New York Times: New Harvard study shows police kill white and black suspects at the exact same rates

Brown_Pride

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slow down. can someone tell me is this a per capita study or a total vs total study?

meaning. if it says there are 100 whites in america, and there are 20 blacks in america. the police shoot 20 blacks in america but they also shoot 20 whites in america. so wa la... its even, no bias. when in reality. its 80 less blacks in america than their are whites. so you just wiped out all of the blacks and only 20% of the whites. pure bias towards blacks is what the per capita shows.
so read the article for sure, but yeah that's exactly what it is. The other things that most people really don't take into account. When you're performing a study of any kind you need a control, the issue with variable humans is that each and every incident is essentially and independent circumstance. Just because ONE cop in Houston shot ONE white or black guy doesn't mean that's the same thing as a cop in LA doing the exact same thing. There are far too many variable circumstances to look at this shyt as a whole. You'd almost have to take each and every shooting, perform an analysis of that ONE shooting THEN decide if the cop was justified in shooting (in which case it's justified.)

The other thing is that reporting on police shootings is fukin atrocious at best.
 

tmonster

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Nice try trolls and race baiters, turns out police brutality is a liberal myth.
I can't even...
I am just gonna bounce out of this thread


The 12 key highlights from the DOJ’s scathing Ferguson report
By Mark Berman and Wesley Lowery March 4, 2015

imrs.php

Police officers watch protesters in Ferguson last November. (Charlie Riedel/AP)
Seven months after a white Ferguson police officer shot and killed an unarmed 18-year-old, the Justice Department has issued a searing report into policing and court practices in the Missouri city. Investigators determined that in “nearly every aspect of Ferguson’s law enforcement system,” African Americans are impacted a severely disproportionate amount. The report included racist e-mails sent by police and municipal court supervisors, repeated examples of bias in law enforcement and a system that seemed built upon using arrest warrants to squeeze money out of residents.
Here are some key excerpts from the report:
The city’s practices are shaped by revenue rather than by public safety needs.
imrs.php

The 67% of African Americans in Ferguson account for 93% of arrests made from 2012-2014.
imrs.php

Here is what happened when a 32-year-old black man was seen resting in his car after playing basketball.
imrs.php

A Ferguson woman parked her car illegally once in 2007. It ended up costing her more than $1,000 and 6 days in jail.
imrs.php

The disproportionate number of arrests, tickets and use of force stemmed from “unlawful bias,” rather than black people committing more crime.
imrs.php

A singled missed, late or partial payment of a fine could mean jail time.
imrs.php

Arrest warrants are “almost exclusively” used as threats to push for payments.
imrs.php

And if time is served, no credit for jail time is received and the length of time isn’t even recorded by the court.
imrs.php

This example of a lieutenant’s actions was a huge cause for concern:
imrs.php

Officers used a dog to attack an unarmed 14-year-old black boy and then struck him while he was lying on the ground, all while he was waiting for his friends in an abandoned house. The report concludes that in every dog bite incident reported, the person bitten was black.
imrs.php

After an officer assaulted a man, he demanded the man not pass out because he didn’t want to carry him to his car.
imrs.php

From October 2012 to October 2014, every time a person was arrested because he or she was “resisting arrest,” that person was black.
imrs.php

Swati Sharma contributed to this report.
 

joeychizzle

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I would've expected more from Harvard.
The simple fact that they used a sample size of ten police departments, from three states alone discredits the entire study. If they had utilized data from perhaps fifty percent of the nation or a hundred percent and the data still showed the same conclusion, then I would stfu. But nah, this feels like an attempt to deflect and de-legitimise (can't think of a better word atm smh) the plight of AAs that suffered under the racist police.

Really, Harvard? :francis::dahell50mayne:
 

DrBanneker

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Did anyone bother reading the paper or naw?
It's profound.

I like Roland Fryer and his work in general, but sometimes, like many economists, he tries to use statistical methods to massage data or analysis gaps that can't be filled otherwise.

I read the and it is interesting but I have a couple of questions and issues about its methods and interpretation.

1. First the evidence of biased non-lethal force and non-biased officer involved shootings are from two different types of datasets. T

A. The data from the NYC Stop & Frisk program and another civilian police interaction survey are used to find that Blacks are more often the victims of non-lethal force by cops. These datasets don't have shootings and don't cover the question. What is interesting is the analysis of these are more odds ratio based (demographics of suspects vs. demographics of force)

B. I find it interesting that nowhere in the paper does the clear finding of excessive non-lethal force raise questions on how non-lethal force can be biased but lethal force unbiased. Again, the data sets are different so it is conservative not to compare them but still it is a bit perplexing.

C. The shootings data set (or officer involved shootings or OIS) are from the police departments in Austin, Houston, Dallas, as well as LA and some Florida counties. He uses some sophisticated econometrics to analyze this and I see what he's doing but my issue is that it is not a simple odds ratio analysis like non-lethal force.

The authors admit that a basic statistical analysis--comparing shootings by race to a dataset (a control as other posters mentioned) randomized by race isn't really possible due to the nature of the data and limited data set. Ok, I can't blame them.

But to cover for this, they construct a mathematical model of behavior of rational agents (civilians who comply or don't and police who are unbiased or discriminatory) with 'tastes' and 'payoffs' for compliance (civilians) or discrimination (cops). They then set up a formula and coefficients to reflect what they believe the effects of bias are on police actions, whether civilians comply, etc. Then they estimate the relative shooting risk based on this model to declare whether or not police are biased. So they are essentially doing a regression on a model created to make a 'control'.

How do they determine the probability a race carried a weapon for their dataset? They don't use actual reports, they sampled 5% from Houston (the labor of doing this was substantial but still...) and used this as a 'random' sample to assign the probability someone from a race had a weapon in a police interaction! And since there was no sampling testing methodology (like bootstrapping) we have no idea if this 5% sample was at all representative. In addition, the reports of who carried what weapon are based on police reports....

I mean when the model says stuff like, "When biased police officers interact with B civilians they derive psychic pleasure from using force, independent of whether they are compliant or not. We represent this by, tau (Greek letter variable), a positive term in the biased officer's payoff (equation) when he uses force on B civilians. Note: This is similar to the taste
parameter pioneered in Becker (1957)."

What this means in English is that they are reducing police excessive use of force to whether an officer derives some sort of "pleasure" from shooting the suspect which makes the possible costs (investigation, prosecution) less deterrant relative to the rewards of him getting off shooting the perp. I mean, does anyone (well some do) think police brutality is this simple except amongst a small group of hardcore racists? I always thought unconscious dehumanization and groupthink played a bigger role than closet KKK types. But that is essentially what the model limits it to.

In addition, Fryer admits the shooting database doesn't compare how many suspects were shot versus those who were pulled over or in situations that could go downhill so we have no idea if the increasing likelihood of Whites getting shot is due to police going after Whites for more hardcore stuff and shooting them while Blacks get shot for more mundane things (traffic stop). This point is my biggest issue. Black people aren't protesting TreTre the dealer with an AK-47 being shot, they are protesting the innocent (or low level offense) random person ending up dead.

Ok, I'm tired. That's all for tonight.
 

DrBanneker

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Oh one more thing:

It seems that there is a problem with cops in general as shootings have gone up even as crime has declined. But interesting Fox's data shows Whites being increasingly victimized more. It doesn't mean Blacks aren't being targeted, but maybe the cancer of excessive force is spreading...

Police recklessness, not racism: Fox
 

mitter

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I would've expected more from Harvard.
The simple fact that they used a sample size of ten police departments, from three states alone discredits the entire study. If they had utilized data from perhaps fifty percent of the nation or a hundred percent and the data still showed the same conclusion, then I would stfu. But nah, this feels like an attempt to deflect and de-legitimise (can't think of a better word atm smh) the plight of AAs that suffered under the racist police.

Really, Harvard? :francis::dahell50mayne:


Why don't you read the research article before dismissing it?

It doesn't claim to be comprehensive, and it recognizes a number of its limitations.

Also, obtaining the data with the kind of detail they considered is not easy. You act like there is some sort of massive data base with highly detailed, consistently-documented records from thousands of police departments.


Roland Fryer is one of the world's most respected economists. But I'm sure he was unaware of the limitations of the study that became immediately apparent to coli posters such as yourself after reading a brief summary :stopitslime:
 

mitter

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/13/u...stions-about-his-police-force-study.html?_r=0

A new study on police force found no bias against black civilians in police shootings in 10 cities and counties, including Houston. It did find bias against blacks in every other type of force, like the use of hands or batons. The study provoked debate after it was posted on Monday, mostly about the volume of police encounters and the scope of the data it used. Below, the author of the study, Roland G. Fryer Jr., a professor of economics at Harvard, answered questions from readers.

What about the chance of a police encounter?

Mr. Fryer’s study looked only at what happens once the police have stopped civilians, not at the chances of being stopped in the first place. Many readers questioned whether that was the right denominator. Other research has shown that blacks are more likely to be stopped by the police.

Lee Buttala from Ashley Falls, Mass., asked, “Is it possible that the statistics on shooting are misleading because the police are less likely to stop white people generally.”

Wendy Maland from Chicago put it this way: “The question isn’t — once police identify you as a potential criminal, how are you treated? — the question is — who is being treated as a criminal?”

Mr. Fryer: I agree that blacks are more likely to be stopped, more likely to be harassed and more likely to be arrested.

Ideally we would be able to set up an experiment to understand potential differences before an encounter. Unfortunately, that would require us to randomly assign civilian race in encounters of police, which isn’t possible!

Given this limitation, we need to make the best out of available data. There are two important things I want to note:

1. The types of encounters that lead to police shootings in the videos that we have all seen are not the most common that actually occur in the data. In Houston, for instance, most of the officer-involved shootings come from calls for service resulting from burglaries or violent crimes, not from chasing down people with broken taillights.

2. I totally agree that deciding who to stop in a police stop is highly problematic and there certainly may be racial bias in that decision. So let’s think about the officer-involved shootings in which there’s a robbery in progress or a violent crime. Those are less likely to be plagued by selection bias in the decision of who to harass or stop. Analyzing only those cases yields similar results. Moreover, when we analyze only cases in which the officer-involved shooting began with a routine stop or a traffic stop, we do not find bias. But these results are susceptible to your point that there’s more traffic stops of blacks.

Why the focus on Houston?

Mr. Fryer’s evidence on shootings came from 10 cities and counties. In these places, he examined questions like whether officers were quicker to fire at black suspects and whether black civilians in officer-involved shootings were less likely to be armed. The data from these places supported his counterintuitive finding, that there wasn’t racial bias in the use of lethal force. But his most comprehensive data — including times when the police did not shoot — came from Houston.

Mr. Phil in Houston wrote, “Houston and NYC are certainly the most racially diverse cities in the country, yet was Houston the best comparator?” (Houston and New York City are indeed among the most racially diverse cities in the country.)

Mr. Fryer The most comprehensive set of officer-involved shooting data is from the Houston Police Department. For this reason, we contacted HPD to help construct a data set of police-civilian interactions in which lethal force may have been justified. If we had the data from other cities, we would definitely use it.

My sincere hope is that the type of analysis being done in our paper will lead other police departments and community groups to understand the types of data we need to answer these important questions and work together to be more transparent and make that data public.

How is your work different from an earlier analysis?

Many readers asked about previous studies, in particular a paper published in PLOS ONE by Cody T. Ross. That paper, “A Multi-Level Bayesian Analysis of Racial Bias in Police Shootings at the County-Level in the United States, 2011–2014,” found that the chance of being black, unarmed and shot by the police was about 3.5 times the chance of being white, unarmed and shot by the police. It was based on a crowdsourced data set, the U.S. Police-Shooting Database, that includes some nonfatal shootings. (About two-thirds of the shootings in Mr. Fryer’s data set were nonfatal.)

The USPSD covers the entire country, but it is not comprehensive. It has information from a variety of departments on 16 civilians shot by the police in Houston and other parts of Harris County, Tex., from 2011 to 2014. Mr. Fryer’s data shows 177 shootings by the Houston Police Department in those years.

The questions the papers asked were different, particularly in Houston. As Mr. Ross wrote, “The USPSD does not have information on encounter rates between police and subjects according to ethnicity. As such, the data cannot speak to the relative risk of being shot by a police officer conditional on being encountered by police.”

John H. in Chicago wrote, “Please compare these results versus the ones published by Ross.”

Mr. Fryer: Our paper does not attempt to overturn previous analyses; its guiding novelty is the granularity of the micro-data.

For nonlethal force, why were the estimates from police data and civilian data so different?

Mr. Fryer looked at two sources of data on nonlethal force. The first was from stop-and-frisk records in New York City. The second, from the perspective of civilians, came from a national survey, the Police-Public Contact Survey, or PPCS.

Hydraulic Engineer in Seattle wrote, “The last graph on citizen-reported encounters — ‘Use of Force in All Types of Police Encounters, According to Civilians’ — requires much more explanation. It shows much more bias toward blacks than the earlier graphs using police reports of encounters with ‘compliant’ citizens.”

Mr. Fryer: There are several potential explanations for the quantitative differences between our estimates using Stop and Frisk data and those using PPCS data. First, the baseline probability of force in each of the data sets is substantially different. Second, the PPCS is a nationally representative sample of a broad set of police-civilian interactions. Stop and Frisk data is from a particularly aggressive form of policing in a dense urban area. Third, the PPCS data is gleaned from the civilian perspective. Finally, granular controls for location are particularly important in the Stop and Frisk data and unavailable in PPCS.

In the end, the answer is likely somewhere in the middle, and — importantly — both bounds are statistically and economically important. In other words, even taking the Stop and Frisk data at face value, we should all care about these differences.

Do we have to trust police reports to believe your study?

“‘Police narratives’?!” wrote Paula Robinson from Peoria, Ill. Larry Evans asked,If a Narrative crashes in the forest, does it make any sound?”

Mr. Fryer: As we state in the paper, there are certainly high-profile cases in which the facts stated by officers differed substantially from the videos. So let’s take a minute and think about how this sort of misreporting might bias our findings.

In nonlethal uses of force, we find racial differences even when we use police accounts of the interactions, so perhaps the “true” estimates of the differences are even larger. In other words, one might think the differences are “at least” as big as we state.

Then we have to consider the lethal uses of force. Surprisingly — at least to me — the finding was true whether or not we relied on police accounts of the encounter. Let me pause there.

I expected to find that there were large racial differences in lethal uses of force but that once you accounted for what the police said happened that those differences would lessen or perhaps even go away. I didn’t have faith in police reports.

What we actually found was that there were no racial differences in the basic differences analysis. It didn’t matter whether we took context — as captured by officer reports — into account or not; there was no racial bias in either analysis.

Yes, police reports can be tricky to understand and decide how to use, but they don’t seem to affect our analysis meaningfully in this instance.

Mr. Fryer hopes his analysis — and reader examination of it — leads to better data on the police use of force. “It’s not the finish,” he said. “It’s the start.”
 

DrBanneker

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Why don't you read the research article before dismissing it?

It doesn't claim to be comprehensive, and it recognizes a number of its limitations.

Also, obtaining the data with the kind of detail they considered is not easy. You act like there is some sort of massive data base with highly detailed, consistently-documented records from thousands of police departments.


Roland Fryer is one of the world's most respected economists. But I'm sure he was unaware of the limitations of the study that became immediately apparent to coli posters such as yourself after reading a brief summary :stopitslime:

I agree, this data is a b*tch to get and I am frankly surprised they got as much as they did. My biggest gripe though is the agent econometric model they used for the regression. They are assuming how civilians and police do certain things in an encounter with linear weights. Their ratios rest entirely on this.

Another side note, and this should not discourage Fryer or his work, is that I am really surprised criminologists or those who have studied this in psychology weren't consulted, even in the paper acknowledgments. Treating this as an economic cost-benefit interaction may not be accurate. But I respect him for trying.
 

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Finally some people who actually read it

for the rest i will post a summary..a cliffnotes if you will

http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399.pdf

ABSTRACT
This paper explores racial differences in police use of force. On non-lethal uses of force, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to experience some form of force in interactions with police. Adding controls that account for important context and civilian behavior reduces, but cannot fully explain, these disparities. On the most extreme use of force – officerinvolved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings
In this paper, we estimate the extent of racial differences in police use of force using four separate datasets – two constructed for the purposes of this study.3 The first comes from NYC’s Stop, Question, and Frisk program (hereafter Stop and Frisk)The other two datasets were assembled for the purposes of this research. We use event summaries from all incidents in which an officer discharges his weapon at civilians – including both hits and misses – from three large cities in Texas (Austin, Dallas, Houston), six large Florida counties, and Los Angeles County, to construct a dataset in which one can investigate racial differences in officer-involved shootings. Because all individuals in these data have been involved in a police shooting, analysis of these data alone can only estimate racial differences on the intensive margin (e.g., did the officer discharge their weapon before or after the suspect attacked)A team of researchers was responsible for reading arrest reports and collecting almost 300 variables on each incident. Combining this with the officer-involved shooting data from Houston allows us to estimate both the extensive (e.g., whether or not a police officer decides to shoot) and intensive margins. Further, the Houston arrests data contain almost 3,500 observations in which officers discharged charged electronic devices (e.g., tasers). This is the second most extreme use of force, and in some cases, is a substitute for lethal use of force.
Using data on NYC’s Stop and Frisk program, we demonstrate that on non-lethal uses of force – putting hands on civilians (which includes slapping or grabbing) or pushing individuals into a wall or onto the ground, there are large racial differences. In the raw data, blacks and Hispanics are more than fifty percent more likely to have an interaction with police which involves any use of force.
THIS IS THE COUNTER-INTUITIVE PART
In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely. Both coefficients are statistically insignificant.
The methodology is quite interesting
Shoot Firsti,c,t “ Race1 iα ` X1 i,tβ ` Z 1 c,tT ` νt ` ψc ` i,c,t,
where Shoot Firsti,c,t

is a measure of whether a police officer reports shooting individual i, in city c, in year t, before being attacked. Standard errors, which appear below each estimate, are clustered at the location level unless otherwise specified. The results from these specifications are consistent with our previous results on the extensive margin. Row (1) displays the results from the raw data. Blacks are 1.3% less likely to be shot first by police. Hispanics are slightly more likely. Neither coefficient is statistically significant. Adding suspect or officer demographics does not alter the results.28
Thus, for police officers, payoffs depend on their type, whether or not they use force, and whether or not the civilian is compliant. We begin with unbiased officers. If force is used, the officers payoff is ´K ´ φF if the civilian is compliant and χF ´ φF if the civilian is non-compliant. If no force is used, the officer receives a payoff of 0 if the civilian is compliant and ´χNF if the civilian is non-compliant. These payoffs are identical for biased officers when they interact with W civilians. When biased police officers interact with B civilians they derive psychic pleasure from using force, independent of whether they are compliant or not. We represent this by, τ a positive term
In words, equation (5) provides a threshold, θ ˚ ub, such that for any θ below this threshold unbiased officers always use force. Similarly, using the corresponding expected payoffs for a biased officer, one can derive θ ˚ b . Now, consider the civilian’s expected payoff. W civilians receive F1pθ ˚ ubqp´γq ´c if they invest and F0pθ ˚ ubqp´γq if they choose not to invest. When optimizing, a civilian will invest in compliance if and only if the cost of compliance is less than the net benefit of compliance. In symbols, c ď c ˚ W ” tFncpθ ˚ ubq ´ Fcpθ ˚ ubqu γ. Similarly, Bs invest if c ď c ˚ B ” γ tδpFncpθ ˚ ubq ´ Fcpθ ˚ ubqq ` p1 ´ δqpFncpθ ˚ b q ´ Fcpθ ˚ b qqu. Note – given we assume δ ą 0 – it follows that c ˚ B ă c ˚ W .
Interesting conclusion
The importance of our results for racial inequality in America is unclear. It is plausible that racial differences in lower level uses of force are simply a distraction and movements such as Black Lives Matter should seek solutions within their own communities rather than changing the behaviors of police and other external forces


Much more troubling, due to their frequency and potential impact on minority belief formation, is the possibility that racial differences in police use of non-lethal force have spillovers on myriad dimensions of racial inequality. If, for instance, blacks use their lived experience with police as evidence that the world is discriminatory, then it is easy to understand why black youth invest less in human capital or black adults are more likely to believe discrimination is an important determinant of economic outcomes. Black Dignity Matters
 

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Half of arrestees by St. Anthony police in 2016 are black





By KYLE POTTER , Associated Press
July 13, 2016 - 9:10 PM






MINNEAPOLIS — Police in the suburban St. Paul area where a black man was shot and killed during a traffic stop have disproportionately arrested African-Americans, according to an analysis of data provided by the department that shows nearly half of the people arrested this year in the heavily white community were black.

The St. Anthony Police Department provided arrest and citation data in response to requests from The Associated Press and other media after the death of 32-year-old Philando Castile, who was shot several times by an officer in Falcon Heights last week. His death and other recent killings of black men by police around the country have renewed concerns about how law enforcement officers interact with minorities.

Castile's girlfriend, who streamed the aftermath of his July 6 shooting live on Facebook, said in her video that Castile was complying with the officer's request to provide ID when he was repeatedly shot. A lawyer for the officer has said Castile was considered a "possible match" for a suspect in a recent armed robbery.

Court records show he had been stopped or ticketed more than 50 times in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, but he had no serious criminal record.

Just 7 percent of residents are black in St. Anthony and neighboring Lauderdale and Falcon Heights, according to census data. The St. Anthony police data shows that nearly half of all arrests made by St. Anthony officers were of African-Americans in 2016. And despite a small increase in the area's African-American population since 2010, the percentage of the department's black arrestees has increased steadily since 2011, when a third of the people it arrested were black.

"The numbers are shocking and certainly raise some very serious concerns," said Glenda Hatchett, the attorney for Castile's family who has vowed to file a lawsuit in his death.

All told, roughly 38 percent of the people arrested by the St. Anthony Police Department since 2011 have been black.

"That is consistent with a pattern of profiling," said Myron Orfield, who helped conduct a study for the Minnesota Legislature on racial profiling.

St. Anthony Police Chief Jon Mangseth was not immediately available to respond to a request for comment. A message seeking comment from the community's mayor, Jerry Faust, was not immediately returned.

The St. Anthony Police Department did not participate in the 2003 study for the Legislature, although 65 other law enforcement jurisdictions did. The study found a strong likelihood that racial bias played a role in traffic stop practices statewide. The pattern was more pronounced in suburban areas.

More data from St. Anthony on police searches and how often contraband is found in searches would paint a fuller picture, said Orfield, who's with the Institute on Metropolitan Opportunity at the University of Minnesota Law School in Minneapolis.

The St. Anthony data does not give details about individual arrests, nor show when an arrestee was also issued a citation. The department's annual reports show the vast majority of its arrests stem from traffic-related offenses.

St. Anthony, north of St. Paul, serves the small communities of Falcon Heights and Lauderdale. The area mirrors the demographics of the Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area as a whole, which was about 7 percent black in 2014, according to the latest American Community Survey data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

St. Anthony figures for police-issued citations are closer to the demographics of neighboring communities. Twelve percent of its citations issued since 2011 have been to blacks.
 

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I like Roland Fryer and his work in general, but sometimes, like many economists, he tries to use statistical methods to massage data or analysis gaps that can't be filled otherwise.

I read the and it is interesting but I have a couple of questions and issues about its methods and interpretation.

1. First the evidence of biased non-lethal force and non-biased officer involved shootings are from two different types of datasets. T

A. The data from the NYC Stop & Frisk program and another civilian police interaction survey are used to find that Blacks are more often the victims of non-lethal force by cops. These datasets don't have shootings and don't cover the question. What is interesting is the analysis of these are more odds ratio based (demographics of suspects vs. demographics of force)

B. I find it interesting that nowhere in the paper does the clear finding of excessive non-lethal force raise questions on how non-lethal force can be biased but lethal force unbiased. Again, the data sets are different so it is conservative not to compare them but still it is a bit perplexing.

C. The shootings data set (or officer involved shootings or OIS) are from the police departments in Austin, Houston, Dallas, as well as LA and some Florida counties. He uses some sophisticated econometrics to analyze this and I see what he's doing but my issue is that it is not a simple odds ratio analysis like non-lethal force.

The authors admit that a basic statistical analysis--comparing shootings by race to a dataset (a control as other posters mentioned) randomized by race isn't really possible due to the nature of the data and limited data set. Ok, I can't blame them.

But to cover for this, they construct a mathematical model of behavior of rational agents (civilians who comply or don't and police who are unbiased or discriminatory) with 'tastes' and 'payoffs' for compliance (civilians) or discrimination (cops). They then set up a formula and coefficients to reflect what they believe the effects of bias are on police actions, whether civilians comply, etc. Then they estimate the relative shooting risk based on this model to declare whether or not police are biased. So they are essentially doing a regression on a model created to make a 'control'.

How do they determine the probability a race carried a weapon for their dataset? They don't use actual reports, they sampled 5% from Houston (the labor of doing this was substantial but still...) and used this as a 'random' sample to assign the probability someone from a race had a weapon in a police interaction! And since there was no sampling testing methodology (like bootstrapping) we have no idea if this 5% sample was at all representative. In addition, the reports of who carried what weapon are based on police reports....

I mean when the model says stuff like, "When biased police officers interact with B civilians they derive psychic pleasure from using force, independent of whether they are compliant or not. We represent this by, tau (Greek letter variable), a positive term in the biased officer's payoff (equation) when he uses force on B civilians. Note: This is similar to the taste
parameter pioneered in Becker (1957)."

What this means in English is that they are reducing police excessive use of force to whether an officer derives some sort of "pleasure" from shooting the suspect which makes the possible costs (investigation, prosecution) less deterrant relative to the rewards of him getting off shooting the perp. I mean, does anyone (well some do) think police brutality is this simple except amongst a small group of hardcore racists? I always thought unconscious dehumanization and groupthink played a bigger role than closet KKK types. But that is essentially what the model limits it to.

In addition, Fryer admits the shooting database doesn't compare how many suspects were shot versus those who were pulled over or in situations that could go downhill so we have no idea if the increasing likelihood of Whites getting shot is due to police going after Whites for more hardcore stuff and shooting them while Blacks get shot for more mundane things (traffic stop). This point is my biggest issue. Black people aren't protesting TreTre the dealer with an AK-47 being shot, they are protesting the innocent (or low level offense) random person ending up dead.

Ok, I'm tired. That's all for tonight.

The bolded is my biggest issue with the articles findings as well as any other white person or c00n person talking about this subject matter.

Trey trey with an AK47 pointing it at the cops deserves to get lit up with bullets. live by the gun die by the gun.

but if Terry the white guy hops out of his pickup on a normal traffice stop in texas and starts shooting at the cops. he deserves to get lit up too.

now lil D from up the street that sells loosies should never be shot at or choked out. if you have to take him to jail. get a couple of people. handcuff him and thats that. if he makes a big fuss and is resisting. you get more officers to join in and hog tie the dude if you must.but at no point should lil D get shot.

someone will say but if you get into an altercation with a guy he may go for your gun. thats the problem. cops are starting situations that never have to be started. then putting themselves in harms way. then either getting scared or lying about being scared and they setup the scenario to begin with just to get a free pass to kill a brotha or sista.


While the white guy named Jeff is seen selling the same loosies and blowing herb. and they never arrest him. or if they do, they let him off with a little fine. guns are never drawn.
 

pimpineasy

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I agree, this data is a b*tch to get and I am frankly surprised they got as much as they did. My biggest gripe though is the agent econometric model they used for the regression. They are assuming how civilians and police do certain things in an encounter with linear weights. Their ratios rest entirely on this.

Another side note, and this should not discourage Fryer or his work, is that I am really surprised criminologists or those who have studied this in psychology weren't consulted, even in the paper acknowledgments. Treating this as an economic cost-benefit interaction may not be accurate. But I respect him for trying.

well said this is what econoist do
attempot to make models based on incomplete data
and for people saying well i hate doing that i rather trust my guts its been well documented that humans are extremely poor at making correct choices based on intuition
 

Professor Emeritus

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In addition, Fryer admits the shooting database doesn't compare how many suspects were shot versus those who were pulled over or in situations that could go downhill so we have no idea if the increasing likelihood of Whites getting shot is due to police going after Whites for more hardcore stuff and shooting them while Blacks get shot for more mundane things (traffic stop). This point is my biggest issue. Black people aren't protesting TreTre the dealer with an AK-47 being shot, they are protesting the innocent (or low level offense) random person ending up dead.

The bolded is my biggest issue with the articles findings as well as any other white person or c00n person talking about this subject matter.

Trey trey with an AK47 pointing it at the cops deserves to get lit up with bullets. live by the gun die by the gun.

but if Terry the white guy hops out of his pickup on a normal traffice stop in texas and starts shooting at the cops. he deserves to get lit up too.

now lil D from up the street that sells loosies should never be shot at or choked out. if you have to take him to jail. get a couple of people. handcuff him and thats that. if he makes a big fuss and is resisting. you get more officers to join in and hog tie the dude if you must.but at no point should lil D get shot.

someone will say but if you get into an altercation with a guy he may go for your gun. thats the problem. cops are starting situations that never have to be started. then putting themselves in harms way. then either getting scared or lying about being scared and they setup the scenario to begin with just to get a free pass to kill a brotha or sista.


While the white guy named Jeff is seen selling the same loosies and blowing herb. and they never arrest him. or if they do, they let him off with a little fine. guns are never drawn.


That was also the very first thing I thought of when I read Fryer's first interview regarding the results. A deeper look at it shows the concern is still there.

If everything leading up to the fatal interaction was biased in the same direction, you can't just treat the fatal interactions as if they were happening under the same circumstances.

My second objection is just that there weren't enough different types of departments tested, as the vox article points out.



I think the work is an important contribution. It might even show that, at least among certain urban police departments, fatal interactions show less racial bias than nonfatal interactions. (Which does make a little bit of sense, potentially - many cops probably don't think twice about the consequences when pulling over Black men at twice the rate of White men, or even physically abusing "suspects", but when it comes to pulling the trigger you have to think that a certain % at least are going to hold back from going full KKK.) But since the data set is biased by all the initial biased decisions made by the police, how do you know that the results of the final interaction haven't been skewed? You're suggesting that the final results might not be as biased as the previous decisions, but the fact that you're bringing in a much bigger pool of "suspects" and abusing them in different ways means that you can't just straight-up compare the final two pools like that.


On the other hand, anyone who thinks Fryer is a c00n, or that he shouldn't be taken seriously because he didn't get this data from 1000s of different police departments, is an idiot. Look up his life story and previous work and accolades.
 

rapbeats

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That was also the very first thing I thought of when I read Fryer's first interview regarding the results. A deeper look at it shows the concern is still there.

If everything leading up to the fatal interaction was biased in the same direction, you can't just treat the fatal interactions as if they were happening under the same circumstances.

My second objection is just that there weren't enough different types of departments tested, as the vox article points out.



I think the work is an important contribution. It might even show that, at least among certain urban police departments, fatal interactions show less racial bias than nonfatal interactions. (Which does make a little bit of sense, potentially - many cops probably don't think twice about the consequences when pulling over Black men at twice the rate of White men, or even physically abusing "suspects", but when it comes to pulling the trigger you have to think that a certain % at least are going to hold back from going full KKK.) But since the data set is biased by all the initial biased decisions made by the police, how do you know that the results of the final interaction haven't been skewed? You're suggesting that the final results might not be as biased as the previous decisions, but the fact that you're bringing in a much bigger pool of "suspects" and abusing them in different ways means that you can't just straight-up compare the final two pools like that.


On the other hand, anyone who thinks Fryer is a c00n, or that he shouldn't be taken seriously because he didn't get this data from 1000s of different police departments, is an idiot. Look up his life story and previous work and accolades.
and thats all i was saying. these kind of findings almost dont need to be put out there since its incomplete. but we know the racist white folks and others and c00ns will use this halfbaked study to say "see see there you have it. its not bias." stop it.

this is the thing about black people. we need to learn to be a lot more strategic. this guy is just trying to be honest with the data he has. wrong move sir. as smart as he is, he didnt even understand that. you get this piece meal data and come to that conclusion. you hold on to it until you can do a complete study. stop giving the racist ammo. you see them scrambling after these last two deaths. they are running out of excuses. we need them to get to the point where they just crack and out right say it. " i hate n-words. and i wish they would all die or go back to africa."

so once that happens we can all stop pretending.
 
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