Official JOKER Thread (SPOILERS)

TheGodling

TheGodling

Los Ingobernables de Sala de Cine
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
20,078
Reputation
5,615
Daps
70,586
Reppin
Rotterdam
re'up said:
If able, can we discuss the odd framing and political themes running through the movie? The movie itself may not even merit these discussions, but these bits stood out to me

*Thomas Wayne is obviously a very overblown parable of a Bill De Blasio or Bloomberg liberal, the man is depicted as an absolute villain, he is practically foaming at the mouth, (the bathroom scene) or cackling with "coastal elite" disdain (the interview scene), and adds lines like "I'm just trying to help you", with a sneering contempt.

*The Occupy Wall Street movement is clearly satirized with the clown "Kill The Rich", scenes, to what extent does the director portray the violent, angry, murderous mob? He doesn't seem to have the sympathy of the poor in mind, to say the least.

*Taken with some of Phillips comments in recent profiles, about the "far left" and "cancel culture", does this add up to anything?
Click to expand...
I disagree about Wayne. He is presented as somewhat out of touch but at the same time:

even if the stock brokers, his employees, were a$$holes, they were still murdered in cold blood. In the bathroom scene he reacted as he did realizing Arthur was the one who came to their mansion and formed a possible danger to his son. Plus on top of that he was confronted with the past of the deluded woman and her son being just as deluded.

Rather than presenting him as the people's savior they depicted Thomas Wayne's relationship with the citizens of Gotham in a very modern (and complex) light of a liberal elite who does not really understand the struggles of the people, while people do not relate to him either since they believe they are looked down upon by this elite class who supposedly know things better, and most certainly do not want to be told that their own behavior is part of the problem, and much rather blame everyone but themselves (pretty much the MAGA crowd).
 
CreepyMcCreeperson

CreepyMcCreeperson

Veteran
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
33,853
Reputation
7,968
Daps
183,408
Besides the pain in the ass water buffalos that kept talking....

:ehh:

I agree with everyone saying it’s less incel, and more abused mental illness that boils over from his life circumstances. I didn’t believe he was adopted, because I thought he inherited the mental illness from his mother.

In the beginning, and through the middle, I definitely was on board with the incel sympathy angle, but once we realized he imagined the entire relationship with Zazzie, I was,
:dwillhuh:

I think we have the theme of folks being sick and tired of being sick and tired. And it was interesting to see how Gotham descended into a crime ridden city, due to the lack of economic opportunity, and people feeling forgotten.

The interesting part about that is, currently, both sides feel they are being forgotten, so I don’t know who that portion will speak louder to.

Overall, I thought it was excellent. And I could tell the theater wanted to laugh at certain parts, but they felt they couldn’t. Like the dwarf needing a killer to open the lock on the door. People were really empathizing with Arthur, despite his violence.

So if you still want to go with the mass shooter empathy angle, they usually get the mental illness label.
 
R

re'up

Veteran
Joined
May 26, 2012
Messages
20,284
Reputation
6,121
Daps
63,703
Reppin
San Diego
@TheGodling

The framing of Gotham elites clad in black tuxes, no less, watching (I think a movie from the 30's, per the New Yorker review, which I am not familiar with, called "Master Class), then brutally assaulting Joker, is pretty direct to me. Not to mention his first words are "Do you want an autograph or something"? And the interview, "You will always be clowns to me". The "forgotten people" is to me, a not so subtle nod to the Trump voters, though Phillips is perhaps equally damning of them, rabid violence and murder. Yet, the problem, in his rendering, is the failure of the officials.

Now, the messaging is mixed to be sure, and whether deliberate, or sloppiness, (cover all bases) I can't tell, but I don't think the nuance is there to give any relief to the Wayne character, he's presented as entirely unlikable, and unworthy of sympathy, even in the scene where he and his wife are murdered. It's so over the top, it was actually laughable to be, he was practically Scrooge McDuck. I get that the nuance in a comic book movie of all things, is going to be sledge hammer heavy, remember Nolan's hamfisted critique of torture techniques?

I don't think Phillips knew what he wanted to say, or cared, but I do think he has deep contempt for "liberal" politics, or at least "coastal liberalism".
 
Last edited:
TheGodling

TheGodling

Los Ingobernables de Sala de Cine
Joined
May 21, 2013
Messages
20,078
Reputation
5,615
Daps
70,586
Reppin
Rotterdam
@re'up my point still stands that Wayne is an out-of-touch elite, which does not make him a bad guy but simply a man who could never fit the role he presented himself as. Arthur is right about the 'clowns' comment as being derogatory but at the same time he does not understand that the kids who stole his sign or the coworker who pretty much made sure to get him fired are precisely the 'clowns' that Wayne is referring to. There is no correct side in this fight, but only one side actually aspires to make a change while the other just breeds further in its brokenness.
 
Jacaveli The Don

Jacaveli The Don

Superstar
Joined
May 22, 2015
Messages
4,393
Reputation
940
Daps
19,732
Reppin
#NarcissistGang
Couple of things I noticed;

For the people who were saying "Joker's name isn't Arthur Fleck"

He IS Joker

He was adopted after being abandoned, his adopted mother gave him the name Arthur so he really doesnt know his real name

The way he puts his fingers to his mouth and spreads the blood across his lips/mouth right towards the end when he is on top of the police car leaves a mark which looks exactly like the Batman symbol

Overall, it was a good movie, Joaquin will most likely win the Best Actor Oscar and the film should win a few more e.g. Best Cinematography, Best Score, etc
 
ogc163

ogc163

Superstar
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
9,027
Reputation
2,150
Daps
22,318
Reppin
Bronx, NYC
re'up said:
If able, can we discuss the odd framing and political themes running through the movie? The movie itself may not even merit these discussions, but these bits stood out to me

*Thomas Wayne is obviously a very overblown parable of a Bill De Blasio or Bloomberg liberal, the man is depicted as an absolute villain, he is practically foaming at the mouth, (the bathroom scene) or cackling with "coastal elite" disdain (the interview scene), and adds lines like "I'm just trying to help you", with a sneering contempt.

*The Occupy Wall Street movement is clearly satirized with the clown "Kill The Rich", scenes, to what extent does the director portray the violent, angry, murderous mob? He doesn't seem to have the sympathy of the poor in mind, to say the least.

*Taken with some of Phillips comments in recent profiles, about the "far left" and "cancel culture", does this add up to anything?
Click to expand...

I think Phillip's comments may lead to some bias by some liberals who are aware of the comments he made. Just finished listening to a review on Slate, and you can tell his comments are influencing their opinions. Given the typical background of movie critics those comments seem to be biting him in the ass with that crowd.

Personally whenever I've seen documentaries on NYC in the late 70's and 80's I'm consistently surprised people didn't revolt against the elite. Especially when you take into consideration the elite in NYC are much more "accessible" for lack of a better word. And so the way the crowd reacted is not hamfisted or over simplified when you take into consideration the time period the film is set in.

Overall the film was great imo, I came in with low expectations. Phoenix was amazing, the music was surprisingly on point.

I've read reviews complaining about nihilism and a lack of hope, but the Joker's character has always been about embodying anarchy and exposing the flaws of shallow but prevalent social systems and norms. It's as though some critics wanted a highly noble anti-hero, who deviates from the system in some ways but still operates within it on its terms.
 
M

momma

All Star
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
1,594
Reputation
200
Daps
5,329
ogc163 said:
I think Phillip's comments may lead to some bias by some liberals who are aware of the comments he made. Just finished listening to a review on Slate, and you can tell his comments are influencing their opinions. Given the typical background of movie critics those comments seem to be biting him in the ass with that crowd.

Personally whenever I've seen documentaries on NYC in the late 70's and 80's I'm consistently surprised people didn't revolt against the elite. Especially when you take into consideration the elite in NYC are much more "accessible" for lack of a better word. And so the way the crowd reacted is not hamfisted or over simplified when you take into consideration the time period the film is set in.

Overall the film was great imo, I came in with low expectations. Phoenix was amazing, the music was surprisingly on point.

I've read reviews complaining about nihilism and a lack of hope, but the Joker's character has always been about embodying anarchy and exposing the flaws of shallow but prevalent social systems and norms. It's as though some critics wanted a highly noble anti-hero, who deviates from the system in some ways but still operates within it on its terms.
Click to expand...

I can't believe some critics are dropping the "but it just isn't FUN" sham of veiled bias in regards to this movie
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top