No one was more dominant than Peak Shaq

[Peruvian Connect]

Shaq wasn't dominant though.... He's a career underachiever.

 

[Peruvian Connect]

The most dominant player in the history of our sport. Big shaq daddy.

Tht's easily Wilt and then Jordan.

 

[Swagnificent]

This is a horrible post...

First of all, you're only giving Kobe a 5-year prime, which is completely preposterous and unfair to Kobe. Then you're splitting his prime as if it was interrupted by either an injury disruption (think Durant missing an entire season) or a dramatic decline in play that served as a gulf between otherwise consistent high-level production (think CP3). Neither of these qualifiers apply to Kobe that warrant erasing a year or two of his prime as if they didn't exist...

And again saying Kobe had only a 5-year prime in a 20-year career is obviously untrue. What you're really referencing is Kobe's peak, but you're splitting it for some strange reason. He wasn't peaking in no damn 2001-03; though those were some of his best defensive seasons he wasn't anywhere near the complete player he became later...

Your premise to start is flawed at multiple points, and I want to say you and I have engaged a conversation on Kobe's career before in years past...

Second of all, his career path wasn't all that unusual. Magic had to "share" the spotlight in a similar situation. Russell entered The League on a team featuring the first great guard in Cousy and had to "share" that situation. Jerry West walked onto a squad featuring Elgin Baylor who was one of the best players in the sport and had to wait his turn to "shine". This is three situations I can call off the top of the dome easily, there are more. It's hardly unusual to enter The League on a team where there's an established superstar and you have to grow into your own...

This is a point to circle back to later because Kobe wasn't ready when he entered the NBA to shoulder the burden of carrying a franchise. He didn't have to "share" anything, he had to develop into a player that could handle that responsibility and spotlight...

To the meat of your post, Kobe didn't have an extraordinary peak. He became a GOAT because of how long he was an elite, Top 10 player, which was at the very least a dozen years, and I could make the case he was a Top 10 guy for as long as 15 years. That level of consistency at that level of play for that long of time (minimum 12 years) is extraordinary and rare, that's how he became a GOAT...

He didn't become a GOAT because he had an otherworldly peak, because he just didn't. It was high, but there's a pretty long line of guys who peaked higher...

Lastly, you need to quantify the "circumstances that conspired" against him and his GOAT case, because it's already established the one you named (that he had to share the spotlight) isn't factual, that never hampered anyone else in that situation who earned inclusion. Kobe and Shaq spent 8 years together. At bare minimum, Shaq was the greater player for the first 6 of those 8 years, and unquestionably so during their championship runs...

If anything hurts Kobe when it comes to GOAT standing:

•he didn't peak as high as a number of guys

•he played in 7 Finals and doesn't have any performance that can be considered All-Time great or iconic, a number of other candidates do and a few have multiple

•he doesn't really have any hallmark, legendary front-to-back playoff runs, while a number of other candidates do and a few have multiple

•he's really the only Top 15 guy that didn't walk into the NBA as NBA-ready, this can't be overlooked in direct comparisons and its actually a testament to his work ethic that he built himself into a legend because the general rule for guys of his historical weight, those guys walk into the door as culture-changers, franchise-altering players, floor-raisers---->but you can't just compare him to guys who WERE and act like it doesn't matter

You're right. I meant Peak Kobe not Prime. I split it up because in the summer of 03 Eagle Colorado happened. Kobe also had off-season knee surgery. Anyone with any basketball sense knows 2003-04 Kobe was nowhere close to the guy we saw just one year earlier. Then in 04-05 Kobe battled plantar fasciitis to start the year then had a severe ankle injury causing him to miss a ton of games in the middle. Look at his numbers from 2001-03 and 2005-08 and compare them to 2003-04 and 2004-05. You'll see a noticeable dip in particular his FG%. Clear sign he wasn't the same player. Eye test also backed it up. Those were injury riddled seasons for Kobe where guys not as tough as him would have sat out.

The difference between Kobe and Magic's career path is Shaq and Kareem. First of all, Kareem was 32 years old when Magic was drafted. Clearly on the back end of his prime. While Shaq was 24 years old when Kobe was drafted and just entering his. Also Shaq and Kareem had different personalities. Shaq was far more of an alpha male. Same with Kobe compared to Magic. Also both Kobe and Shaq were scorers while Magic was a facilitator to Kareem's scorer. They fit better schematically and personality wise. Also the age difference made it obvious a transition would take place. With Kobe and Shaq you had 2 guys far closer in age whose mindsets for the game were similar who were alpha males. They naturally butted heads which is why they broke up. Magic never had to deal with an MVP caliber Kareem getting traded away in the middle of his prime and having to start over from scratch. No superstar had Kobe's path.

The rest of your post is complete bullshyt. Kobe didn't walk into the league NBA ready? No shyt. He came into the league nearly 1 full year younger than LeBron and 2 years younger than Magic. Kobe turned 18 in August of his rookie year. LeBron turned 19 in December of his rookie year while Magic turned 20 in August of his rookie year. No all-time great ever came into the NBA as young as Kobe. As a result he obviously had more growing pains than others. With that said by the time Kobe was 19 (same age as LeBron during his rookie year) he was clearly NBA ready. That's why a more fair comparison is Kobe's second season to say LeBron rookie year when both were 19 years old. Kobe famously made the all-star game as a starter at 19 years old (youngest in NBA history). He then dueled MVP level Michael Jordan several times that year so much so he earned Jordan's respect. The episode from The Last Dance which featured Kobe was a testament to that. Kobe was NBA ready at the same age as LeBron. And here were his numbers at 19 compared to LeBron at 19.

Kobe at 19 years old (per 36 mins):
21.4 PPG
4.2 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
0.7 BPG
54.8 TS%
18.5 PER


LeBron at 19 years old (per 36 mins):

19.1 PPG
5.0 RPG
5.4 APG
1.5 SPG
0.7 BPG
48.8 TS%
18.3 PER


Now imagine is Kobe was given the same leeway as LeBron did at 19 years old. How many more points does he score if he plays 40 minutes per game from the jump? How many more scoring titles does he win if he's on a rebuilding team to start his career where he can take every shot rather than sharing the ball with an MVP level teammate?

 

[Ku$h Parker]

Nah, his injured big toe being rehabbed on company time could stop that dominance. As could him being totally out of shape. Or how if the “big dog” didn’t get fed then he ain’t wanna rebound or play defense. Don’t get me wrong, Shaq was definitely laying down law but he prevented himself from truly being dominant.

Put it this way, he did what he did in his peak and acted like a lazy ass fukkboy a lot of that time which is why him and Kobe clashed to begin with. If he really was bout his shyt, he really would be the MDE and might’ve gone down as the GOAT.

Yeah that Book really put things in perspective bout Shaq & Kobe as far as Work Ethic went and I was Team Shaq them years

 

[murksiderock]

Wilt averaged 50 though

Shaq was just as physically unique vs his competition as Wilt while being a more complete player at his peak. Wilt could do anything he wanted but never everything he could. Shaq's peak is over his.

Kareem has a case particularly on defense but this is the same guy you knock for missing the playoffs during his prime/peak period.

Mike and Bron obviously did what they did but I do think it's unique that Shaq did in fact change how teams manned their rosters and I do think his rise led to skilled center-sized players sliding to the 4. Those 2 changed player/team DNA moreso for guys coming behind them, not necessarily their direct competition/contemporaries (though Bron somewhat challenges this since he's been the caliber we know he is for an unparalleled stretch of time).

I think Shaq gets underappreciated on here for a couple of reasons.

Can't argue with this fam and I also think Shaq is highly unappreciated on here...

Giannis may still be peaking but how would you compare his peak as is to Shaq's?

 

[BK The Great]

Wilt then Shaq. Can’t deny how much of a monster he was when they were winning championships back to back.

 

[murksiderock]

You're right. I meant Peak Kobe not Prime. I split it up because in the summer of 03 Eagle Colorado happened. Kobe also had off-season knee surgery. Anyone with any basketball sense knows 2003-04 Kobe was nowhere close to the guy we saw just one year earlier. Then in 04-05 Kobe battled plantar fasciitis to start the year then had a severe ankle injury causing him to miss a ton of games in the middle. Look at his numbers from 2001-03 and 2005-08 and compare them to 2003-04 and 2004-05. You'll see a noticeable dip in particular his FG%. Clear sign he wasn't the same player. Eye test also backed it up. Those were injury riddled seasons for Kobe where guys not as tough as him would have sat out.

The difference between Kobe and Magic's career path is Shaq and Kareem. First of all, Kareem was 32 years old when Magic was drafted. Clearly on the back end of his prime. While Shaq was 24 years old when Kobe was drafted and just entering his. Also Shaq and Kareem had different personalities. Shaq was far more of an alpha male. Same with Kobe compared to Magic. Also both Kobe and Shaq were scorers while Magic was a facilitator to Kareem's scorer. They fit better schematically and personality wise. Also the age difference made it obvious a transition would take place. With Kobe and Shaq you had 2 guys far closer in age whose mindsets for the game were similar who were alpha males. They naturally butted heads which is why they broke up. Magic never had to deal with an MVP caliber Kareem getting traded away in the middle of his prime and having to start over from scratch. No superstar had Kobe's path.

The rest of your post is complete bullshyt. Kobe didn't walk into the league NBA ready? No shyt. He came into the league nearly 1 full year younger than LeBron and 2 years younger than Magic. Kobe turned 18 in August of his rookie year. LeBron turned 19 in December of his rookie year while Magic turned 20 in August of his rookie year. No all-time great ever came into the NBA as young as Kobe. As a result he obviously had more growing pains than others. With that said by the time Kobe was 19 (same age as LeBron during his rookie year) he was clearly NBA ready. That's why a more fair comparison is Kobe's second season to say LeBron rookie year when both were 19 years old. Kobe famously made the all-star game as a starter at 19 years old (youngest in NBA history). He then dueled MVP level Michael Jordan several times that year so much so he earned Jordan's respect. The episode from The Last Dance which featured Kobe was a testament to that. Kobe was NBA ready at the same age as LeBron. And here were his numbers at 19 compared to LeBron at 19.

Kobe at 19 years old (per 36 mins):
21.4 PPG
4.2 RPG
3.5 APG
1.3 SPG
0.7 BPG
54.8 TS%
18.5 PER


LeBron at 19 years old (per 36 mins):

19.1 PPG
5.0 RPG
5.4 APG
1.5 SPG
0.7 BPG
48.8 TS%
18.3 PER


Now imagine is Kobe was given the same leeway as LeBron did at 19 years old. How many more points does he score if he plays 40 minutes per game from the jump? How many more scoring titles does he win if he's on a rebuilding team to start his career where he can take every shot rather than sharing the ball with an MVP level teammate?

LeBron on Draft Day was only 8 months older than Kobe on Draft Day, that's a negligible difference. They both came straight from high school, we not about to start adding these qualifiers for Kobe that don't exist for anyone else just because he was 17 years and 10 months old on Draft Day...

Disagree with everything else you said but I'm cool with it...

 

[MJ Truth]

Shaq better than Wilt . Wilt shied away from contact. To me its Shaq, Giannis, then Wilt...

How dominant is Giannis REALLY though??

 

[Swagnificent]

LeBron on Draft Day was only 8 months older than Kobe on Draft Day, that's a negligible difference. They both came straight from high school, we not about to start adding these qualifiers for Kobe that don't exist for anyone else just because he was 17 years and 10 months old on Draft Day...

Disagree with everything else you said but I'm cool with it...

8 months is a huge difference when talking about teenagers. Guys that age can totally change their bodies over one summer. There's a reason teams look at age when drafting players. What might seem like a small difference in age is actually a big deal when guys are that young.

You said Kobe wasn't NBA ready as a rookie. I said no superstar ever came into the league as young as him. You were unable to refute that.

 

[Yessir_Araphat]

Premise on point, but that vid chosen sucked showing his dominance

 

[Ozymandeas]

First of all, you're only giving Kobe a 5-year prime, which is completely preposterous and unfair to Kobe. Then you're splitting his prime as if it was interrupted by either an injury disruption (think Durant missing an entire season) or a dramatic decline in play that served as a gulf between otherwise consistent high-level production (think CP3). Neither of these qualifiers apply to Kobe that warrant erasing a year or two of his prime as if they didn't exist...

And again saying Kobe had only a 5-year prime in a 20-year career is obviously untrue. What you're really referencing is Kobe's peak, but you're splitting it for some strange reason. He wasn't peaking in no damn 2001-03; though those were some of his best defensive seasons he wasn't anywhere near the complete player he became later...

Your premise to start is flawed at multiple points, and I want to say you and I have engaged a conversation on Kobe's career before in years past...

Second of all, his career path wasn't all that unusual. Magic had to "share" the spotlight in a similar situation. Russell entered The League on a team featuring the first great guard in Cousy and had to "share" that situation. Jerry West walked onto a squad featuring Elgin Baylor who was one of the best players in the sport and had to wait his turn to "shine". This is three situations I can call off the top of the dome easily, there are more. It's hardly unusual to enter The League on a team where there's an established superstar and you have to grow into your own...

This is a point to circle back to later because Kobe wasn't ready when he entered the NBA to shoulder the burden of carrying a franchise. He didn't have to "share" anything, he had to develop into a player that could handle that responsibility and spotlight...

To the meat of your post, Kobe didn't have an extraordinary peak. He became a GOAT because of how long he was an elite, Top 10 player, which was at the very least a dozen years, and I could make the case he was a Top 10 guy for as long as 15 years. That level of consistency at that level of play for that long of time (minimum 12 years) is extraordinary and rare, that's how he became a GOAT...

He didn't become a GOAT because he had an otherworldly peak, because he just didn't. It was high, but there's a pretty long line of guys who peaked higher...

Lastly, you need to quantify the "circumstances that conspired" against him and his GOAT case, because it's already established the one you named (that he had to share the spotlight) isn't factual, that never hampered anyone else in that situation who earned inclusion. Kobe and Shaq spent 8 years together. At bare minimum, Shaq was the greater player for the first 6 of those 8 years, and unquestionably so during their championship runs...

If anything hurts Kobe when it comes to GOAT standing:

•he didn't peak as high as a number of guys

•he played in 7 Finals and doesn't have any performance that can be considered All-Time great or iconic, a number of other candidates do and a few have multiple

•he doesn't really have any hallmark, legendary front-to-back playoff runs, while a number of other candidates do and a few have multiple

•he's really the only Top 15 guy that didn't walk into the NBA as NBA-ready, this can't be overlooked in direct comparisons and its actually a testament to his work ethic that he built himself into a legend because the general rule for guys of his historical weight, those guys walk into the door as culture-changers, franchise-altering players, floor-raisers---->but you can't just compare him to guys who WERE and act like it doesn't matter

2002 to 2008 is Kobe’s prime with his core prime being the mid 2000s. Kobe was born in 1978. That makes him 24 to 30 years old for those years. Maybe you can add 2009 and 2010 at the end but that’s about it. IDK why people think every basketball player is supposed to be in their prime until their deep 30s. That’s not how the human body works. At 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 that IS your peak athletic state. Your 30s are the downward slope.

Edit: Just say you hate Kobe and move on breh.

 

[murksiderock]

2002 to 2008 is Kobe’s prime with his core prime being the mid 2000s. Kobe was born in 1978. That makes him 24 to 30 years old for those years. Maybe you can add 2009 and 2010 at the end but that’s about it. IDK why people think every basketball player is supposed to be in their prime until their deep 30s. That’s not how the human body works. At 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 that IS your peak athletic state. Your 30s are the downward slope.

Edit: Just say you hate Kobe and move on breh.

Giving Kobe a 6-year prime when he was a Top 10 player for at least a dozen years is stupid. It's one thing to talk about a guy's athletic peak, it's another to talk about his prime. Kobe extended his prime into his mid-30s, we aren't talking about everybody here, we're talking about Kobe...

Just admit you hate Kobe . 6-year prime...

8 months is a huge difference when talking about teenagers. Guys that age can totally change their bodies over one summer. There's a reason teams look at age when drafting players. What might seem like a small difference in age is actually a big deal when guys are that young.

You said Kobe wasn't NBA ready as a rookie. I said no superstar ever came into the league as young as him. You were unable to refute that.

You're saying he wasn't NBA ready because he was short of his 18th birthday when he entered The League. There's nothing to "refute" there, that's your opinion, it isn't mine. Thousands of guys came into The League older than 18½ and weren't NBA ready so that 8-month gap is negligible but I see what you're doing here. This sidebar conversation we're having had nothing to do with LeBron but you made sure you brought him up...

 

[Swagnificent]

You're saying he wasn't NBA ready because he was short of his 18th birthday when he entered The League. There's nothing to "refute" there, that's your opinion, it isn't mine. Thousands of guys came into The League older than 18½ and weren't NBA ready so that 8-month gap is negligible but I see what you're doing here. This sidebar conversation we're having had nothing to do with LeBron but you made sure you brought him up...

I said he came into the league younger than every other all-time great. That's why he wasn't ready as a 18 year old rookie. But by the time he turned 19 he was an all-star going blow for blow with Jordan.

If Kobe wasn't a year younger than his peers and came into the league at 19 like LeBron he would have been NBA ready.

 

[Rekkapryde]

Tht's easily Wilt and then Jordan.

Big Man and Overall - Wilt
Wing - edit: Giannis
Little Man -

 

[FukkaPaidEmail]

Nah fam Wilt put up 100

He was putting up MyCareer stats consistently