Official Game of Thrones Season 4 Thread *The North Remembers*(NO SPOILERS!!)

[Adam3000]

Demonic is clearly a word describing something inherently evil

I think we all are well aware by now that there is nothing inherently evil about anything that is going on in this world. Everything deserves perspective.
Not a plot spoiler, more of a reflection of perspectives using Melisandre's words and viewpoints. Still, not kosher for a spoiler-free thread:

Spoiler

If the Red God and his magic are evil, then logically the White Walkers must be good since they are two sides to the same coin from what I gather. See how this doesn't work? Calling blood magic demonic isn't fair to the reality of the world

 

[Adam3000]

Furthermore, what innocent sacrifices has Stannis made to the Red God? I know of exactly zero.

 

[beanz]

Furthermore, what innocent sacrifices has Stannis made to the Red God? I know of exactly zero.

well renly wasnt innocent but he used his blood magic for kin killing which is evil and immoral in any religion. plus the fact he was even considering burning his nephew. davos knows him better than anyone and if davos took gendry away is because davos knows stannis was going to do it. that would be 2 kin killings for his red god. not a good look to me. i dont think ned would approve lol.

what u say about whether its evil or not is true tho.

 

[daze23]

Demonic is clearly a word describing something inherently evil

well here on the coli it's half-a-joke created by @Mr. Somebody

blood magic is generally frowned upon in medieval fantasy. plus the 'fire god' sounds like Satan or some shyt. I understand that's really not the context in this story, but never the less it makes for easy jokes

and sacrificing your own (unwilling) kin sounds pretty 'evil' regardless

I wonder if we'll find out what, if any, is the underlying 'truth' to the religions and magic in this universe

 

[Mr. Somebody]

well here on the coli it's half-a-joke created by @Mr. Somebody

Theres nothing funny about the demonic realm, friend. Unless of course you have to laugh to keep from crying.



Its so demonic, friends.

 

[beanz]

 

[Black Magisterialness]

Thank You for my new Avy Breh



Breh you havent been paying attention @satam55 posted this video about Stannis already but you must have missed it


You cant watch this video and still hate Stannis it's IMPOSSIBLE like her I blame HBO for fukking up Stannis character he really should be looked at like Ned Stark was.

Watching season 1 again I'm watching Ned movements and demeanor someone please tell me what is the diffrence between Ned and Stannis? When you look at their character and what they believe in they are the SAME EXACT PERSON. I dont understand the hate for Stannis here wait I do HBO directors

Nah breh, the reason why you can't is because Stannis is all about duty but he takes it too far. Blackwater was an even worse slaughter in the books than it was in the show and Stannis still lead his men to death. Also he wasn't above using black magic and shyt to forward his cause. Ned on the other hand was all about JUSTICE...two different things DUTY(or in Stannis' case SUCCESSION)/JUSTICE. Ned are all about doing what you feel is right even if that means a harder path. Stannis is all about his "right", his "throne", his "destiny". He doesn't give two shyts about whats the best course of action for Westeros, everywhere you turn he's doing some shyt out of spite and bitterness for Robert and the royal court. Killing kids/siblings. Complaining about how Renly got Storm's End even though the next in line for the throne TRADITIONALLY lived on Dragonstone....

Stannis is played good as fukk in the series, you aren't supposed to like Stannis. In fact, IN WESTEROS no one likes Stannis. Its really hard to be unlikeable ALL THE TIME. I mean look at how the actor plays him, he looks just aloof and uncomfortable at all times. The most at ease you see Stannis is RIGHT BEFORE Blackwater, like it was said Stannis is a great general, terrible leader of men.

 

[DonkeyPuncher718]

i cant front, stannis is a very dutiful man and would make a fair and just king. but the difference between him and ned is that when renly told ned to kidnap the kids and take joffrey away from the queen, ned said no but stannis wouldnt even need to be told that. even the convo u put, ned told the queen so she could take the kids away, stannis would have imprisoned the queen and probably told robert so they could both hang the b*stard kids and jamie lannister. stannis is a different type of honorable. ned is like scarface. "women and kids " and stannis is like marlo stanfield "women, kids, the dogs and the fish ".

i read the books so it isnt the show that has me feeling that way, its him putting a hex on robb, killing his brother renly, burning people alive for this new demon god and forsaking the gods he was named under, and even thinking about sacrificing his own nephew to the flames. ned wouldnt have done none of that shyt so u cant say they are the same guy.

First off to the homie @Adam3000 for breaking it down before I could get in here

According to the laws of westeros is that not Justice? Lets say Robert never died and found out the truth about the kids knowing what you know about Robert Baratheon you dont think he would have caved Joffrey,Tommen,Mycella chest in with his warhammer his goddamn self? Would it have been more honorable that way? Once Robert would have found out AINT NO WAY IN WESTEROS THEM CHILDREN WOULD HAVE BEEN SPARED. You see what they did to Roberts b*stards why would the Lannister children be exempt? Play favoritism in a merciless world brehs

Now to your other point about the Black Magic shyt let me play devils advocate here was it blood magic that killed Rob or was it Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey taking advantage of the young wolf and breaking the number 1 rule at the time of the land or are you going to tell me that god works in mysterious ways?

You also say you read the books. I really cant understand your feelings on Stannis breh you should know better

 

[DonkeyPuncher718]

Nah breh, the reason why you can't is because Stannis is all about duty but he takes it too far. Blackwater was an even worse slaughter in the books than it was in the show and Stannis still lead his men to death. Also he wasn't above using black magic and shyt to forward his cause. Ned on the other hand was all about JUSTICE...two different things DUTY(or in Stannis' case SUCCESSION)/JUSTICE. Ned are all about doing what you feel is right even if that means a harder path. Stannis is all about his "right", his "throne", his "destiny". He doesn't give two shyts about whats the best course of action for Westeros, everywhere you turn he's doing some shyt out of spite and bitterness for Robert and the royal court. Killing kids/siblings. Complaining about how Renly got Storm's End even though the next in line for the throne TRADITIONALLY lived on Dragonstone....

Stannis is played good as fukk in the series, you aren't supposed to like Stannis. In fact, IN WESTEROS no one likes Stannis. Its really hard to be unlikeable ALL THE TIME. I mean look at how the actor plays him, he looks just aloof and uncomfortable at all times. The most at ease you see Stannis is RIGHT BEFORE Blackwater, like it was said Stannis is a great general, terrible leader of men.

Like everyone keeps bringing up Renly but lets keep it 100 if you always did the right thing followed your big brother even though you didnt agree with him through thick and thin he shyts on you yet you still keep it 100 with the fam when by all laws in westeros there is A CLEAR fukkING LINE OF SUCCESSION OLDEST-YOUNGEST your brother chooses to ignore that is given land that SHOULD HAVE gone to you and is now telling you "yeah I know about the rules fukk YOU AND THE RULES" something that you lived your life by, you see him and tell him "listen this aint right what you doing.Strike your banners claim allegiance and I will make sure if I dont have a son the the realm will pass on to you otherwise you going to get that work" your younger brother who NEVER HELD A SWORD IN HIS fukkING LIFE basically laughs in your face eats a peach and calls you a fukking HAM you telling me you going to let this shyt slide? Yall hung up on the way Renly died but ignore the fact HE DESERVED TO DIE FOR THAT fukkING BETRAYAL blood magic or not.

Let me guess you would rather Stannis saw him on the field and they had a one on one? Seriously do you really think Renly would stand a chance against Stannis in the field?

Nyggas want it one way it dont work that way when you break the rules all bets are off thats what I think about in regards to what Stannis did to Renly

 

[beanz]

First off to the homie @Adam3000 for breaking it down before I could get in here

According to the laws of westeros is that not Justice? Lets say Robert never died and found out the truth about the kids knowing what you know about Robert Baratheon you dont think he would have caved Joffrey,Tommen,Mycella chest in with his warhammer his goddamn self? Would it have been more honorable that way? Once Robert would have found out AINT NO WAY IN WESTEROS THEM CHILDREN WOULD HAVE BEEN SPARED. You see what they did to Roberts b*stards why would the Lannister children be exempt? Play favoritism in a merciless world brehs

Now to your other point about the Black Magic shyt let me play devils advocate here was it blood magic that killed Rob or was it Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey taking advantage of the young wolf and breaking the number 1 rule at the time of the land or are you going to tell me that god works in mysterious ways?

You also say you read the books. I really cant understand your feelings on Stannis breh you should know better

stannis is all about duty, but he is an at all costs kind of guy. if he has to kill his own mother to get what is his by right, he will do it. thats the reason why even in the books nobody likes him. he doesnt show any bend in his nature and has no friends because of it. even tho its a merciless world, these are human beings and they have to show some kind of compassion and stannis has none. stannis would have been the type of king that people have no love for and are only loyal to when it suits them because he inspires no love or loyalty. there is no reason to believe stannis wouldnt end up like the mad king only instead of varys and pycelle he would have melisandre in his ear talking about "burn this guy burn that guy and burn their kids"

u say robert would have killed those kids too but that wouldnt have been right either. robert himself wasnt as honorable as ned either. remember the backstory is that when tywin had the mountain smash rhaegar's kids heads into the wall and rape and murder princess elia, ned was outraged and disgusted but robert let it slide. thats what made ned stop fukking with robert for a while. even after all the bullshyt the lannisters pulled, robert still married cersei and let jamie stay on the kingsguard and put the kingdom in debt to the lannisters. ned would have sent jamie to the wall and sent tywin back to casterly rock banished from kings landing.

ned was all about doing the right thing even at the cost of his own honor. proof of that is the fact he died lying and naming himself a traitor just to save his daughter's life. stannis woulda went out there spitting like tupac and screaming fukk the world joffrey is a b*stard of incest. that woulda been thoro and im sure ned would have done it if he knew he was gonna get killed anyway but he wanted to save his daughter's life. stannis would have sacrificed shireens life without hesitation.

as far as robb's death, it was tywin and the freys but the red god does work in mysterious ways. if i put a hex on u to die in 3 days and in 3 days u get hit by a bus, yea u can blame the bus driver but u cant say my hex didnt work.

 

[obarth]

I can see that viewpoint. I just dont feel how people tryna act like I'm crazy here. Like dude below.



Bruh, its a war. Who the hell was Robert Baratheon to make demands to the North when he needed their alliance to win? Why couldn't Ned Stark have said "I'll help you get your revenge on the Targs but, I want the North to become Independent?" Why not? Who do you think had more leverage here? A 14 year old kid telling a royal family ALREADY on the throne that he was seceding from the Kingdom.....or The North telling the Usurper who needed their men to win that if he wanted their help, he was gonna let The North be independent What could have Robert Baratheon have done? Walked away mad and left 50,000 men on the table. No, he needed them. That's leverage.



The logical reason to be independent was what the Northern lords said to Robb. They bent the knee because of DRAGONS. They bent the knee only to the TARGARYENS. Before that, nobody could get past the Twins without getting their heads smashed in. It was too fukkin cold to war up there. The North was unconquerable. Its said over and over nobody can hold The North. So if the Dragons are dead, and House Targaryen was destroyed, what reason was there for The North to follow another royal family. A royal family that can't really force their rule on The North because the only people who ever did so were those who had Dragons. See how the Dragon thing keeps coming up



Im using what Greatjon Umber said, because its a sentiment the entire North shares. The idea that "we only surrendered because the Targs had dragons" didn't pop up in their heads in the last 20 years Its been there. And to me, it doesn't seem true to the characters to have that golden opportunity to secede........now that both the Dragons were gone and the family that conquered them were gone.........yet they decided not to. It would have been more realistic to have that idea be brought up in discussion but, for Ned Stark to reject it, rather than saying the idea never came to the Northern lords at all. That's unrealistic as hell. I brought it up here because it was a discussion on this same topic over on the ASOIAF forums: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78221-ned-stark-really-had-no-ambition/

Who said Robert demanded the throne? You obviously ignored my post because I answered this, plus the book answers it. There was discussion on who would rule and besides the fact he led the rebellion, Robert had the legal claim. If you can find evidence of Robert "making demands of the North", please feel free. Ned and the North joined forces with Robert willingly.

You keep saying it doesn't seem true to the characters when obviously the only character you're using is a 20 year older Greatjon Umber. Yet you're conveniently ignoring the character we know the most about in the situation: Ned Stark. It seems true to Ned's character (the only one whose opinion means anything in this situation) for him to break centuries of service to the crown as well as put his best friend on the spot like that? Ned not only didn't want to be Hand of the King but refused to be Regent when Robert died, but he was going to be King of his own country? That's true to his character?You're arguing for arguments sake and basing your argument on what happened 20 years after the event. "It's a sentiment the entire North shares"...says who? The entire population of the North spent their entire lives as part of the Seven Kingdoms. The same goes for generations before. Greatjon was citing history, not some deep seeded urge that every northmen shared. In fact, before Greatjon swayed everyone towards the King of the North, the lords that were debated contemplated siding with either Stannis or Renly, or just staying out of it. Clearly this wasn't some sentiment the entire North shared.

Again, what is the motivation for the North to secede? Your point about the dragons is not motivation but opportunity. What reason would the North have to secede after they just annihilated their cause for rebelling and put someone they trusted on the Throne? Rebellion is a serious thing that you don't do lightly. Lets say Ned demands the North and Robert takes offense to that? What makes you think Ned and his forces are even making it out of King's Landing? And lets say they wait until they get home to secede; a major flaw in some of y'alls thinking is assuming that everyone is just going to walk North and get stuck in the bogs or stuck at the Twins. There are these things called ships that they could use to circumvent all of that. Now what happens when the other six kingdoms have ships coming out of Lannisport, Oldtown, Gulltown, etc with one destination in mind?

The circumstances that led to them rebelling under Robb were completely different. Robert is dead, the king has killed Ned Stark and holds Sansa and Arya hostage. Renly and Stannis are challenging Joffrey's succession. In that situation, we have opportunity and motivation. Not to mention we have a young kid in Robb Stark that's able to be swayed by his older bannerman and probably has a little thirst for glory anyway.

And how are you gonna cite a thread called "Ned Stark has no ambition" and really try and argue this? Your answer is the thread title.

 

[BonafideDefacto]

Stannis in the show is exactly to me like he is in the books
I've never thought anything of dude beyond who he is
He's driven by what he feels is his,
the throne
But that said
He is a good commander as noted
but
He lacks personality and charisma
But his men dont follow him for that
They follow him because he is a great field general and the type that will man a foxhole on the front-lines next to yours
This despite him seeming like a bitter old man suffering from 'Lonely Soldier' syndrome

He is currently the rightful king persey
as a King I think he would be Harsh, but fair
soldiers would respect him but I dont think the people would love him
and based on what I've read I don't believe he was blind to the 'Political' side of things which is why he bounced from kings landing.
You can choose to play the game or choose not to
I respect Stannis but I don't rep him cause of 2 reasons

1. House Stark all day

&

Anybody can have a claim to the throne, either by blood or by spilling blood.

​

 

[beanz]

Like everyone keeps bringing up Renly but lets keep it 100 if you always did the right thing followed your big brother even though you didnt agree with him through thick and thin he shyts on you yet you still keep it 100 with the fam when by all laws in westeros there is A CLEAR fukkING LINE OF SUCCESSION OLDEST-YOUNGEST your brother chooses to ignore that is given land that SHOULD HAVE gone to you and is now telling you "yeah I know about the rules fukk YOU AND THE RULES" something that you lived your life by, you see him and tell him "listen this aint right what you doing.Strike your banners claim allegiance and I will make sure if I dont have a son the the realm will pass on to you otherwise you going to get that work" your younger brother who NEVER HELD A SWORD IN HIS fukkING LIFE basically laughs in your face eats a peach and calls you a fukking HAM you telling me you going to let this shyt slide? Yall hung up on the way Renly died but ignore the fact HE DESERVED TO DIE FOR THAT fukkING BETRAYAL blood magic or not.

Let me guess you would rather Stannis saw him on the field and they had a one on one? Seriously do you really think Renly would stand a chance against Stannis in the field?

Nyggas want it one way it dont work that way when you break the rules all bets are off thats what I think about in regards to what Stannis did to Renly

renly was wrong all the way. if renly would have just got together with stannis they would already be sitting on the throne and all the lannisters heads would be on spikes, but renly was a little homo with dreams of being king even tho it wasnt his turn. so fukk him for that.

that still doesnt condone killing ur own brother thru blood magic. he SHOULD have met him in the open field like a man. he could have sliced renly up like u say but instead he let melisandre convince him to do blood magic.

 

[Adam3000]

Beanz you makin some crazy assumptions for what Stannis 'would' do as a reason to hate him. They are all just assumptions, most of which I dont even agree with anyway

 

[Black Magisterialness]

Like everyone keeps bringing up Renly but lets keep it 100 if you always did the right thing followed your big brother even though you didnt agree with him through thick and thin he shyts on you yet you still keep it 100 with the fam when by all laws in westeros there is A CLEAR fukkING LINE OF SUCCESSION OLDEST-YOUNGEST your brother chooses to ignore that is given land that SHOULD HAVE gone to you and is now telling you "yeah I know about the rules fukk YOU AND THE RULES" something that you lived your life by, you see him and tell him "listen this aint right what you doing.Strike your banners claim allegiance and I will make sure if I dont have a son the the realm will pass on to you otherwise you going to get that work" your younger brother who NEVER HELD A SWORD IN HIS fukkING LIFE basically laughs in your face eats a peach and calls you a fukking HAM you telling me you going to let this shyt slide? Yall hung up on the way Renly died but ignore the fact HE DESERVED TO DIE FOR THAT fukkING BETRAYAL blood magic or not.

This is all wrong. When Robert took the throne he had NO Heirs meaning Stannis was next in line meaning being a Dragonstone was DUTY. And Storms End was given to Renly because he was the next Baratheon in line. Now Renly was dumb as fukk for getting froggy with Stannis. But this whole butthurt Stannis shyt is why he's so unlikeable. Renly was gassed up by the Tyrells, he woulda never did that shyt on his own.