Phil's Drunk Messin' With The Association Save Again: Knicks 2015-2016 Tryout / Off Season Thread

[Trip]

Always with the excuses, Melo has the ball in his hands more than a lot of PGs in the NBA, just because he's not a PG doesn't excuse him. His game itself is not suited to setting people up, instead of skirting around the obvious just say that, stop trying to pass the blame to his teammates. How can you build an effective team around someone that doesn't set people up yet has the ball in his hands a ridiculous amount of time? No matter how many excuses you come up with, a dude taking 20 shots per game over his career and only averaging 3.1apg is pathetic and speaks volumes about his game itself.

He has the 5th highest usage rate in NBA history, of the top 5 he has the lowest assist total by far, PERIOD. The only person in the top 10 for usage rate that averaged less APG was George Gervin, a dude that much like Melo took a shytload of shots while his teammates just stood around watching him. I cannot understand why Melo gets so many excuses, Kobe was killed for the same thing and during his prime he was a much better passer than Melo.

Folks need to stop overrating the ability in creating your own shot. There's no value in a shot that doesn't go in(obvious). Melo takes way too many shots that have little to no chance on going in. His usage rate is entirely out of whack in terms of what he's actually producing.

 

[Malta]

Folks need to stop overrating the ability in creating your own shot. There's no value in a shot that doesn't go in(obvious). Melo takes way too many shots that have little to no chance on going in. His usage rate is entirely out of whack in terms of what he's actually producing.

His ability to create would be great if he actually used it to set up his teammates, 20 shots a game and 3.1apg is disgusting. He's not a very efficient player and people in here are acting like he's some irreplaceable once in a lifetime talent, shyt makes no sense to me the amount of excuses he gets and the level of people have for him.

I see a dude that is great in isolation scoring, but what good is that when the league is moving to more ball movement and this dude can't find the open man to save his life.

 

[Trip]

His ability to create would be great if he actually used it to set up his teammates, 20 shots a game and 3.1apg is disgusting. He's not a very efficient player and people in here are acting like he's some irreplaceable once in a lifetime talent, shyt makes no sense to me the amount of excuses he gets and the level of people have for him.

I see a dude that is great in isolation scoring, but what good is that when the league is moving to more ball movement and this dude can't find the open man to save his life.

http://www.boxscoregeeks.com/articles/the-value-of-shots-taken

This articulates it pretty well

 

[MR. Conclusion]

I just hope we win enough games to attract a decent free agent or two next year.

 

[JMurder]

Dude has never averaged 5apg despite having one of the highest usage rates in NBA history, it ain't like he's finding people off doubles

Apg has already been proven as unreliable stat in terms of a players ability to pass to teammates

 

[mvp_status]

Still waiting for a compelling argument about the value Melo brings to the Knicks other than taking a lot of shots.

The Knicks scored 12.2 more points per 100 possessions with him in the game.

When he was on the floor this past year, the Knicks scored at an efficiency that would've landed them in the top 10 in the league. This is with all the trash that suited up, mind you.

Let's not act like he's an all around negative.

 

[seemorecizzy]

That was a team not at all built by Jackson though. There was enough talent to hope for a playoff berth but everyone played awful and there were too many low iq players for the triangle. I don't think it's fair to shyt on Phil. Name a move from last season that you didn't approve of.

And that last part of your post is projection on your part. I can name examples of caring what your star player wants turning into said star player leaving the team anyway

everything phil did last year from trades, playoff predictions, bizzare tweets, forcing fisher to run the triangle by any means, not showing up was a disaster
anyone who thinks otherwise is caught up in the name
replace that his name with isiah thomas and see what the reaction is

this off season he has a done a decent job
i give him a C
nothing super special
but nothing super bad either


althought giving derrick williams a 10 million dollar contract

 

[Trip]

The Knicks scored 12.2 more points per 100 possessions with him in the game.

When he was on the floor this past year, the Knicks scored at an efficiency that would've landed them in the top 10 in the league. This is with all the trash that suited up, mind you.

Let's not act like he's an all around negative.

There's nothing to take away from last year

 

[seemorecizzy]

Still waiting for a compelling argument about the value Melo brings to the Knicks other than taking a lot of shots.

and im still waiting for you to tell me why having a bunch of role players and unproven "assets" as you like to call them is better than having a top 10 player in the league who has proven he can succeed if you put the right balance of talent around him

 

[mvp_status]

There's nothing to take away from last year

Those numbers were better in '13 & '14 if you really wanna go there

 

[I.V.]

but he let him do that the first year, a year he promised a playoff birth and we ended up having the worst record in franchise history
not "caring less" what your star player has to say has never worked out anywhere on any team

1) Those are your words, you're projecting your childish emotions onto business decisions

2) You're wrong, franchises ignore star player's wishes all the time, that's why you have a GM. They ignore coaches, too. Jordan didn't want the bulls to draft Pippen. Kareem didn't want to run the offense through Magic,

And even if there weren't plenty of examples of coaches and GM's ignoring star players' wishes to, you know... do their job --

What in Carmelo Anthony's career tells us that the Knicks SHOULD listen to him? Is there anything about his game? His own actions? His own decisions? -- That should lead us to believe he knows best how to build a winning team? Or really... sacrifice anything?

and donatas scoliosis is taking us to the playoffs
if you're trying to move melo dont use a fukking scrub as a selling point
get off melo dikk ...he's the best player we've had since mid 90s ewing

Yeah... but he's not that good. This statement actually says more about the sorry state of the Knicks than Carmelo... who has been far from transcendent. He's been an all-star level player AND he's been hurt. They've been bounced from the first round, bounced in the second... and missed the playoffs twice.

You don't trade a guy like Melo for other star players... because he's never proven he can take a team to the next level... you trade him for prospects and draft picks, to set the team up for the future. That's how basketball works.

The best case scenario out there is that a good team makes a run, and thinks having Melo as a scorer puts them over the top, and we get a young player and a couple of firsts out of it. Minny got Wiggins for Love... that's the kind of trade off we're looking for here.

Donatas would be a good example of a player we'd want with one or two firsts... but a back surgery kind of scares me off.

You have to be realistic about two things:

1) What melo has actually done in his career -- rebounded well for his position, and scored a lot, at a mediocre efficiency clip.
and
2) What he is right now. A player on the wrong side of 30, making money that outsizes his impact.

I don't hate Melo, I like him. He made the Knicks briefly relevant again -- and I'm thankful for that. But he is not going to get better over the next four years of his contract. Those are the facts. It is fine to root for him, and like him, and wear his jersey or whatever. But don't come on the board and pretend he's something he's not.

@I.V. Do you believe the hype that Mudiay is better than Russell?

Or is this summer league optical illusion?

I think summer league is a small sample size, and favors people with elite athleticism more than it does somebody with a polished skillset. I don't know who will be the better player... I was personally on board with drafting Mudiay, but would have been very happy to draft Russell as well (I didn't think he'd fall to us).

Russell has to do a few things that Mudiay doesn't, and one is share the ball with clarkson and randle in summer league, and let them get theirs. Both have proven to be ball-dominant thus far... and Russell's best asset may be his vision and creativity in passing.... so in summer league, that's not going to get displayed as much as a guy who can just GO with the ball in his hands.

Now, mudiay has also shown some pretty great vision... It's way to early to make judgements. I'd say, fi people are worried about Russell because of summer league... don't be.

But I think Mudiay has definitely shown WHY he was a projected top 5 pick since two years ago. Big, strong, fast, with vision.

The most beautiful thing I've seen since my children were born.

He's barely off the ground, and just CUFFING it. Outstanding.

Still waiting for a compelling argument about the value Melo brings to the Knicks other than taking a lot of shots.

This is the silliest argument ever. It's a team sport. You're supposed to trust and believe in your teammates.

Well, yes and no.

You tend to talk in broad strokes about "sport" when it fits your narrative. We don't stand around asking why LeBron wasn't trusting Dion Waiters and shyt. There is truth to the fact that the roster has been asscheeks. And I don't mind Carmelo not trusting Lou Amundson...

To me, it's more important that he's never had four assists per game in a season... I care less about trust, and more about the fact that he's not drawing enough defenders to create open looks consistently for teammates.

The problem with this line of thinking is that every other dude that has a similar usage has played with shytty teammates at one time or another, and all have topped 5apg. He has the 5th highest rate in NBA history, the two other dudes in the top 10 that never averaged 5apg are Gervin and Wilkins, great players but career losers that never should have teams built around them

Melo has played with Nene, Afflalo, Billups (semi prime in Denver) and Iverson so it's not like he's always been with bums.

And this is kind of what I'm getting at.

He doesn't suck, he's just not GREAT at that level. He has a varied offensive set, but settles for a lot of long jumpers in stead of getting himself to the line more consistently... which in turn creates less movement, draws fewer defenders, and gets other players open looks far less. And the problem is not his passing ability, it has more to do with playing style and willingness... which is distressing.

People on this site want to talk about him as a top 5 player, or a top 5 offensive player (to narrow it and avoid his other shortcoming) -- show me how many top five players in the nba at the wing and guard positions, historically... have been so bad at passing the ball.

You clearly are just hating . Melo isn't a point guard his job is to score and when you have a bunch of inaccurate teammates who can't capitalize off your double team your not going to have a lot of assists .

But even when he had good teammates, Chauncey, Nene, Afflalo... he still wasn't getting assists. So, THAT argument falls flat.


The guy can't win .

Well, this is true.

Cp3 is suppose to be making all his teammates better yet DJ can't stand him and he's never been as far as Melo in the playoffs .

Two things:
1) DeAndre Jordan not liking CP3 does not change the fact that Chris Paul's production on the basketball court... is very good.
and
2) Chris Paul has been better, more effective, and more successful than Melo over the last five years. Carmelo has been out of the first round twice in his career. CP3: 4 Times.

Consistent, sustained success. That is the goal. That is all that matters.

Bron always needs more help for some reason yet Melo should just be making his team of scrubs better through his will .

LeBron has taken team's of scrubs to the finals, and has won championships. This is a bad comparison for you, because Carmelo is not, and has never been on LeBron's level. He's not in that kind of conversation.

Durant has Westbrook and Ibaka but he also needs more help .

Nope. They just need to be healthy.

Why is Melo held to some standard and at the same time all you people say is how he's not that good .

Here is the most crucial point -- you seem mad about the feelings. This whole post is about feelings.

The idea that - of all things - people are unfairly critical of Carmelo but NOT LeBron just shows such a disconnect with reality... if anything, the expectations for Carmelo have been lowered, where as they have been raised for LeBron, Chris Paul, Durant, and even guys like James Harden and Russell Westbrook and Steph Curry...

You can't make a statistical argument for Carmelo, and you can't show any recent success... so the argument turns into "People say this" "People say that" You'd rather talk about what people are saying, than when Carmelo is doing -- which is firing up more long jumpers, getting to the hoop less, drawing fewer fouls, having zero impact on defense, failing to distribute or move the offense, and making way too much money for a guy who has passed his athletic prime, and he's missed 20+ games per season over the last three years.

I actually still think you can build a great team with melo as your best player... I just think it is VERY hard. And it must be... because it hasn't really been done yet... and he isn't getting better or more dynamic over the next 4 years.

 

[JerseyFinest!]

still on this Melo ish

Since Melo arrival the Knicks have had a complete roster once, and that resulted in 54 wins
Did Melo cause it by demanding a mid-season trade to get paid, yeah so he has to eat some of the criticism he gets

But when I see dudes going on and on about the same thing, and it's the off-season.
it's obvious it's an agenda attached.

I still remember when the Knicks went on that 16 game win streak and a certain poster was M.I.A. but the weeks prior was all over when the Knicks was struggling with his usual Melo rhetoric And you know who you are

 

[MostReal]

They'll play together fine as long as they're willing too. Think of Melo as the 4 and Zingis as the 3 on offense. That high low would be devastating.

it'd be sweet, I can't wait to see how they mesh

 

[NY's #1 Draft Pick]

still on this Melo ish

Since Melo arrival the Knicks have had a complete roster once, and that resulted in 54 wins
Did Melo cause it by demanding a mid-season trade to get paid, yeah so he has to eat some of the criticism he gets

But when I see dudes going on and on about the same thing, and it's the off-season.
it's obvious it's an agenda attached.

I still remember when the Knicks went on that 16 game win streak and a certain poster was M.I.A. but the weeks prior was all over when the Knicks was struggling with his usual Melo rhetoric And you know who you are

Call his ass out!'

 

[I.V.]

Honestly... the Knicks' current plan is much bigger than Carmelo -- as it should be.

I can't believe that in an offseason where the Knicks drafted a young, talented player with a bunch of potential, traded a certified chucker-bum for another young prospect, and made smart signings... people are wringing their hands over Carmelo's feelings. This team is better this season that it was last season. That is a good thing. We didn't make any harmful long-term signings, we didn't trade away assets for an Italian dumpster fire.

The only thing that would have changed this team DRAMATICALLY would have been Marc Gasol signing. He was never leaving memphis, so the knicks - instead of panicking and maxing Kanter or some dumb shyt - grabbed solid players on reasonable deals that will help.

And now our two young draft picks are playing their asses off in summer league... It's been a good summer. Relax. :knickphil: