One Year Later, Here's What San Jose Looks Like After Raising the Minimum Wage

DEAD7

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Raising the minimum wage too high would obviously hurt businesses, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one.

There's a trade-off between job losses and benefit to low-wage workers. If the min-wage is too low (or nonexistent), then low-income workers get exploited and we end up with an unnecessarily large amount of people getting government assistance. If it's too high, jobs start getting cut and many of these workers end up on gov. assistance anyway due to lack of jobs.

So the thing to do is to try to find the sweet spot where where the benefit to low-income workers (in terms of wages) outweighs job losses.


I dunno exactly where the sweet spot is, but at the moment I'm of the mind that $15/hr might be a bit too high (not that I think it'll bring the city down or anything, just might lead to too many jobs cut). Personally I'd say set it somewhere in the $10-$12 range and somehow index it to inflation, and go from there.
This is really all I was getting at. A lot arguments made for a min wage increase, are framed as absolutes, and i just think we(myself included) should be clear about what we are talking about.

I thought it was pretty much assumed the left meant a 10-12 dollar wage, but now that many are jumping behind a $15 wage it raises the questions, what is slight? why not more? etc.
 
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If you read my post, I wasnt making a point, I was just pointing out that we(myself included) should be clear.

You always deflect tho. I've engaged in conversations with you several times and you seem to derail the conversation every time. You have proof, not only in San Jose, but in San Francisco that a rise in minimum wage is productive and helps the economy. Why are you still arguing that no min. wage is the answer? There has been many instances where the min. wage is really low thus below the S/D equilibrium and has been proven to increase poverty or, at the least, not improve the living standard for workers in those settings so why are you holding on to outdated thinking?
 

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It should be a living wage
but let me help you out further
what you proposed earlier are not the only two possible purposes of the living wage, but let's play with your ideas
1.


choose this one and you would basically be advocating for raising the minimum wage
since


2.

choose this one and I guess we are back to some version of not quite slavery? does it sound ridiculous to you to have that as the aspiration of a first world society?
Again...THIS MAKES NO SENSE.

Most people DO NOT make minimum wage. They just dont.

I already posted those stats. Stats from the government, from independent researchers, and even opinionated people all agree on this matter.

And again, you don't understand what a protection against exploitation means. Its not "oh you should make this for the rest of your life" its "in order to ensure youre being treated SOMEWHAT fair, you must be paid this amount"

I don't see why minimum wage had to be a standard of living...or what you ambiguously call a "living wage" ..WTF is that?

How does saying this equate to slavery???? :what:

Yes. Some people WILL make minimum wage. Not everyone will, or even can do all types of work. Stop playing games here.

What does living in a first world society have to do with the fact that some people WILL work shyt jobs with shyt pay? Thats motivation to rise up in any manner.

There is NO obligation you have to be owned what you vaguely call "living wage" if you're not going to define it.

If you're living off mini wage, then that sucks. I dont know what to tell you. You can't be a grown adult doing shyt like that.

Government, in my view, should set a FLOOR not a standard.
 

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Raising the minimum wage too high would obviously hurt businesses, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one.

There's a trade-off between job losses and benefit to low-wage workers. If the min-wage is too low (or nonexistent), then low-income workers get exploited and we end up with an unnecessarily large amount of people getting government assistance. If it's too high, jobs start getting cut and many of these workers end up on gov. assistance anyway due to lack of jobs.

So the thing to do is to try to find the sweet spot where where the benefit to low-income workers (in terms of wages) outweighs job losses.


I dunno exactly where the sweet spot is, but at the moment I'm of the mind that $15/hr might be a bit too high (not that I think it'll bring the city down or anything, just might lead to too many jobs cut). Personally I'd say set it somewhere in the $10-$12 range and somehow index it to inflation, and go from there.
I think most of us agree here.

But dudes supporting $15 and hour are on some wild shyt.

Cause most people DO NOT make minimum wage. The average in 2012 for all workers was 4.7% and ballooned up to about 19% in the hospitality service industry if looked at separately... This is according to the government too.

NO ONE is supporting being exploited, but we can't look at the minimum wage as a means of leveling the standard of living. Thats just ridiculous.

What no one wants to admit in here is that having a mini wage spurs creativity and creates opportunities when people want to improve their lives. That motivation is something that can't be overlooked.
 

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You always deflect tho. I've engaged in conversations with you several times and you seem to derail the conversation every time. You have proof, not only in San Jose, but in San Francisco that a rise in minimum wage is productive and helps the economy. Why are you still arguing that no min. wage is the answer? There has been many instances where the min. wage is really low thus below the S/D equilibrium and has been proven to increase poverty or, at the least, not improve the living standard for workers in those settings so why are you holding on to outdated thinking?
I'm holding off on that San Jose story. Its only been a year and its way too long to take economic data that seriously with only slight changes.

That shyt ignores the fact that Silicon Valley is just getting expensive in general dude to the nature of the businesses there.
 

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I'm holding off on that San Jose story. Its only been a year and its way too long to take economic data that seriously with only slight changes.

That shyt ignores the fact that Silicon Valley is just getting expensive in general dude to the nature of the businesses there.

Getting expensive is a natural progression of any city. They're not increasing min. wage because rent or any other cost of living is increasing since minorities and low-wage workers are already moving out to neighboring cities. The increase in wage is simply adjusting for inflation and forcing a distribution of wealth.

The Bay Area is a reflection of New York in the 80's and 90's where the economy grew exponentially and jobs were popping up everywhere. The only difference is that the city government allowed the "free-market" to adjust and that the invisible hand (:snoop:) would allocate resources properly. Well, it didn't and living expenses, rent, utilities, and real estate boom forced minorities not only out of the city but out of the workforce too. SF and SJ are doing exactly what is supposed to be done and the "economic data" (what metrics would prove it for you?) will prove that.
 

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You always deflect tho. I've engaged in conversations with you several times and you seem to derail the conversation every time. You have proof, not only in San Jose, but in San Francisco that a rise in minimum wage is productive and helps the economy. Why are you still arguing that no min. wage is the answer? There has been many instances where the min. wage is really low thus below the S/D equilibrium and has been proven to increase poverty or, at the least, not improve the living standard for workers in those settings so why are you holding on to outdated thinking?
Abolishing the min wage alone, is definitely not the answer, and I apologize if I have been giving that impression, but as we have seen with the last 20-30 minimum wage increases it isnt the solution either.
Raising the wage doesn't solve the problem, yet its the only course of action you are willing to entertain... enlighten me as to why that is? :ld:

 

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Getting expensive is a natural progression of any city. They're not increasing min. wage because rent or any other cost of living is increasing since minorities and low-wage workers are already moving out to neighboring cities. The increase in wage is simply adjusting for inflation and forcing a distribution of wealth.

The Bay Area is a reflection of New York in the 80's and 90's where the economy grew exponentially and jobs were popping up everywhere. The only difference is that the city government allowed the "free-market" to adjust and that the invisible hand (:snoop:) would allocate resources properly. Well, it didn't and living expenses, rent, utilities, and real estate boom forced minorities not only out of the city but out of the workforce too. SF and SJ are doing exactly what is supposed to be done and the "economic data" (what metrics would prove it for you?) will prove that.
But you missed the point of what I'm talking about.

These mini wage increases have not been around long enough to truly know how helpful they are.

Employment has JUST rebounded in parts of the country.
 

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Again...THIS MAKES NO SENSE.
Makes perfect sense to me
a good society makes sure that legal work occupying a third of the day of an adult should provide a living wage
this UK and Switzerland definition will do fine
uBEedtJ.png

Most people DO NOT make minimum wage. They just dont.
not sure why this matters
this is about protecting the least of us
people who make more can keep making more :yeshrug:
MXRAHep.png

Characteristics of Minimum Wage Workers: 2011

And again, you don't understand what a protection against exploitation means.
No, I understand just fine

Its not "oh you should make this for the rest of your life" its "in order to ensure youre being treated SOMEWHAT fair, you must be paid this amount"
says who?

I don't see why minimum wage had to be a standard of living...or what you ambiguously call a "living wage" ..WTF is that?
ambiguous? living wage is not some exotic concept, everyone knows the basic definition and if they don't, google is right there with wikipedia waiting for them
How does saying this equate to slavery???? :what:
I have no idea what you are talking about, I'm thinking you're in the same boat


Yes. Some people WILL make minimum wage. Not everyone will, or even can do all types of work.
and those people are protesting for a higher minimum wage and I support them100%

Stop playing games here.
you first!:mjlol:

What does living in a first world society have to do with the fact that some people WILL work shyt jobs with shyt pay?
yeah we have different views on what society should be, I like mine better than yours

Thats motivation to rise up in any manner.
the delusion:mjlol:

There is NO obligation you have to be owned what you vaguely call "living wage" if you're not going to define it.
I have no idea what this means:dwillhuh:
If you're living off mini wage, then that sucks. I dont know what to tell you. You can't be a grown adult doing shyt like that.
bro...that's a cool story:skip:
Government, in my view, should set a FLOOR not a standard.
well thanks for sharing your view
 

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Raising the minimum wage too high would obviously hurt businesses, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be one.

There's a trade-off between job losses and benefit to low-wage workers. If the min-wage is too low (or nonexistent), then low-income workers get exploited and we end up with an unnecessarily large amount of people getting government assistance. If it's too high, jobs start getting cut and many of these workers end up on gov. assistance anyway due to lack of jobs.

So the thing to do is to try to find the sweet spot where where the benefit to low-income workers (in terms of wages) outweighs job losses.


I dunno exactly where the sweet spot is, but at the moment I'm of the mind that $15/hr might be a bit too high (not that I think it'll bring the city down or anything, just might lead to too many jobs cut). Personally I'd say set it somewhere in the $10-$12 range and somehow index it to inflation, and go from there.

This is why dudes straight walk out of jobs, not a care in the world.

I think 13 is the sweet spot (27k) a year is about right for the unskilled.

under 10 is just robbery.
 

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Abolishing the min wage alone, is definitely not the answer, and I apologize if I have been giving that impression, but as we have seen with the last 20-30 minimum wage increases it isnt the solution either.
Raising the wage doesn't solve the problem, yet its the only course of action you are willing to entertain... enlighten me as to why that is? :ld:
Everything below is from an economic standpoint so I don't want to offend anyone by potentially being insensitive.

Well, first of all, we live in a world that has disrupted economic trends all throughout history by colonization, slavery, world wars, and all other violent and nonproductive events. We have people that whine about centralized control and government interferences when it wasn't a problem when the country was all over the world robbing resources. If you gain externalities (resources not accounted for in the region's economy) you inherit their problems and you create a system dependent on government interventions due to the centralized control of said resources. Let's start with the late 1800's when USA was growing the most due to these world adventures.You can then dive into the steel, railroad, and other monopolized industries who act as profiteers and vulture on political discrepancies. Here you see clear tendencies of people not caring about the country's progression but instead of their own wealth. This egoistic outlook is followed by the disregard for human well-being in the late 1800's/1900's in the meat industry. Because slavery and other economic traditions was prevalent, employers did not see any need to tend to employees welfare hence the book "The Jungle" and government regulations to protect workers.

We can then continue onto the 20-30s :snoop: where the economy was a laughing stock to the world. Then we can go to the 30's all the way up to the 60's where EMPLOYERS, not the government, removed a large part of the workforce due to their racial makeup.

That is why I believe that it is the only course of action.

I can go deeper if you want but my main point is that the government has to interfere in the economy or else human instincts, or fukk that, AMERICAN instincts of greed and independent success will prevail and 60-70% of the country will live in poverty forever. It's a mentality that the country has built up due to their reluctance to the rest of the world and being a dominant force in economic aggression and being dependent on external human and natural resources. Again, the current economic set up is dependent on a overseeing body since it was nurtured by it.

So now to the contemporary; raising min. wage is the only option to ensure a distribution of wealth since it is the only method that forces employers to regard their workers' value. The value of a lower-tier worker should increase at the same rate that an medium or upper-tier worker does in places like San Jose. The companies that pay min. wage are usually restaurants and service-based firms who serve customers that work at the places that are expanding. So if Mcdonalds, for example, decides to raise the cost of a Big Mac (which they have in SJ, Pleasanton, Mountain View, San Francisco etc) then the employees deserve to gain from the revenue increase. This false logic that companies are hurt by the increase in wages is what is toxic to this country on all levels. CostCo and Trader Joe's are two of the fastest growing companies in California and you don't see them complain about the rise in cost although they already pay high wages.

But you missed the point of what I'm talking about.

These mini wage increases have not been around long enough to truly know how helpful they are.

Employment has JUST rebounded in parts of the country.

I perfectly understood your point. You're saying it's too early to know and I'm saying that it's not.
 
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:whoa: :whoa: :whoa: :whoa: :whoa: :whoa: :whoa: :whoa:

I am glad raising minimum wage worked out for them. But this sounds like a major case of confusing correlation with causation. Are they trying to say that minimum wages helped businesses grow and drop unemployment? What about all the rest of the cities in the country that have grown and dropped UE without raising minimum wage?

Plus how many people in San Jose were making minimum wage AND working full time? Most minimum wage jobs are not full time.

I'm just not buying it.......
 

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So now to the contemporary; raising min. wage is the only option to ensure a distribution of wealth since it is the only method that forces employers to regard their workers' value. The value of a lower-tier worker should increase at the same rate that an medium or upper-tier worker does in places like San Jose. The companies that pay min. wage are usually restaurants and service-based firms who serve customers that work at the places that are expanding. So if Mcdonalds, for example, decides to raise the cost of a Big Mac (which they have in SJ, Pleasanton, Mountain View, San Francisco etc) then the employees deserve to gain from the revenue increase. This false logic that companies are hurt by the increase in wages is what is toxic to this country on all levels. CostCo and Trader Joe's are two of the fastest growing companies in California and you don't see them complain about the raise in cost although they already pay high wages.
Fair enough :ehh: I disagree that its the only option, but you make a strong case for it.


I (wholeheartedly)believe all "value" to be subjective, so when you say "
The value of a lower-tier worker should increase at the same rate that an medium or upper-tier worker" I see it as pure opinion, and not something we should legislate.
I also disagree that govt. should "
force employers to regard their workers' value", and I don't believe a 3rd party far removed from the exchange, is even capable of assessing that value.

How would you feel about removing the min wage and implementing a negative tax? This is what I really want/ think should happen. It catches those at the bottom, and increases the flexibility of those at the top.


Negative income tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
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