OFFICIAL Game of Holmes Season 8 Thread - A Dream of Flat Tops 4/14/19
- Thread starter Jax
- Start date
you weren’t asking me but 1-4 is the general consensus
And personal opinion is that Seasons 1-6 of Game of Thrones is the greatest tv show of all time, a lot of the storylines in season 5 were weaker than the rest but it ends extremely strong and 6 was great too
The writing for Sansa and Arya in season 6 was nonsensical when any kind of scrutiny is applied to their motivations and decisions. They did things because the plot demanded they do them, not because it followed from previous characterization or made sense within the flow of the story.
This "make characters do x and y because the plot needs them to do z" writing is one of the defining hallmarks of character writing in 7 and 8 and why it was so bad. But Sansa and Arya are the easiest examples to show it was prevalent in season 6 too. Littlefinger is the easiest example for season 5. And it can be argued that the flanderization of Tyrion started in season 6 with his awful politics/leadership/tactics mixed with on the nose awful "If I ever do that again, punch me in the face" - "I drink and I know things" - "because you have no cock" dialogue.
People were giving them the benefit of the doubt as it was airing and juelzing to try and make sense of the characters, coming up with theories to explain what they were doing. But in hindsight, it's easy to see it was just the same ole shytty D&D writing that they employed to an even greater extent down the stretch with the shortened seasons.
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I didn't want to go here because I dont feel like typing but you brought up Tyrion
Tyrion's and arguably the show's downfall actually begins in season 4 when Tyrion kills Shae in self defense. Then the Tysha story is completely thrown away
In the book Tyrion murders Shae in cold blood. She didn't attack him first. Why the change? Because D&D clearly didn't want Tyrion to look like a bad person. This type of favoritism was the beginning of the end for the show
When Jamie frees Tyrion he asks Jamie if Tysha was really a whore. Jamie confesses that no Tysha wasn't a whore and was truly in love with Tyrion. This enrages Tyrion and in that moment he HATES Jamie. But of course you can't have Tyrion despise Jamie because you need the fan service reunion
Tyrion asks Tywin where Tysha is and Tywin responds "
nikka i don't know. Wherever whores go" Tyrion shoots Tywin. Tyrion didn't kill Tywin over Shae. He knew what Shae was about. He killed Tywin over Tysha. The Tysha situation is a foundational piece of who Tyrion is as a personI normally can find a way to justify writer changes but the attempt to make Tyrion a good guy is the domino that took down the entire show
This is why by the time you get to season 8 Tyrion is meandering around with nothing to do, repeating lines from season 1
R.E.N. Spells Ren
Veteran
You didn’t name any specific examples, tho.
Those issues you did name aren’t the gripes I have with season 7/8.
daemonova
hit it, & I didn't go Erykah Badu crazy, #yallmad
if that is what the Martin outline had him do, you can't blame him for that, just like Sansa being the littlefinger surrogate
You didn’t name any specific examples, tho.
Those issues you did name aren’t the gripes I have with season 7/8.
Why did Sansa withhold info about the army of the vale? What are her specific reasons?
Why did Arya end one episode in hiding, preparing for a face changing assassin to come for her, and end the next episode waltzing around in broad daylight with no care in the world only to be surprised by a face changing assassin coming for her?
Nonsensical character writing where characters got forced into their end games despite it not making sense why or how they got there were gripes most people seemed to have with 7/8. "We need Dany to lose a dragon, so lets have Tyrion appeal to Cersei and come up with a stupid plan to try to steal zombies to convince her of a truce, we need Varys to betray her, so lets him have suspect her of madness for absolutely zero reason, we need Dany to lose another dragon, so lets have her kind of forget about the Iron Fleet."
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Every show I consider GOAT level I've watched back a minimum of 3-4 times. Even shows in the next level down I've re-watched once or twice straight through.
Legit have not re-watched GOT beginning to end once and probably never will tbh. It's wild how Bad they fumbled the bag at the end,
Legit have not re-watched GOT beginning to end once and probably never will tbh. It's wild how Bad they fumbled the bag at the end,
daemonova
hit it, & I didn't go Erykah Badu crazy, #yallmad
I believe the whole "Waif" story line was Arya fighting herself, how you portray that on screen was gonna be crazy anyway. Sansa didn't trust Jon, because Jon wasn't smart enough to be trusted. Littlefinger was gonna hold the charge back anyway
R.E.N. Spells Ren
Veteran
To save the day and get credit for herself. I get there’s much debate about this, but it works narratively, especially given her characters arc where she ended up. She wasn’t taken seriously in those command meetings cuz she doesn’t know battle strategy and can’t fight herself. She was going to have to scheme her way into glory.
Arya clearly laid that trap. She was waiting for the waif to attack, led her to her dungeon so she could finish her off in the dark. That one was kinda obvious, brehette.
Doubt she planned on cutting it that close, but the waif was a formidable opponent. If she went out too easily you’d be calling it “convenient” writing
Can’t speak for anyone else, but nonsensical writing where characters were put in certain death situations just to be saved is probably my biggest gripe with the last two seasons (best example being Jamie charging a dragon on horseback
)
Neo. The Only. The One.
THE ONE
Tyrion. They made this midget nikka useless once he touched down as Dani's right hand. Dude was useless in every single way.
There's debate about it because any theory that she did it as a sly, clever, cunning strategy to gain glory is just an interpretation that was never actually depicted on screen. The easiest way to get taken seriously would have been to reveal she was the key to securing the Knights of the Vale. Her withholding it was debated endlessly back when it was airing because her motivation for doing so was murky at best. Even with perfect hindsight, it still doesn't have a clear motivation.
The best theory, the one I actually posited when it aired, was that maybe she did it to lure Ramsey out in the open, avoid a siege, and get a decisive victory in the field, and was willing to sacrifice Rickon, Jon, and the Wildlings to do it and become the Lady of Winterfell.
But that theory, as narratively satisfying as a transformation that it would be with her character, was not what we got in the episodes that followed. She didn't scheme a victory with intentionality, she decided not to trust Littlefinger, then decided at the last second to trust Littlefinger, wrote Littlefinger at the final hour and hoped and prayed he would show up. Then when Jon asked for her advice on what they should do, the PERFECT time to make herself useful and reveal info that could again make her the key to the north, she went
As a plan to possibly sacrifice Rickon, the wildlings, and Jon in order to get what she wanted, a cold strategy like that could have been interesting characterization and would present a new and dark trajectory to take with her character. But all that followed the battle was her apologizing to Jon, saying she should have told him about the Knights, and then initially being happy that Jon is crowned king.
And the worst thing about it?
There was zero narrative blowback for the decision to withhold that info about the Knights of the Vale. The wildlings don't give a shyt that she withheld pivotal information before a battle that was devastating to the remaining surviving freefolk and killed the last living Giant. And Jon doesn't care either. Everyone treats it like something heroic, even the ones that should be pissed at her for what it cost them. Jon doesn't even question her writing Rickon off as a lost cause even though she had info about the Knights of the Vale the entire time.
The audience takeway is supposed to be that Sansa finally became a player and did something grand and powerful, learning from Cersei, Margaery, and Littlefinger, but the plot and characterization seem confused on what her action or inaction even was. Was it grand strategy? Or a happy accident? If strategy, why does no one care about its cruel calculation that nearly wiped out the freefolk, did result in the presumed claimant for king of the north being killed, and nearly killed Jon? If a happy accident, why is it treated like a feat of political acumen?
(This is also ignoring how the Knights of the Vale marched past Moat Cailin, all the way to Winterfell and were apparently just camped out waiting without the person controlling the North knowing. Also ignores that if Sansa didn't know if the Nights of the Vale were coming, telling Jon would have made the most sense because then they could have sent a scout or envoy ahead to see if this huge army was even in the north)
A scheming, clever player in the game that learned lessons from Cersei, Margaery, and Littlefinger and uses those lessons to make clever decisions was what I wanted from Sansa for years. But that character doesn't exist in season 6. Doesn't exist in season 7 and 8 either.
She fails upwards because the plot demands it, not based on calculated decisions where you can trace how she arrived at her choices based on the information she had, and how those choices led to desired outcomes that weren't accidents, like you could for characters like Margaery, and Littlefinger early on.
The plot needed to have the Knights of the Vale show up at the last minute and save the day, but there is no throughline connecting it to Sansa's calculation. It could have easily been her calculation though, if it was revealed she withheld because she needed Ramsay out in the open. But that explanation has to be theoried onto the narrative, it isn't actually in the text (or subtext), and none of the characters react as if this was her intention.
So basically
I remember when that episode dropped, and the internet exploded with theories on what the hell happened with Arya and your explanation was nestled between dozens of other theories
'Game of Thrones': The definitive ranking of wild internet theories about Arya Stark
I remember even I was trying to rationalize it
and then the Vanity Fair writer Joanna Robinson, probably the most popular GoT writer, posted an article that had everyone believing the "it was bait" theory that would be revealed in the next episode. This was back when D&D were still given the benefit of the doubt, so people thought there had to be logic behind crucial plot points, so Joanna was confident that the next episode "No One" would show how it was all part of Arya's plan.
Game of Thrones: Arya’s Plan for Survival Is Actually Pretty Simple
But then the next episode "No One" dropped, proved that theory wasn't actually what happened. How it looked was exactly how it was. No plan was behind it. Arya really did get caught slipping,really did wander around scared with gut wounds and probable infection in the streets with no intention of getting The Waif to follow her.
Joanna was incredulous at this after posting her article. The next week she came on her podcast with David Chen to explain how she was wrong about the bait theory and the Arya/Waif shyt was just bad writing.
A Cast of Kings S6E08 – No One
I remember this so vividly because it was precisely the moment where I realized I could no longer give these dudes the benefit of the doubt when it came to their writing choices. I gave up.
"Cutting it close" is an understatement and pun of the day
Was it actually her plan to magically find someone to patch her up in the streets? Or was Lady Crane saving her just a fortunate accident? and was swimming in dirty water with her guts spilling out part of the plan too?
Seriously though, I didn't know people still actually believed the "it was bait" theory after No One dropped, but I guess people can still cling to it if they also simultaneously accept that Arya is incompetent
I mean there was a way to do the "it was bait but Arya fukked up the plan because The Waif outsmarted her" if that was what they were going for. But what we got in the episode (and the one that followed) was not that. Neither Maise nor the director of the episode thought Arya was baiting the Waif.
Game of Thrones director Mark Mylod talks deaths, mistakes and Stoneheart
-Mark Mylod, director of the episode where Arya gets stabbed and the following episode when she has a chase scene with The Waif and kills her.
"laid a trap"
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R.E.N. Spells Ren
Veteran
Inadvertent post...
R.E.N. Spells Ren
Veteran
There's debate about it because any theory that she did it as a sly, clever, cunning strategy to gain glory is just an interpretation that was never actually depicted on screen. The easiest way to get taken seriously would have been to reveal she was the key to securing the Knights of the Vale. Her withholding it was debated endlessly back when it was airing because her motivation for doing so was murky at best. Even with perfect hindsight, it still doesn't have a clear motivation.
The best theory, the one I actually posited when it aired, was that maybe she did it to lure Ramsey out in the open, avoid a siege, and get a decisive victory in the field, and was willing to sacrifice Rickon, Jon, and the Wildlings to do it and become the Lady of Winterfell.
But that theory, as narratively satisfying as a transformation that it would be with her character, was not what we got in the episodes that followed. She didn't scheme a victory with intentionality, she decided not to trust Littlefinger, then decided at the last second to trust Littlefinger, wrote Littlefinger at the final hour and hoped and prayed he would show up. Then when Jon asked for her advice on what they should do, the PERFECT time to make herself useful and reveal info that could again make her the key to the north, she went
As a plan to possibly sacrifice Rickon, the wildlings, and Jon in order to get what she wanted, a cold strategy like that could have been interesting characterization and would present a new and dark trajectory to take with her character. But all that followed the battle was her apologizing to Jon, saying she should have told him about the Knights, and then initially being happy that Jon is crowned king.
And the worst thing about it?
There was zero narrative blowback for the decision to withhold that info about the Knights of the Vale. The wildlings don't give a shyt that she withheld pivotal information before a battle that was devastating to the remaining surviving freefolk and killed the last living Giant. And Jon doesn't care either. Everyone treats it like something heroic, even the ones that should be pissed at her for what it cost them. Jon doesn't even question her writing Rickon off as a lost cause even though she had info about the Knights of the Vale the entire time.
The audience takeway is supposed to be that Sansa finally became a player and did something grand and powerful, learning from Cersei, Margaery, and Littlefinger, but the plot and characterization seem confused on what her action or inaction even was. Was it grand strategy? Or a happy accident? If strategy, why does no one care about its cruel calculation that nearly wiped out the freefolk, did result in the presumed claimant for king of the north being killed, and nearly killed Jon? If a happy accident, why is it treated like a feat of political acumen?
(This is also ignoring how the Knights of the Vale marched past Moat Cailin, all the way to Winterfell and were apparently just camped out waiting without the person controlling the North knowing. Also ignores that if Sansa didn't know if the Nights of the Vale were coming, telling Jon would have made the most sense because then they could have sent a scout or envoy ahead to see if this huge army was even in the north)
A scheming, clever player in the game that learned lessons from Cersei, Margaery, and Littlefinger and uses those lessons to make clever decisions was what I wanted from Sansa for years. But that character doesn't exist in season 6. Doesn't exist in season 7 and 8 either.
She fails upwards because the plot demands it, not based on calculated decisions where you can trace how she arrived at her choices based on the information she had, and how those choices led to desired outcomes that weren't accidents, like you could for characters like Margaery, and Littlefinger early on.
The plot needed to have the Knights of the Vale show up at the last minute and save the day, but there is no throughline connecting it to Sansa's calculation. It could have easily been her calculation though, if it was revealed she withheld because she needed Ramsay out in the open. But that explanation has to be theoried onto the narrative, it isn't actually in the text (or subtext), and none of the characters react as if this was her intention.
So basically
I remember when that episode dropped, and the internet exploded with theories on what the hell happened with Arya and your explanation was nestled between dozens of other theories
'Game of Thrones': The definitive ranking of wild internet theories about Arya Stark
I remember even I was trying to rationalize it
and then the Vanity Fair writer Joanna Robinson, probably the most popular GoT writer, posted an article that had everyone believing the "it was bait" theory that would be revealed in the next episode. This was back when D&D were still given the benefit of the doubt, so people thought there had to be logic behind crucial plot points, so Joanna was confident that the next episode "No One" would show how it was all part of Arya's plan.
Game of Thrones: Arya’s Plan for Survival Is Actually Pretty Simple
But then the next episode "No One" dropped, proved that theory wasn't actually what happened. How it looked was exactly how it was. No plan was behind it. Arya really did get caught slipping,really did wander around scared with gut wounds and probable infection in the streets with no intention of getting The Waif to follow her.
Joanna was incredulous at this after posting her article. The next week she came on her podcast with David Chen to explain how she was wrong about the bait theory and the Arya/Waif shyt was just bad writing.
A Cast of Kings S6E08 – No One
I remember this so vividly because it was precisely the moment where I realized I could no longer give these dudes the benefit of the doubt when it came to their writing choices. I gave up.
"Cutting it close" is an understatement and pun of the day
Was it actually her plan to magically find someone to patch her up in the streets? Or was Lady Crane saving her just a fortunate accident? and was swimming in dirty water with her guts spilling out part of the plan too?
Seriously though, I didn't know people still actually believed the "it was bait" theory after No One dropped, but I guess people can still cling to it if they also simultaneously accept that Arya is incompetent
I mean there was a way to do the "it was bait but Arya fukked up the plan because The Waif outsmarted her" if that was what they were going for. But what we got in the episode (and the one that followed) was not that. Neither Maise nor the director of the episode thought Arya was baiting the Waif.
Game of Thrones director Mark Mylod talks deaths, mistakes and Stoneheart
-Mark Mylod, director of the episode where Arya gets stabbed and the following episode when she has a chase scene with The Waif and kills her.
"laid a trap"
So your “best” theory on Sansa is that she magically became an expert battle strategist?
That’s beyond silly. She had no reason to think she’d be taken seriously if she brought the Vale into the fold prior to the battle. And neither do you. It’s far more likely that she’d be thanked and cast aside whilst the real leaders laid battle plans with their larger army. They never viewed her having any real value behind her last name. This is illustrated in the planning scene where they never even bothered to get her insight on Ramsay’s psychological traits. She offered some insight to Jon and he just dismissed it by asking her a question he knew she couldn’t answer...cuz again, she’s not a battle strategist. But the insight she did give ended up being true and if Jon would’ve taken it seriously he could have used it to draw up his strategy. Juxtapose that to how Robb treated Catelyn when deciding how to deal with Walder Frey. Robb took her consultation and decided how to proceed (even tho he foolishly broke it later, after being blinded by p*ssy).
And Sansa was 100% right about Rickon. Ramsay would have never let him live. Sansa knew how much the b*stard Bolton wanted to be Lord of Winterfell and that the only reason he was kept alive was as bait. She laid out sound reasoning as to why Rickon’s death was certain given his strongest claim to the seat. Jon, the strategist, dismissing that on some blind family honor shyt said it all. Instead of his rah rah shyt, he could have heeded her advice and thought about how “the one who lays the traps” might use Rickon.
With Arya, she never planned on getting stabbed up and being that close to death (that would be a ridiculous plan, obviously). She planned on walking around the city in the open until the Waif attacked so she could lure her into the dungeon where Arya held the advantage needed to actually beat the Waif (exactly what ended up happening when the Waif engaged the second time). The Waif, being a formidable final boss, got more success that anticipated, but Arya, being a very skilled warrior/assassin was able to narrowly escape. They even showed Arya survive right away to avoid a cheap cliffhanger (juxtapose that to the shytty Jamie charging the dragon scene).
It’s IRREFUTABLE that she was luring the Waif to the dungeon in the final scene. You’d rather believe Arya concocted that plan in the heat of the moment, wounded, standing over her friend’s dead body (the friend she saved to get her in this mess) than her concocting that plan from the beginning hence her leaving Needle there with a single candle to carry that plan out simply because you want to criticize the writing.
Any objective viewer would agree that the latter is far more likely. There’s no other logical reason as to why she’d move Needle from the hiding spot in the rocks to that dungeon...just to IMMEDIATELY go around the city without it. It was the plan from the beginning; it went sideways, but she was able to get it back on track and triumph. That’s how legends are born.
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Sensitive Christian Grey
The Fisher King
One of the best sequences in a fantasy series ever
and they just wasted it man