Hip Hop Outkast or Mobb Deep...who was the better duo?

[mobbinfms]

As dope as he was from '95-'99, Pac, Biggie, Nas, and Jay were doing things like this lyrically:

Nas- Nas was penning masterpieces like "I Gave You Power" and "Undying Love". There was also "The Message", "If I Ruled The World", "Nas Is Like", "Project Windows" etc. Not to mention how Nas had memorable features that included Rae's "Verbal Intercourse", Mobb Deep's own "Eye For An Eye", and Kool G. Rap's "Fast Life"

Pac- Pac had "If I Should Die 2nite" and "Me Against The World", basically the whole MATW album. All Eyez On Me is a lighter album lyrically, but Makaveli 7 Day Theory had "Blasphemy", "Me And My Girlfriend", and "Against All Odds".

Jay Z- Reasonable Doubt had "Can't Knock The Hustle", "Can I Live", "D'evils", and "22 Twos", not to mention he sparred with Biggie on several songs ("BK's Finest", "I Love The Dough", and "Young G's Perspective") from '96-'97. He was writing for Foxy, which is a testament to his skills and songwriting. Who wants a mediocre writer to write for another artist? There's also "You Must Love Me" from Vol. 1

Biggie- Biggie had gems like "Sky's The Limit", "Ten Crack Commandments", "Kick In The Door". He masterfully told some crazy stories with "N**** Bleed", "I Got A Story To Tell", "Somebody's Gotta Die", and "You're Nobody"

^^^ Those are some of the greatest Hip Hop records ever written. Prodigy doesn't have a catalog of songs that are lyrically on par with those. Prodigy is being severely overrated.

First of all, it pretty clear that the case you put forth for Pac is the weakest. Second, Cam and Sauce Money were also doing ghostwriting during this period, does that mean they were considered the elite top dog lyricists of that era?
@ISOMELO made a great case for Prodigy that you never responded to. I would add to it his verse on Apostle's Warning, his verse on Up North Trip.

 

[mobbinfms]

Cube and Rakim were still relevant in the 90's. Jay Z was around for most of Mobb Deep's 90's run.

What does it matter if they were so called washed up by the time Mobb Deep blew up? Is Mobb Deep a better group than ATCQ?

Mobb Deep was not on par with Bone Thugs N Harmony, Wu Tang Clan, ATCQ, or OutKast in the 90's. LOL @ Lost Boyz. Only Legal Drug Money was a big deal.

What is the basis for saying that there cannot be two top tier hip hop groups from the same borough?

 

[mobbinfms]

1) Prodigy didn't have a solo album out in the 90's to even be on the level of any of those rappers

2) Rakim made a respectable comeback in 1997 which was during the time that Mobb Deep was active

3) The reason that ATCQ was even brought up is because I posted that Mobb Deep wasn't even the best group from Queens. It was questioned who was I referring to: CNN or the Lost Boyz? That's when I posted ATCQ.

4) It doesn't matter if Kast was mentioned in the same breath as Bone Thugs or Wu Tang in the 90's. Mobb Deep wasn't either. You're delusional if you think Mobb Deep was a bigger deal than OutKast at any point.

Not having a solo album is irrelevant. I understand your position that that means Prodigy didn't have to pen as many great verses, but that's irrelevant because he produced at an elite level for three straight albums (plus Noyd's EP).
Ra's album was alright. Lyrically it was great. If we stick to the script though, from 95-99, both Kast and Mobb meant more to the game lyrically than Ra.
I did t think of Tribe because I was thinking of the groups that were popping in the time frame we were talking about.
Bigger deal mean sales? Or who was the more important group making better music? Two different answers.

 

[SummerNights]

OutKast easily
ATLiens, Aquemini, Stankonia > All of Mobb Deep's albums

 

[torcher]

OutKast easily
ATLiens, Aquemini, Stankonia > All of Mobb Deep's albums

 

[Don Mack]

What does that even mean? Mobb Deep wasn't a kids group.

Meant nobody sane believed the Mobb deep fairy tales, especially after P got slapped around by various washed up rappers such as Keith Murray, and put on that Summerjam screen.

 

[JustCKing]

Not having a solo album is irrelevant. I understand your position that that means Prodigy didn't have to pen as many great verses, but that's irrelevant because he produced at an elite level for three straight albums (plus Noyd's EP).
Ra's album was alright. Lyrically it was great. If we stick to the script though, from 95-99, both Kast and Mobb meant more to the game lyrically than Ra.
I did t think of Tribe because I was thinking of the groups that were popping in the time frame we were talking about.
Bigger deal mean sales? Or who was the more important group making better music? Two different answers.

Not having a solo album is relevant, unless it's his guest verses we're discussing here. Yes, Prodigy was great for three straight albums, but he wasn't top tier great. Who besides Mobb fans ranked Prodigy as an elite lyricist?

I mentioned Ra because he was still considered to be GOAT or at least Top 3 at the time. There's still people that believe Nas and Jay haven't surpassed him.

First of all, it pretty clear that the case you put forth for Pac is the weakest. Second, Cam and Sauce Money were also doing ghostwriting during this period, does that mean they were considered the elite top dog lyricists of that era?
@ISOMELO made a great case for Prodigy that you never responded to. I would add to it his verse on Apostle's Warning, his verse on Up North Trip.

What makes the case for Pac weak? Cam and Sauce Money don't have a Reasonable Doubt to make a case to be elite lyricist. Jay's albums in the 90's AND his ghostwriting make him elite, not just his ghostwriting alone. We could go back and forth with individual verses all day. I've already acknowledged that Prodigy was great during that period, he just wasn't up to par with Nas, Biggie, Pac, or Jay. There's a reason why they are still mentioned as GOAT lyricists where Prodigy isn't. If Prodigy was a top tier lyricist in the 90's, the work would speak for itself and he'd still be in that class of MC today. Yes, he fell off, but people still rank several rappers from the 80's who fell off.

What is the basis for saying that there cannot be two top tier hip hop groups from the same borough?

I never implied that there couldn't be two top tier groups. As I've posted already, how can you make a case for Mobb Deep being a top tier group when they aren't even the best from their own borough? Meaning that if a list of top tier groups were compiled and there were nine groups on the list not from Queens, Mobb Deep wouldn't be in the Top 10 because of ATCQ.

 

[RTF]

Sounds nerdy but i'm more of an outcast than someone than someone who will be found rolling deep or in a mob. So while I love Mobb Deep it's a vicarious experience. I feel like i'm in QB in the 90's which is a great thing.


But OutKast is something I really connect to. And it's not the experience I connect to, it's the emotion and feeling. I can relate to J. Cole more than any rapper on an experience level but he doesn't connect it, emotionally. With 'Kast it really connects. Dre's verse on Milenium might be my favourite verse ever.

 

[MR. Conclusion]

3. I didn't criticize Mobb Deep by saying Tribe was better. I was saying, how could they be a top tier group and not even be the best out of their own borough.

Definitely no shame in it, but hurts any argument that Mobb Deep was somehow a top tier group in Hip Hop.

I guess Jay can't be a top tier rapper because Biggie was also from Brooklyn.

If Biggie is considered better than Jay, how can Jay be GOAT. "If I ain't better than Big, I'm the closest one"--- Jay Z. Even he knew that he'd have to surpass Big to be in contention. Not just because Big was from BK, but because Big was considered GOAT.

Your argument was based on Top Tier, not GOAT.

Again, your argument is that Mobb Deep can't be a Top Tier rap group because of other successful groups from their borough. That's like saying Jay can't be a TOP TIER rapper because Biggie was also from his borough. That makes no sense. All it means that there were some really great acts that came out of one area. I think you're confusing Top Tier (multiple) with Goat (single).

"Eminem can't be a Top Tier rapper because he's from the same country as 2Pac"

"CP3 can't be a Top Tier guard because he plays in the same stadium as Kobe"

Does that make sense to you?

 

[MR. Conclusion]

And one other thing...How is it a foregone conclusion that they're not the best rap group to come out of Queens? That's an actual debate.

 

[mobbinfms]

OutKast easily
ATLiens, Aquemini, Stankonia > All of Mobb Deep's albums

Stankonia? Stankonia?
The interesting thing about Kast is there doesn't seem to be any consensus about what there best album is.

 

[Poitier]

Stankonia? Stankonia?
The interesting thing about Kast is there doesn't seem to be any consensus about what there best album is.

They made tons of 7/8 and 8/8 albums but no 10/10 album.

 

[Illin Degenerate]

Murda Muzik can't compare to ATLiens?

no it cant, doesnt reach the heights of atliens and tracks like streets raised me, thug musik, and allowing nas to do a boys is mine remix over that scarface sample are just a few of a number of reasons. its certainly not a wack album, but nowhere near classic.

 

[JustCKing]

Your argument was based on Top Tier, not GOAT.

Again, your argument is that Mobb Deep can't be a Top Tier rap group because of other successful groups from their borough. That's like saying Jay can't be a TOP TIER rapper because Biggie was also from his borough. That makes no sense. All it means that there were some really great acts that came out of one area. I think you're confusing Top Tier (multiple) with Goat (single).

"Eminem can't be a Top Tier rapper because he's from the same country as 2Pac"

"CP3 can't be a Top Tier guard because he plays in the same stadium as Kobe"

Does that make sense to you?

I've already explained this. If ATCQ is ranked over Mobb Deep and you have nine other groups that are ranked higher than ATCQ, how is Mobb Deep top tier. This is hypothetical by the way. The same as if someone ranks Biggie over Jay and have 9 other rappers ranked over Biggie, how is Jay top tier. If 2Pac is ranked over Eminem, and there's several other rappers ranked over 2Pac, how is Eminem top tier. If Kobe is ranked over CP3, and there's several other players ranked over Kobe, how is CP3 top tier.

So yes, it makes sense to me. Does it make sense to you?

And one other thing...How is it a foregone conclusion that they're not the best rap group to come out of Queens? That's an actual debate.

How is it a forgone conclusion that Prodigy's a top tier lyricist? That's just as debatable as them not being the best rap group to come out of Queens. In fact both discussions deserve their own threads.

 

[Poitier]

no it cant, doesnt reach the heights of atliens and tracks like streets raised me, thug musik, and allowing nas to do a boys is mine remix over that scarface sample are just a few of a number of reasons. its certainly not a wack album, but nowhere near classic.

Ok and Infamous > Aquemnini

HOE> Southernplaya

2/3 is definitely more than enough to give Mobb the nod