Official Bernie Sanders HQ: Not Me, Us!

[King Kreole]

See you are thinking Republicans or Republican like people are rational and will listen to reason. They aren't, you have to make your appeal more emotional. Anything approaching a mob with pitch forks demanding healthcare or any other good from the government scares them. All that, "Gee whiz, I'm not up for re-election anytime soon." Won't register if they are scared they will be ripped out of their office and stoned in the street before any election. You got to change the terrain you are fighting on with these a$$holes. You saw Obama try to heal Washington and appeal to them over and over with Republican like ideas. They spit in his face and wanted to go even more right after he was done talking. Being nice to these people doesn't work, you have to threaten them that what they have now will be gone so you better give us what we want or else.

If Bernie's approach relies on Joe Manchin being spooked into action because he's afraid of literally being assassinated, I have some doubts about how strong of an approach it is. But yes, I agree that Obama's approach of trying to appeal to Republicans is fatally doomed and should be rejected.

 

[DEAD7]

We didn't miss it we just know appealing to only 11-13% of the population isn't a winning strategy. Being right is cool but it isn't always effective. Let's be result oriented instead of being right but unappealing to most people.

 

[King Kreole]

Warren's plan is not more pragmatic and is just as unlikely to work. As if doing away with the filibuster, relying on the Hickenloopers and Manchins of the party for votes, passing a Public Option first and then passing M4A in quick succession is some pragmatic brilliant strategy. It's like, yall go out of your way to shyt on Bernie's plan but ignore the obvious challenges Warren is facing. It's just flat out biased thinking.

Here's the reality with BOTH situations. They're going to face extreme challenges and are unlikely to get through all of the obstacles. NO ONE is fooling themselves about the obstacles here. Except maybe you if you've deluded yourself into thinking Warren's plan is some pragmatic strategy that will magically pull through in the face of the exact same kind of opposition Bernie faces. If your end goal is actually M4A then Warren's plan is loaded with pitfalls because ANY plan to get M4A passed faces that. No need to gaslight Bernie and his supporters for choosing a different strategy.

I have said multiple times before that even Warren's plan is straining the reaches of what is likely. But I can still see a realistic path for it to happen. That path is practically non-existant with Bernie's approach. Manchin himself in on record as supporting a public option, so I don't think it will be impossible to get him on board with voting for Liz's first step, but he says he wouldn't support Bernie's M4A bill and even equivocated on whether he would vote for Bernie over Trump. Which is why Bernie's plan relies on getting rid of him somehow. Liz's plan is more pragmatic because it was devised to navigate the actual political landscape, as opposed to Bernie's plan which was devised as an end-goal. I personally doubt whether that second step in her plan will actually come to pass, but I also accept that full M4A is a long-term, perhaps decades-long, political project. I don't expect it to happen under any president in the next term. But Liz's plan is definitely more likely to pass than Bernie's plan.

 

[AnonymityX1000]

If Bernie's approach relies on Joe Manchin being spooked into action because he's afraid of literally being assassinated, I have some doubts about how strong of an approach it is. But yes, I agree that Obama's approach of trying to appeal to Republicans is fatally doomed and should be rejected.

So I you reject Obama's plan to appeal to them what's the alternative? I think it is extreme opposition from the constituency where outcomes are not predictable based on written rules.

 

[storyteller]

I have said multiple times before that even Warren's plan is straining the reaches of what is likely. But I can still see a realistic path for it to happen. That path is practically non-existant with Bernie's approach. Manchin himself in on record as supporting a public option, so I don't think it will be impossible to get him on board with voting for Liz's first step, but he says he wouldn't support Bernie's M4A bill and even equivocated on whether he would vote for Bernie over Trump. Which is why Bernie's plan relies on getting rid of him somehow. Liz's plan is more pragmatic because it was devised to navigate the actual political landscape, as opposed to Bernie's plan which was devised as an end-goal. I personally doubt whether that second step in her plan will actually come to pass, but I also accept that full M4A is a long-term, perhaps decades-long, political project. I don't expect it to happen under any president in the next term. But Liz's plan is definitely more likely to pass than Bernie's plan.

Again all this is, is your speculation. There's nothing solid here that says "Liz is definitely more pragmatic" other than your speculation.

"I can see Manchin supporting a Public Option" doesn't get us to M4A point blank. It MIGHT get us to a Public Option, that's it. And that's not even guaranteed to be helpful...


Again...if you want to take the stance that M4A can't pass with the next administration. Do that. But Bernie supporters are looking for a candidate that will genuinely try to pull it off. Warren has lost the left on M4A because she's worse on M4A. Stop trying to rationalize around it. Her plan is great...for passing a public option.

 

[King Kreole]

So I you reject Obama's plan to appeal to them what's the alternative? I think it is extreme opposition from the constituency where outcomes are not predictable based on written rules.

I agree that bottom-up grassroots political change is how we’ll get long-term goals like M4A to be enacted. It’s not going to come from Joe Manchin voting for it, it’s going to come from voters demanding a progressive alternative. I just don’t believe we’re at that point in history yet, and I don’t believe Bernie Sanders being elected is the only way to get to that point.

 

[King Kreole]

"I can see Manchin supporting a Public Option" doesn't get us to M4A point blank. It MIGHT get us to a Public Option, that's it. And that's not even guaranteed to be helpful...


Again...if you want to take the stance that M4A can't pass with the next administration. Do that. But Bernie supporters are looking for a candidate that will genuinely try to pull it off. Warren has lost the left on M4A because she's worse on M4A. Stop trying to rationalize around it. Her plan is great...for passing a public option.

Yeah I agree, Bernie has become the “M4A or Bust!” candidate while Liz has become the “expand healthcare as much as possible on the way to M4A” candidate.

 

[storyteller]

Yeah I agree, Bernie has become the “M4A or Bust!” candidate while Liz has become the “expand healthcare as much as possible on the way to M4A” candidate.

Bernie has become the only candidate that actually can be trusted to fight for M4A. Warren has become one of a multitude of candidates who intend to pass a Public Option and eventually get around to M4A. As long as you understand that, we're in agreement regardless of how you want to dress it up.

 

[King Kreole]

Bernie has become the only candidate that actually can be trusted to fight for M4A. Warren has become one of a multitude of candidates who intend to pass a Public Option and eventually get around to M4A. As long as you understand that, we're in agreement regardless of how you want to dress it up.

Yeah basically. I truly believe Bernie is now the only candidate who thinks they can pass M4A in the immediate future. And as M4A is for all intents and purposes impossible to enact in the immediate future, I find his fight symbolic at best and, depending on how serious he is about this fight and the political capital he expends on it, a tragic and idiotic political misstep at the worst.

 

[storyteller]

Yeah basically. I truly believe Bernie is now the only candidate who thinks they can pass M4A in the immediate future. And as M4A is for all intents and purposes impossible to enact in the immediate future, I find his fight symbolic at best and, depending on how serious he is about this fight and the political capital he expends on it, a tragic and idiotic political misstep at the worst.

The idea isn't M4A or bust, it's someone sincerely trying to pass it. If Bernie fights for M4A and has to fall back on his demands, that's going to be acceptable to the vast majority of his supporters. Starting at a Public Option fight is not the same thing and whether you want to admit it or not, it carries the same opportunity to be a tragic and idiotic political misstep.

 

[King Kreole]

The idea isn't M4A or bust, it's someone sincerely trying to pass it. If Bernie fights for M4A and has to fall back on his demands, that's going to be acceptable to the vast majority of his supporters. Starting at a Public Option fight is not the same thing and whether you want to admit it or not, it carries the same opportunity to be a tragic and idiotic political misstep.

What does “sincerely trying to pass M4A” look like in an environment where we all already know it won’t pass?

 

[storyteller]

What does “sincerely trying to pass M4A” look like in an environment where we all already know it won’t pass?

Year one: You push for M4A legislation instead of a Public Option stopgap. If you're forced to make concessions during that fight is one thing, making those concessions without any pressure just sets you up to be forced into other compromises.

It's not complicated.

 

[King Kreole]

Year one: You push for M4A legislation instead of a Public Option stopgap. If you're forced to make concessions during that fight is one thing, making those concessions without any pressure just sets you up to be forced into other compromises.

It's not complicated.

What fight? There will be a spectacle vote that will get M4A publicly shot down and then Bernie is where? Same place Warren is (reality), trying to adopt her plan, except he will have a big L hanging over his head due to his signature policy being shot down. I truly don’t see the appeal in doing suicide missions. This isn’t bold, it’s dumb.

 

[New Jeruzalem Journalist]

What does “sincerely trying to pass M4A” look like in an environment where we all already know it won’t pass?

Wait, hold up.

How do you already know it won't pass? And why didn't you tell the rest of us you already knew it wasn't gonna pass before we started wasting our time fighting and advocating for it?

I wish you would have told me that before I put that M4A bumper sticker on my car.

Now I look like an idiot.

 

[King Kreole]

Wait, hold up.

How do you already know it won't pass? And why didn't you tell the rest of us you already knew it wasn't gonna pass before we started wasting our time fighting and advocating for it?

I wish you would have told me that before I put that M4A bumper sticker on my car.

Now I look like an idiot.