Official Justice League "Snyder Cut" Thread

[HipHopStan]

I can see both sides of this argument. I just hope whoever made the call to not release the Unrated version of Batman V Superman and the unreleased version of Suicide Squad in theaters got shown the door, or at the very least, got knocked down a few pegs at the office. What a terrible, terrible decision.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I can see both sides of this argument. I just hope whoever made the call to not release the Unrated version of Batman V Superman and the unreleased version of Suicide Squad in theaters got shown the door, or at the very least, got knocked down a few pegs at the office. What a terrible, terrible decision.

Okay here’s my main thing here and why it wouldn’t have changed much for me.

the directors cut of Batman v Superman doesn’t do enough to establish how different those two characters are. And it still doesn’t earn the ending where Bruce is now a changed man and sees Clark as the best of us and this light of humanity.

does it solve some of its narrative shortcuts? Absolutely. Does it make more sense? Yes. But it doesn’t change the core of that movie or add anything to its main conflict to earn its ending.

The main thing the directors cut does is establish Superman isn’t a jerk. But we knew that already and knew Batman was being extra as hell. That’s it.

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

I can see both sides of this argument. I just hope whoever made the call to not release the Unrated version of Batman V Superman and the unreleased version of Suicide Squad in theaters got shown the door, or at the very least, got knocked down a few pegs at the office. What a terrible, terrible decision.

They were all fired eventually. i mean WB still has some people there but nobody who was a higher up and they still work with some producers but the head execs were all pretty much shown the door a long time ago.. AT&T controls everything over there..

it was AT&T who went to Snyder and it was AT&T who said fucc feelings we putting this whole years movie slate on HBO MAX. AT&T are not perfect by any means they are gonna lose a lot of money on their DirecTV venture but what they do know how to do is make money.

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

Okay here’s my main thing here and why it wouldn’t have changed much for me.

the directors cut of Batman v Superman doesn’t do enough to establish how different those two characters are. And it still doesn’t earn the ending where Bruce is now a changed man and sees Clark as the best of us and this light of humanity.

does it solve some of its narrative shortcuts? Absolutely. Does it make more sense? Yes. But it doesn’t change the core of that movie or add anything to its main conflict to earn its ending.

The main thing the directors cut does is establish Superman isn’t a jerk. But we knew that already and knew Batman was being extra as hell. That’s it.

it does two things that are essential imo..

1. it shows in great detail how Lex is pulling all the strings behind the scenes. it shows how he better setup Batman in the prison system and it shows how he setup Superman in the desert. Those are the central elements the story needs to show why there is conflict and just how powerful Lex is at using his funds to manipulate.

2. it shows how torn down and over the edge Bruce has become (everyone he loves dying and vivid premonitions) and WHY Superman has grown cynical of the world he is protecting.. (media coverage and Congress)

There is no story without all those details.

The added stuff also lowkey is setting up exactly how we arrive at the Justice League movie. Motherboxes.. God is dead.. other dimensions with a watchful eye.

 

[MartyMcFly]

it does two things that are essential imo..

1. it shows in great detail how Lex is pulling all the strings behind the scenes. it shows how he better setup Batman in the prison system and it shows how he setup Superman in the desert. Those are the central elements the story needs to show why there is conflict and just how powerful Lex is at using his funds to manipulate.

2. it shows how torn down and over the edge Bruce has become (everyone he loves dying and vivid premonitions) and WHY Superman has grown cynical of the world he is protecting.. (media coverage and Congress)

There is no story without all those details.

The added stuff also lowkey is setting up exactly how we arrive at the Justice League movie. Motherboxes.. God is dead.. other dimensions with a watchful eye.

Yeah I know. But that doesn’t change the ending emotionally which is my point.

if you’re building your story to this point where this hardened crime fighter has a come to Jesus moment then I need to see that. The movie told rather than show which is a cardinal sin in movies.

your last point is what I meant when I said it makes him not a jerk. He’s not. But the movie doesn’t truly paint them in that different of lights nor does it really show him being this beacon. Especially since Bruce never finds out the truth we see. Bruce sees him sacrifice himself and then has a change of heart. There are steps missing there to get from point A to point B. It leaned too much on an understanding of those characters rather than using the story to illustrate it.

both cuts of the movie do that and that’s a huge issue for me. And goes back to my beef with Snyder which is the way he handles character.

 

[Legal]

None of this makes sense. You are saying that the extra runtime made the movie better but then you are also saying that they don't need extra runtime to tell the story... But then you are saying that they are cramming too much into one movie..

The stories do need to be that long to be told effectively... Snyder wasn't hired originally to tell a JL movie in two hours. He was given a 3-film deal and then the studio started changing everything before BvS came out.

The problem with the WB execs at the time.. they didn't believe the quality would matter to their bottom line. They thought they could cut corners and still churn out a billy.

Makes perfect sense, though. You're acting like everything has to be an absolute, and throwing absolutely everything at the feet of WB execs. Snyder had responsibility for the failure, too. Because, as I remember it, the decision to trim Justice League down to one movie came after BvS underperformed.

Also, liking a movie doesn't automatically make it good. We've all got movies that we enjoy that we know aren't actually good movies. And just because a movie is improved doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. It just means that it's better than it used to be.

BvS had to introduce Batman, give him a reason he would've had reason to dislike Superman in the first place, along with establish develop the Superman character enough to make his death significant, introduce and develop Lux Luthor as a central antagonist, introduce Wonder Woman, introduce at least the general concept of the Justice League, throw out the general notion of Steppenwolf/Darkseid, along with establish that Luthor wasn't as crazy as the audience is lead to believe he is. Not to mention that it also had to introduce a threat powerful enough to kill Superman.

It's not a hot take to say that that's too much to ask a director to cover in one movie. And some of Snyder's choices reflect that as well. The movie takes the time to kill the Waynes onscreen again at the beginning, but Batman's existence up to that point is basically summed up by the movie as "he's seen some shyt, man" and trying to hint at other details. The most interesting thing it offered up on his backstory is the Robin armor chilling in the Batcave.

And my argument wasn't that they didn't need extra minutes, it's that the solution to making these movies good can't be just to make it longer every single time. Eventually, someone needs to realize that the solution is just to make a better movie overall.

But I will agree that at the heart of the issue with the DCEU as a whole was that WB tried to skip to the end where grossing a billion is a normal occurrence. In my opinion, BvS shouldn't have happened at that point, simply because jumping straight to that from Man of Steel would inevitably end up with an overstuffed movie.

 

[Rayzah]

That is your personal preference but it isn't something that objectively makes a film good or bad if it is or isn't included.
Batman Begins was flames and it didn't include not one reference to anything outside of Batman's mythology.
Blade and Blade 2 were great movies and not having an appearance by Dr. Strange didn't lessen the entertainment value of those movies.
The good X-Men movies were self-contained to X-Men characters only and they worked.
Iron Man would've still be an awesome movie even if it didn't include that post-credits scene with Nick Fury talking about the Avengers Initiative.

It doesn’t make sense after seeing marvel get it right, that’s my point. Back during the old Batman movie we just assumed it costed too much or the Hollywood studios didn’t really understand the comics like that and they just used the most mainstream characters and made decent to good movies.

However mcu laid a simple blueprint and WB tried to mimick it but fails caused they ain’t build up the characters. They rushed it, so how about instead of throwing in the towel and saying it’s too hard. How about they take a step back and just fukking copy marvel. Like I said it doesn’t have to be JL level. Just take your time and make it work

 

[gluvnast]

Yeah I know. But that doesn’t change the ending emotionally which is my point.

if you’re building your story to this point where this hardened crime fighter has a come to Jesus moment then I need to see that. The movie told rather than show which is a cardinal sin in movies.

your last point is what I meant when I said it makes him not a jerk. He’s not. But the movie doesn’t truly paint them in that different of lights nor does it really show him being this beacon. Especially since Bruce never finds out the truth we see. Bruce sees him sacrifice himself and then has a change of heart. There are steps missing there to get from point A to point B. It leaned too much on an understanding of those characters rather than using the story to illustrate it.

both cuts of the movie do that and that’s a huge issue for me. And goes back to my beef with Snyder which is the way he handles character.

I completely disagree with you on this. Or maybe you claim you want more show and less tell yet somehow wasn't paying attention at what was shown.

First let's begin with the infamous "Martha" scene. It was when at near death where Clark said "save Martha...find him" and whatnot, of course Batman saw the obvious connection between both the mother's first names, but it was at that POINT for the first time Batman saw Superman in a humanizing way and not a dangerous alien like he was manipulated into believing. So, his views were already changing knowing that he has a mother and he wasn't going to allow that Martha to be killed like his own mother was killed. Then comes Doomsday. Batman sees not just this alien that he initially had beef with sacrificed himself for this planet, but also sees the woman that loves him lean over grieving. What did you think he was feeling at that moment? That this alien has a mother, he has a woman that loved him, that actually sacrificed himself for the human race.

Then it shows immediately after that the Daily Planet running the story on the death of Superman and how Lex Luthor was behind it all, because guess who's the source., Lois Lane. That paper and the news of everything that actually happened circulated worldwide, the entire world grieving while already had many on the planet worshipping Superman as a GODLIKE figure beforehand, and you didn't realize that Batman felt a LITTLE responsible for this to happened? Which was why he stated what he said to Diana that he "failed him in life". All of that wasn't spoon fed to you which you claim as your criticism. It was shown in the actions between Superman and Batman. Once Batman learned the humanity of Superman in all aspects of parental love, romantic love and love for mind kind so much so he was willing to sacrifice it, Batman has regret in being complicit to the death of Superman.

You may not feel it, but I cannot let you get away with the claim that it wasn't shown... or the claim the mother rather tell than show.

 

[MartyMcFly]

I completely disagree with you on this. Or maybe you claim you want more show and less tell yet somehow wasn't paying attention at what was shown.

First let's begin with the infamous "Martha" scene. It was when at near death where Clark said "save Martha...find him" and whatnot, of course Batman saw the obvious connection between both the mother's first names, but it was at that POINT for the first time Batman saw Superman in a humanizing way and not a dangerous alien like he was manipulated into believing. So, his views were already changing knowing that he has a mother and he wasn't going to allow that Martha to be killed like his own mother was killed. Then comes Doomsday. Batman sees not just this alien that he initially had beef with sacrificed himself for this planet, but also sees the woman that loves him lean over grieving. What did you think he was feeling at that moment? That this alien has a mother, he has a woman that loved him, that actually sacrificed himself for the human race.

Then it shows immediately after that the Daily Planet running the story on the death of Superman and how Lex Luthor was behind it all, because guess who's the source., Lois Lane. That paper and the news of everything that actually happened circulated worldwide, the entire world grieving while already had many on the planet worshipping Superman as a GODLIKE figure beforehand, and you didn't realize that Batman felt a LITTLE responsible for this to happened? Which was why he stated what he said to Diana that he "failed him in life". All of that wasn't spoon fed to you which you claim as your criticism. It was shown in the actions between Superman and Batman. Once Batman learned the humanity of Superman in all aspects of parental love, romantic love and love for mind kind so much so he was willing to sacrifice it, Batman has regret in being complicit to the death of Superman.

You may not feel it, but I cannot let you get away with the claim that it wasn't shown... or the claim the mother rather tell than show.

yeah you got a whole lot more out of that than I did. Easily. I don’t mind the Martha scene cause I get what he’s going for. So I agree it’s snowing his humanity there and Bruce says damn okay I’m being a jerk which I said before.

Like I said my issue is execution. For me that’s more telling when referring to your last example of the newspaper article. That’s precisely telling. To truly get from point A to the point B I’m talking about that requires these characters spending more time together on screen. More interactions than what they had. But like @Legal said maybe that shyt just wasn’t possible based on the scope of the movie.

I’m glad it got you there with what was there but for me it didn’t.

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

But like @Legal said maybe that shyt just wasn’t possible based on the scope of the movie.

The problem with @Legal post is that it is all based around information that isn't true. Snyder didn't decide to cut JL down from two movies to one.. he has 4 hours of footage because he did the opposite of what they wanted.. a two hour JL which is impossible to do correctly and if your follow up point to that is "well BvS underperformed.."

That cannot rest on Snyder either because his BvS was well received whereas the theatrical version the studio chopped up was not.. and that is what led to the drop off from the opening at the box office..

All the wrong decisions fall on what the studio execs were doing.. tryna fast track the whole thing. Snyder was doing the opposite of that with his vision.

 

[gluvnast]

Makes perfect sense, though. You're acting like everything has to be an absolute, and throwing absolutely everything at the feet of WB execs. Snyder had responsibility for the failure, too. Because, as I remember it, the decision to trim Justice League down to one movie came after BvS underperformed.

Also, liking a movie doesn't automatically make it good. We've all got movies that we enjoy that we know aren't actually good movies. And just because a movie is improved doesn't necessarily mean that it's good. It just means that it's better than it used to be.

BvS had to introduce Batman, give him a reason he would've had reason to dislike Superman in the first place, along with establish develop the Superman character enough to make his death significant, introduce and develop Lux Luthor as a central antagonist, introduce Wonder Woman, introduce at least the general concept of the Justice League, throw out the general notion of Steppenwolf/Darkseid, along with establish that Luthor wasn't as crazy as the audience is lead to believe he is. Not to mention that it also had to introduce a threat powerful enough to kill Superman.

It's not a hot take to say that that's too much to ask a director to cover in one movie. And some of Snyder's choices reflect that as well. The movie takes the time to kill the Waynes onscreen again at the beginning, but Batman's existence up to that point is basically summed up by the movie as "he's seen some shyt, man" and trying to hint at other details. The most interesting thing it offered up on his backstory is the Robin armor chilling in the Batcave.

And my argument wasn't that they didn't need extra minutes, it's that the solution to making these movies good can't be just to make it longer every single time. Eventually, someone needs to realize that the solution is just to make a better movie overall.

But I will agree that at the heart of the issue with the DCEU as a whole was that WB tried to skip to the end where grossing a billion is a normal occurrence. In my opinion, BvS shouldn't have happened at that point, simply because jumping straight to that from Man of Steel would inevitably end up with an overstuffed movie.

Here are the two issues at hand between Snyder and WB: Creative control versus corporate oversight. I hate the MCU comparison because the truth of the matter is that there is little to no creative control inside Marvel Studios. That said, Disney allows Marvel to be free in how they want to do their films, largely because Marvel even before the Disney acquisition been successful. But none of the FILMMAKERS that are assigned to whatever film they are assigned to have any true creative control. Kevin Feige runs an assembly line to which everything have to go by him for approval, and anything that goes against what he wants, they get replaced in a heartbeat. That doesn't go without saying Marvel the company never has conflicts. The whole Marvel TV vs the actual MCU was a whole conflict and control factor to the point that Marvel TV is no longer an actual thing, due to falling success. It tried and fail to connect with the MCU and now all the old Marvel TV shows both from primetime and Netflix are now retconned not to be canon. So it happens.

Back to Snyder and WB. I recall back in 2013, after Man of Steel, WB wanted Christopher Nolan to be the "godfather" of the DCEU. It wasn't yet officially called the DCEU, but they wanted to jumpstart it immediately after Man of Steel and have Nolan play the Kevin Feige role. Nolan refused. You see, people forgotten that Man of Steel wasn't even Zack Snyder's movie OR VISION. It was David Goyer's idea, vision and story. He pitched it to Nolan and Nolan refused to direct it because it wasn't his style, but was the one who PERONSALLY HIRED ZACK SNYDER to direct it. that's a key thing to understand. The only reason Zack Snyder was ever a part of this was because of Christopher Nolan wanting him to direct. And Nolan was the chief overseer of the film. Because of Nolan's clout with WB, WB never got in the middle of it, they trusted Nolan. Had Nolan ACCEPTED the godfather Kevin Feige role, I strongly believe WB wouldn't of been meddling and interfering and messing up anything of anyone's films of the DCEU, especially Snyder's, because they would of trusted Nolan who would of gave the final say about this and that. But because Nolan refused, and WB was both greedy and disgruntled because they wanted immediate billion dollar grossing blockbusters out the gate (not understanding that Avengers was the MCU's first billion dollar grossing movie)... they interfered with Snyder's films all the way back with BvS. I remember BvS was initially supposed to be a two parter with Dawn of Justice being part II, and the WB execs made Snyder to put all that in together which is why it looked like the Justice League set up appeared shoehorned. Then they messed up David Ayer's Suicide Squad movie. The initial trailers wasn't anything like the final product which as it turned out was re-edited by so-called music video editors. The only film they left alone that had Snyder's involvement was Wonder Woman and that's mostly because it was completed beforehand. But even with that, they poorly tried to promote it. They put a late AF embargo on it until to their shock the reviews were positive. So, WB been meddling and messing things up and mainly because they didn't have anyone to oversee the DCEU and didn't trust Snyder to be that person.

 

[MartyMcFly]

The problem with @Legal post is that it is all based around information that isn't true. Snyder didn't decide to cut JL down from two movies to one.. he has 4 hours of footage because he did the opposite of what they wanted.. a two hour JL which is impossible to do correctly and if your follow up point to that is "well BvS underperformed.."

That cannot rest on Snyder either because his BvS was well received whereas the theatrical version the studio chopped up was not.. and that is what led to the drop off from the opening at the box office..

All the wrong decisions fall on what the studio execs were doing.. tryna fast track the whole thing. Snyder was doing the opposite of that with his vision.

No he’s making the point about it being too much for one person. I don’t care about all the shyt around it. His point is true regardless of what happened in the background. That’s too much for one person and way too much for one movie.

I’m not going to excuse the movie because of that. I just understand it’s really fukking tough to do for any person and definitely for one movie no matter how long it is.

I feel for Snyder or anyone in that position. It’s too fukking much

 

[Saysumthinfunnymike]

Yeah I know. But that doesn’t change the ending emotionally which is my point.

if you’re building your story to this point where this hardened crime fighter has a come to Jesus moment then I need to see that. The movie told rather than show which is a cardinal sin in movies.

i didn't see it that way.. the movie shows you that Bruce was once a good man.. a hero.. but is teetering on the edge. Alfred's words about turning a good man cruel. Robin shown to be deceased. The kryptonians blowing up the city and Bruce losing loved ones in the disaster..

And the worst part is Bruce feels completely helpless to it all. He used to be the guy. But he doesn't give up.. he finds the solution. Problem is he spent all the time researching how to stop the alien but no time figuring out who the alien is and if the alien can be an ally.

When Superman is there helpless calling out to his mother that is where the connection is born. That is where he realizes the two have a lot more in common that he previously thought.. it's a story of two heroes finding their way and coming closer for the common goal.

 

[MartyMcFly]

i didn't see it that way.. the movie shows you that Bruce was once a good man.. a hero.. but is teetering on the edge. Alfred's words about turning a good man cruel. Robin shown to be deceased. The kryptonians blowing up the city and Bruce losing loved ones in the disaster..

And the worst part is Bruce feels completely helpless to it all. He used to be the guy. But he doesn't give up.. he finds the solution. Problem is he spent all the time researching how to stop the alien but no time figuring out who the alien is and if the alien can be an ally.

When Superman is there helpless calling out to his mother that is where the connection is born. That is where he realizes the two have a lot more in common that he previously thought.. it's a story of two heroes finding their way and coming closer for the common goal.

That’s fair. Like I said that’s not how it hit me at all. Still doesn’t hit me that way after several viewings. I think with more room to breathe for that particular conflict then I’m good. But as it stands? Meh. Then I let it go and started looking forward to the Batman

 

[Jello Biafra]

this whole "meddling" shyt can be overblown too. There's good meddling and bad. This was a clear case of bad. Cats act like producers don't meddle with films all the time. To think that Feige hasn't done it is kinda delusional. On his end though, he has the benefit of the doubt.

Yeah it usually comes down to is it a creative person who is meddling because he wants to make sure a movie fits the overall vision he has or a bunch of suits who meddle because they think their MBAs make them smarter than creative people.