grant in the 89 and 90 Pistons' championship runs as Horace was in the 91/92/93 championship runs for the Bulls

 

[Creeper]

Yea I think so. Jordan is the ONLY player in NBA history who won titles without a legit, above average, big man in the post. A big man who effects the game on offense and/or defense. THAT is why he is the greatest. Magic never won a title without Kareem. And before you bring it up, that game 6 title clincer vs. Philly in 1980 was only one game without Kareem...they don't win the series without him. Magic is great, but not as great as Jordan. So, yea...Jordan would have still won the 'chip without Pippen working on Magic.

so having one of the greatest rebounder in NBA history doesn't effect the offense and defense? Jordan had 2 of the best defender on his team. Imagine if how potent Kobe could be if he could rest on D and exert all his energy on offense.

 

[eifmp]

1) As you said, Horace's best statistical season was when Mike was gone, so he had more opportunities to contribute. Could he have done that over 4 years? Why couldn't he? But the situation changed after that...

2) Laimbeer was the olive in the Pistons' martini by the time they started winning championships. Horace meant more to the Bulls than Laimbeer meant to the Pistons champ teams.

3) No, I ABSOLUTELY was NOT a Bulls fan. I wanted Horace away from them and on my team.[/QUOTE

Ok..I give you #1 . We don't know know how Grant would've done with him being more of a focus on the offense.

But on the rest of it I guess we have to agree to disagree then.

 

[Taadow]

Ok..I give you #1 . We don't know know how Grant would've done with him being more of a focus on the offense.

But on the rest of it I guess we have to agree to disagree then.

That's fine, sir.

*handshake*

 

[Wacky D]

'no niqqas' would have no rings if he didnt play with pippen.

they wouldnt have even played the lakers in the finals that year. they wouldve continued getting sonned by the pistons.

theres a reason why he threatened to retire when they tried to trade pippen.

 

[McPiff]

nikka

 

[NormanConnors]

don't act like Mike could not have made adjustments on Magic had he stayed on him the entire series. It was a good coaching move by Phil to not take a chance and gamble though. Besides it wasn't like Magic was shut down that series, Bulls would have won either way.

 

[NormanConnors]

Magic got a triple-double on Pippen too in game 5. A 20 assist one at that. Didn't matter though because we destroyed them boys.

you are right, if the Bulls win that 1st game this thread is void, Magic beasted the entire series. Dude was still in his prime.

 

[Ruby'sRevolver]

This was taken from another site but I thought it was relevant to this discussion....

Magic's 1991 Finals Stats
Game Pts Rebs Ast
1 19 10 11
2* 14 7 10
3* 22 6 10
4* 22 6 11
5* 16 11 20
* games when Johnson was guarded by Pippen

Johnsons's 1991 NBA Finals Stats: 18.6ppg 8.0rpg 12.4apg

Johnson's 1991 NBA Finals stats while guarded by Pippen: 18.5ppg 7.5rpg 12.8apg

Johnson's 1990-91 Regular season stats 19.4ppg 7.0apg 12.5apg

When you consider that an assist causes your team to score 2 points, Johnson was actually more productive for his team (by a tiny fraction) while guarded by Pippen than he was in Game 1 of the 1991 NBA Finals or the 1990-91 regular season.

While Scottie deserves credit for keeping Magic from completely "going off" in the series, Pippen only slowed Johnson down in Game 2. In games 3-5 Johnson averaged 20ppg, 7.7rpg 13.7apg, all better than his regular season numbers. Pippen was a great defender but, Johnson, -like all of the game's All Time Greats do in big games- still "got his" while he was guarded by Scottie Pippen. Johnson even had 20 assists in game 5 when his two long time trusted options: James Worthy and Byron Scott, were out with injuries.