Official Game of Thrones Season 4 Thread *The North Remembers*(NO SPOILERS!!)

[DonkeyPuncher718]

https://live.facebooklive.com/videos/412/game-of-thrones-nyc-premiere
brehs skip to around the 38 minute mark


so fine...

So we just going to ignore Loras Tyrell at the 47:00 mark acting like he been sniffing more than roses??

 

[Adam3000]

So i thought I understood the whole Jorah betrayal from season one but I'm not sure, so someone school me.

The way I thought it went down was that he sent word back that she was pregnant (he rode off in the night the second she revealedit... how didn't she find that suspicious?) I assumed he was sending word to Varys. But Varys seems to be a Targ supporter judging by his convo with Illyario in the crypts. Robert of course is hell bent on killing the girl. Just before the attempt on her life, Jorah a kid hands him a message and says Varys says he's pardoned and can return home. My question is was that pardon for stopping the assassination (which it seems Varys didn't want) or was it for planning the assassination and Jorah just changed his mind on his own?

I always thought it was for planning the killing. But Varys is TargSet, right? Plus that seemed like an elaborate plan for someone so close to her. He could've come up with an easier, more certain plan, no?

Remember that Viserys was the Targ king, not Dany. I think it is safe to assume that whatever Varys was plotting went to shyt when Viserys was murdered. Plus, he has to keep up his duties and appearances in Kings Landing unless he wants to see his head on a chopping block.

Truthfully no one can tell you exactly what Varys' plan was/is and how it changed. Book readers are waiting on answers just like you are, we just have a few more pieces to thw puzzle. Not enough to clog the plot holes yet though.

As far as Jorah riding off with messages, I dont think that is necessary. I'm pretty sure Varys has his 'little birds' in Essos too and those kids can find a way to get the info secretly. Sometimes a suspension of disbelief is needed for minor things like this.

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

I was so confused about those scenes when I re-watched the show.

I still am

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

As far as Jorah riding off with messages, I dont think that is necessary. I'm pretty sure Varys has his 'little birds' in Essos too and those kids can find a way to get the info secretly. Sometimes a suspension of disbelief is needed for minor things like this.

I was saying right after she revealed her pregnancy he conspicuously rode off in the night... how could she not see he was reporting that to someone?

And I'm not saying it is a plot hole or anything. She showed multiple times throughout that first season that she was a naive little girl (biggest of which was the Khal Drogo 'wound'), I'm just saying...

 

[Adam3000]

I still am

OK, re-reading your actual question I think I can answer it without spoiling anything because I don't think it was meant to be unclear.

The pardon Jorah was given was strictly for spying on Dany. It wasn't for planning the assassination. What I think happened (not a spoiler, this is meant to be deduced by the viewer and I'm not even 100% certain of it) is that when Jorah got his pardon, a light bulb went off in his head and he realized that they were going to kill Dany. He immediately became suspicious of the wine merchant because he had grown to love Dany and wanted to protect her. When he asked the wine merchant to drink the poisoned wine and the merchant hesitated, he knew it was an assassination attempt and thwarted it. I don't think that Jorah was explicitly aware of an assassination order.

I don't think Varys himself had a choice in the matter in sending out the kill order and the Jorah pardon, so Varys' motivations are kind of irrelevant. Like I said, he had to keep up his appearances in King's Landing and if he didn't do that it is likely that his head would wind up in the same bushes that his balls are in.

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

OK, re-reading your actual question I think I can answer it without spoiling anything because I don't think it was meant to be unclear.

The pardon Jorah was given was strictly for spying on Dany. It wasn't for planning the assassination. What I think happened (not a spoiler, this is meant to be deduced by the viewer and I'm not even 100% certain of it) is that when Jorah got his pardon, a light bulb went off in his head and he realized that they were going to kill Dany. He immediately became suspicious of the wine merchant because he had grown to love Dany and wanted to protect her. When he asked the wine merchant to drink the poisoned wine and the merchant hesitated, he knew it was an assassination attempt and thwarted it. I don't think that Jorah was explicitly aware of an assassination order.

I don't think Varys himself had a choice in the matter in sending out the kill order and the Jorah pardon, so Varys' motivations are kind of irrelevant. Like I said, he had to keep up his appearances in King's Landing and if he didn't do that it is likely that his head would wind up in the same bushes that his balls are in.

I don't think they're irrelevant cuz like you said Varys couldn't have stopped the kill order from going out but that doesn't mean he couldn't have warned his 'bird' who's close to her that the order had been issued.

Your interpretation was how I interpreted it during my second viewing (so much went right over head during the first viewing ), but what my latest viewing it seems a bit coincidental that Jorah would receive his reward for a snitch from months ago (judging by Danys belly) the exact same day the attempt is made on his her life.

Varys may not have been able to stop the official kill order from going out, but he could have been the one who actually sent the order out (Remember Ned went straight to him to have it canceled and he told him those birds had flown). Seems just as plausible that right after sending that order he also sent the warning to Jorah. Judging from his convo with dude in the dungeon, I can't believe he'd just be about her and her unborn son being murked. Plus the fact that he didn't choose to use Jorah for the kill order....who

better to use than the person who is that close to her?

I was just wondering if there was anything in the books (which have the freedom to go into more details at various points) that could dispel or strengthen my suspicions without spoiling, of course.

 

[Adam3000]

I don't think they're irrelevant cuz like you said Varys couldn't have stopped the kill order from going out but that doesn't mean he couldn't have warned his 'bird' who's close to her that the order had been issued.

Your interpretation was how I interpreted it during my second viewing (so much went right over head during the first viewing ), but what my latest viewing it seems a bit coincidental that Jorah would rec . eive his reward for a snitch from months ago (judging by Danys belly) the exact same day the attempt is made on his her life.

Varys may not have been able to stop the official kill order from going out, but he could have been the one who actually sent the order out (Remember Ned went straight to him to have it canceled and he told him those birds had flown). Seems just as plausible that right after sending that order he also sent the warning to Jorah. Judging from his convo with dude in the dungeon, I can't believe he'd just be about her and her unborn son being murked. Plus the fact that he didn't choose to use Jorah for the kill order....who

better to use than the person who is that close to her?

I was just wondering if there was anything in the books (which have the freedom to go into more details at various points) that could dispel or strengthen my suspicions without spoiling, of course.

I dont have the books with me to look up the details, but reading a summary it looks like the letter that Jorah received in the market was from Illyrio and it was a warning that Robert had offered a lordship to anyone who killed Dany.

The timing is certainly convenient, but thats common storytelling and falls under the 'suspension of disbelief' banner

I'm not sure exactly what changes the show made, but hopefully that clears up some of your confusion

When I said that Varys' intentions are irrelevant, what I meant was that he had no way to retract Roberta order, thus his saying to Ned that 'those birds have flown.' I'm sure he worked with Illyrio to ensure Jorah stopped the attempt, and they timed it well

 

[Piff Perkins]

So I thought I understood the whole Jorah betrayal from season one but I'm not sure, so someone school me.

The way I thought it went down was that he sent word back that she was pregnant (he rode off in the night the second she revealedit... how didn't she find that suspicious?) I assumed he was sending word to Varys. But Varys seems to be a Targ supporter judging by his convo with Illyario in the crypts. Robert of course is hell bent on killing the girl. Just before the attempt on her life, Jorah a kid hands him a message and says Varys says he's pardoned and can return home. My question is was that pardon for stopping the assassination (which it seems Varys didn't want) or was it for planning the assassination and Jorah just changed his mind on his own?

I always thought it was for planning the killing. But Varys is TargSet, right? Plus that seemed like an elaborate plan for someone so close to her. He could've come up with an easier, more certain plan, no?

Without going into a lot of details...Jorah Mormont fled Westeros as an exile, but learned he could get a pardon if he gave King Robert info on the Targaryen children. Varys is in control of that shyt, so he was in contact with Jorah. Jorah sent the info on Dany being pregnant, and he also sent info on her whereabouts/travel plans. It's also worth noting Varys has full control over the "birds," they do what he wants - not just what the king commands. Just like the CIA does shyt the president doesn't know about.

Finally the day of the hit arrives, but Jorah decides to save Dany instead of let her die. If he hadn't intervened, she would have died.

The boy who gives him the pardon is one of Varys' "little birds"

Varys loses track of her, and now can only rely on rumors; remember in S2 when he told Tyrion that Dany was still alive and a threat with three dragons?

Now rewatch the scene from S1


it's something yall can speculate on, I'll stay out as a book reader. But the answer to your question is yes, that assassination was going to happen if not for Jorah going against the plans (as you saw in the video).

 

[satam55]

I hate the Lannisters, but GOT DAMN y'all gotta admit this joint from the GoT Season 3 soundtrack is:








It's 1 of the best scores for the entire series. It's up there with:

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

I dont have the books with me to look up the details, but reading a summary it looks like the letter that Jorah received in the market was from Illyrio and it was a warning that Robert had offered a lordship to anyone who killed Dany.

The timing is certainly convenient, but thats common storytelling and falls under the 'suspension of disbelief' banner

I'm not sure exactly what changes the show made, but hopefully that clears up some of your confusion

When I said that Varys' intentions are irrelevant, what I meant was that he had no way to retract Roberta order, thus his saying to Ned that 'those birds have flown.' I'm sure he worked with Illyrio to ensure Jorah stopped the attempt, and they timed it well

That's the piece i had never caught before. I had always thought Jorah had just had some sort of epiphany and acted out of honor when he saved the Khaleesi... now I'm starting to think he did so because Varys told him to.

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

Without going into a lot of details...Jorah Mormont fled Westeros as an exile, but learned he could get a pardon if he gave King Robert info on the Targaryen children. Varys is in control of that shyt, so he was in contact with Jorah. Jorah sent the info on Dany being pregnant, and he also sent info on her whereabouts/travel plans. It's also worth noting Varys has full control over the "birds," they do what he wants - not just what the king commands. Just like the CIA does shyt the president doesn't know about.

Finally the day of the hit arrives, but Jorah decides to save Dany instead of let her die. If he hadn't intervened, she would have died.

The boy who gives him the pardon is one of Varys' "little birds"

Varys loses track of her, and now can only rely on rumors; remember in S2 when" he told Tyrion that Dany was still alive and a threat with three dragons?

Now rewatch the scene from S1


it's something yall can speculate on, I'll stay out as a book reader. But the answer to your question is yes, that assassination was going to happen if not for Jorah going against the plans (as you saw in the video).

I must be doing a terrible job articulating this from my phone....my question wasn't IF Jorah had stopped the assassination, it was WHY he stopped the assassination.

After multiple viewings, considering the fact that Varys appears to be on TargSet's side (as evident by the second vid you posted) plus the fact that he knows Jorah is there and he has ties to Jorah, it seems odd to me that he'd just stand pat and let the assassination attempt go through without attempting to thwart it. Since he was likely the one to put the hit out on Robert's behalf, if he really wanted it done, seems he would've asked Jorah to do it....but he doesn't. All that coupled with the fact that Jorah just happened to get his 'pardon' letter the same day the assassination attempt is made makes me believe Jorah was acting on behalf of Varys.


You say Varys lost track of Dany.....what makes you think this????? You quoted the very scene that I'd use as evidence to suggest that Jorah is still feeding him info. Varys tells Tyrion that word from Qarth is that she has three baby dragons. Now that info may not have come from Jorah, but clearly Varys hasn't lost track of her: he knows where she is and that she has dragons.

 

[King Crimson]

Without going into a lot of details...Jorah Mormont fled Westeros as an exile, but learned he could get a pardon if he gave King Robert info on the Targaryen children. Varys is in control of that shyt, so he was in contact with Jorah. Jorah sent the info on Dany being pregnant, and he also sent info on her whereabouts/travel plans. It's also worth noting Varys has full control over the "birds," they do what he wants - not just what the king commands. Just like the CIA does shyt the president doesn't know about.

Finally the day of the hit arrives, but Jorah decides to save Dany instead of let her die. If he hadn't intervened, she would have died.

The boy who gives him the pardon is one of Varys' "little birds"

Varys loses track of her, and now can only rely on rumors; remember in S2 when he told Tyrion that Dany was still alive and a threat with three dragons?

Now rewatch the scene from S1


it's something yall can speculate on, I'll stay out as a book reader. But the answer to your question is yes, that assassination was going to happen if not for Jorah going against the plans (as you saw in the video).

I remember when I rewatched season 1 and that scene gave me pause because it's somewhat ambiguous. I kinda got the feeling that I ought to fall back and either read or wait so I don't screw it up for myself, but truthfully, overthinking it has somewhat led me to possibly spoil it for myself. if that makes any sense.

 

[duck]

As far as Jorah riding off with messages, I dont think that is necessary. I'm pretty sure Varys has his 'little birds' in Essos too and those kids can find a way to get the info secretly. Sometimes a suspension of disbelief is needed for minor things like this.

it might be safe to say Jorah was one of varys' little birds and didnt even know it

 

[The Prince of All Saiyans]

 

[Piff Perkins]

I must be doing a terrible job articulating this from my phone....my question wasn't IF Jorah had stopped the assassination, it was WHY he stopped the assassination.

After multiple viewings, considering the fact that Varys appears to be on TargSet's side (as evident by the second vid you posted) plus the fact that he knows Jorah is there and he has ties to Jorah, it seems odd to me that he'd just stand pat and let the assassination attempt go through without attempting to thwart it. Since he was likely the one to put the hit out on Robert's behalf, if he really wanted it done, seems he would've asked Jorah to do it....but he doesn't. All that coupled with the fact that Jorah just happened to get his 'pardon' letter the same day the assassination attempt is made makes me believe Jorah was acting on behalf of Varys.


You say Varys lost track of Dany.....what makes you think this????? You quoted the very scene that I'd use as evidence to suggest that Jorah is still feeding him info. Varys tells Tyrion that word from Qarth is that she has three baby dragons. Now that info may not have come from Jorah, but clearly Varys hasn't lost track of her: he knows where she is and that she has dragons.

Jorah stopped it on his own accord, because he fell in love with Dany/didn't want her to die. The assassination was about to go down as you saw, as planned. I know some people earlier said Jorah never knew they were gonna try to kill Dany but let's be real...he was giving her exact location to King Robert, who hates the Targaryens with a passion. He knew what he was doing. But after awhile he fell in love with her and decided to reject the pardon, and thwart the assassination. That was his decision.

Jorah was Varys' inside man. Once Jorah flipped, Varys no longer had direct intel on her. Sure I'd imagine he could get some little birds within a mile of her, but after Jorah flipped she was out of Varys' direct reach. He knows she was in Qarth for instance, but he doesn't precise details like he did when Jorah was helping him.

It's hard to discuss this tho. But I will say this: in a couple years you'll re-watch that scene of Varys and Illyrio talking and wonder how you missed the answer, which was right in that scene all along.