My Posse's On Broadway: Official NY Knicks 2016-2017 Season Thread

[JMurder]

Despite the bold proclamations in my initial posts, I wanna thank you for enlightening me that it's preseason. Powerful posting.

You're welcome. Hope you realized that your excitement over one game was largely unnecessary. Have a good day

 

[Sampson]

:Denzelknick:

 

[Derek Lee]

Advanced stats are how you figure out that he had a rim protecting front court to begin with and his defense being piss poor when he needed knee surgery really isn't the strongest case against him. I'm cool with the idea that he's better off defending PF's; but claiming he's "average at best" defending SF's is completely ignoring that he proved he can do better than that just last year.

Based on what??? Your personal feelings??? It's one year and a small sample size. Even with it, the Knicks rated as a mediocre defensive team on Melo on the floor. Only a 107 defensive rating (third highest in his career) with him on the floor .Good for between 14th-15th best in the league. Negative DBPM, and DRPM, too. Don't use one year as a definitive trend going forward. Age/attrition is only gonna make it worse going from now on. He has always been poor at guarding in space against quicker wings. That's why Anthony doesn't match up against the opponent's best perimeter player. That assignment usually belongs to Lance Thomas.

Cats ignore stats whenever it doesn't benefit their argument. And some of ya'll need to chill, it's 1 preseason game. It's not even Halloween yet, and some of ya'll already started with the doom & gloom posting.

Nah, you're just sensitive anything regarding Carmelo.

 

[JMurder]

Based on what??? Your personal feelings??? It's one year and a small sample size. Even with it, the Knicks rated as a mediocre defensive team on Melo on the floor. Only a 107 defensive rating (third highest in his career) with him on the floor .Good for between 14th-15th best in the league. Negative DBPM, and DRPM, too. Don't use one year as a definitive trend going forward. Age/attrition is only gonna make it worse going from now on. He has always been poor at guarding in space against quicker wings. That's why Anthony doesn't match up against the opponent's best perimeter player. That assignment usually belongs to Lance Thomas.



Nah, you're just sensitive anything regarding Carmelo.

Ur both right. Historically, Melo hasn't tried defensively...BUT there is quantifiable evidence that when he tries, he is at worst a competent defender. Nothing that he said was wrong....his numbers slipped after he got hurt so u either have to take the full season numbers with a grain of salt, or you have to give an explanation why his numbers fluctuated at the times they did.

 

[Derek Lee]

Ur both right. Historically, Melo hasn't tried defensively...BUT there is quantifiable evidence that when he tries, he is at worst a competent defender. Nothing that he said was wrong....his numbers slipped after he got hurt so u either have to take the full season numbers with a grain of salt, or you have to give an explanation why his numbers fluctuated at the times they did.

At best, he's average/competent as a wing, period. He's at times displayed of being a capable defender, but throughout his career, he's been subpar. It's his 13th year in the league. He is who is he at this point. Number slippage due to injury can't use be an outlier. Dude has always been hurt during his tenure with the Knicks. Regression, interim coach Rambis (and his horrendous defensive scheme) and injury to Lance Thomas are probably other factors you can account for.

 

[storyteller]

Based on what??? Your personal feelings??? It's one year and a small sample size. Even with it, the Knicks rated as a mediocre defensive team on Melo on the floor. Only a 107 defensive rating (third highest in his career) with him on the floor .Good for between 14th-15th best in the league. Negative DBPM, and DRPM, too. Don't use one year as a definitive trend going forward. Age/attrition is only gonna make it worse going from now on. He has always been poor at guarding in space against quicker wings. That's why Anthony doesn't match up against the opponent's best perimeter player. That assignment usually belongs to Lance Thomas.



Nah, you're just sensitive anything regarding Carmelo.

Don't get emotional and lose sight of the initial assertion you made, which is all I've been correcting. You said he's "at best average" defensively and I'm saying that he spent half a season playing well above average defense (literally the last time he was fully healthy, his defensive play was above average). So obviously, he's capable of playing above average defense. Saying "I don't give a fukk about advanced stats" is fine, but that's "your personal feelings" being used to ignore stats. I'm not arguing that he's better defending 4's; or that's he an elite defender...just saying he's capable of being an above average defender.

 

[Derek Lee]

Don't get emotional and lose sight of the initial assertion you made, which is all I've been correcting. You said he's "at best average" defensively and I'm saying that he spent half a season playing well above average defense (literally the last time he was fully healthy, his defensive play was above average). So obviously, he's capable of playing above average defense. Saying "I don't give a fukk about advanced stats" is fine, but that's "your personal feelings" being used to ignore stats. I'm not arguing that he's better defending 4's; or that's he an elite defender...just saying he's capable of being an above average defender.

The problem with your assertion is that you used a two and half month sample size. If you had a bigger one, then I would have no qualms about your statement and advanced stats. And Melo's been in the league for 13 years and has not displayed that kind of consistency on the defensive side of the floor on year-to-year basis. Can't stay healthy either. Anthony doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point of his career.

 

[JMurder]

The problem with your assertion is that you used a two and half month sample size. If you had a bigger one, then I would have no qualms about your statement and advanced stats. And Melo's been in the league for 13 years and has not displayed that kind of consistency on the defensive side of the floor on year-to-year basis. Can't stay healthy either. Anthony doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point of his career.

The season the Knicks were the second seed, Melo showed the same defensive capabilities. Just saying

 

[Derek Lee]

The season the Knicks were the second seed, Melo showed the same defensive capabilities. Just saying

Nope. LOL at "same defensive capabilities." Played 72% of his minutes as a four that year. You know not by guarding other team's best wing/guard. Just saying

 

[storyteller]

The problem with your assertion is that you used a two and half month sample size. If you had a bigger one, then I would have no qualms about your statement and advanced stats. And Melo's been in the league for 13 years and has not displayed that kind of consistency on the defensive side of the floor on year-to-year basis. Can't stay healthy either. Anthony doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt at this point of his career.

It's closer to 4 months than two and a half, it was the last large chunk of time where he was legitimately healthy and the assertion isn't that he will play above average defense for any specific amount of time; just that he is capable of playing above average defense at his best, because he's literally done it before. I think this is all coming down to the semantics of that initial statement. You can't really say "at best" he's average and then point out that he can't stay healthy as a reason he's average at best defensively. If he's not healthy, he's not at his best. I'm not arguing that he isn't injury prone or that he isn't a good defender when he's injured. I'm just saying, that when he is healthy, his defensive ceiling is well above average and his floor is closer to average than it is to the trash bin...but that's at his best, not any other time.

 

[Derek Lee]

It's closer to 4 months than two and a half, it was the last large chunk of time where he was legitimately healthy and the assertion isn't that he will play above average defense for any specific amount of time; just that he is capable of playing above average defense at his best, because he's literally done it before. I think this is all coming down to the semantics of that initial statement. You can't really say "at best" he's average and then point out that he can't stay healthy as a reason he's average at best defensively. If he's not healthy, he's not at his best. I'm not arguing that he isn't injury prone or that he isn't a good defender when he's injured. I'm just saying, that when he is healthy, his defensive ceiling is well above average and his floor is closer to average than it is to the trash bin...but that's at his best, not any other time.

Melo stepped on the ref's foot on January 12nd. *Half a season basically.
That defensive ceiling/floor based on three and a half months holds no merit. Also Can't overlook that caveat of remaining healthy. He's missed 15 games in the past two out of the last four seasons and has always dealt with lingering injuries (knee, shoulder, ankle).

 

[storyteller]

Melo stepped on the ref's foot on January 12nd. *Half a season basically.
That defensive ceiling/floor based on three and a half months holds no merit. Also Can't overlook that caveat of remaining healthy. He's missed 15 games in the past two out of the last four seasons and has always dealt with lingering injuries (knee, shoulder, ankle).

You're arguing a point I'm not trying to make.
Your point that he can't sustain his defensive play because he will get hurt isn't something I particularly disagree with. I don't think it's fair to assume injury, but that's strictly opinion and I agree that there's a good chance he'll spend some of this season hurt which hinders his defense every time.

The point I'm making however is what Melo's defense is at it's BEST. When he's injured, he's not at his best. Three and a half months at above average defense means that Melo at his best was playing above average defense. So the claim "Melo is at best average" defensively is flat out wrong. Because we've clearly seen that he can play above average defense and it wasn't for a day or two...it was for half a season.

So I think the compromise here is "Melo at his best is capable of playing above average defense" BUT "you don't believe he can sustain that level of play long enough for it to warrant inclusion in a discussion about this team's defense for a full season." Correct me if that's not the thought process here, but I think that's what you're getting at if I'm reading right.

 

[Mr. Jack Napier]

You're arguing a point I'm not trying to make.
Your point that he can't sustain his defensive play because he will get hurt isn't something I particularly disagree with. I don't think it's fair to assume injury, but that's strictly opinion and I agree that there's a good chance he'll spend some of this season hurt which hinders his defense every time.

The point I'm making however is what Melo's defense is at it's BEST. When he's injured, he's not at his best. Three and a half months at above average defense means that Melo at his best was playing above average defense. So the claim "Melo is at best average" defensively is flat out wrong. Because we've clearly seen that he can play above average defense and it wasn't for a day or two...it was for half a season.

So I think the compromise here is "Melo at his best is capable of playing above average defense" BUT "you don't believe he can sustain that level of play long enough for it to warrant inclusion in a discussion about this team's defense for a full season." Correct me if that's not the thought process here, but I think that's what you're getting at if I'm reading right.

That's basic common sense that can be applied to every athlete. Why are you even debating still. People are going to dislike certain players for whatever reasons. Whatever logic you try to apply, people will ignore it.

 

[Ironman]

:Denzelknick:

 

[Derek Lee]

You're arguing a point I'm not trying to make.
Your point that he can't sustain his defensive play because he will get hurt isn't something I particularly disagree with. I don't think it's fair to assume injury, but that's strictly opinion and I agree that there's a good chance he'll spend some of this season hurt which hinders his defense every time.

The point I'm making however is what Melo's defense is at it's BEST. When he's injured, he's not at his best. Three and a half months at above average defense means that Melo at his best was playing above average defense. So the claim "Melo is at best average" defensively is flat out wrong.

Like you said before, it's a matter of semantics. You're using a half of a season and I'm using the year as an entirety. Not even providing context about his on/off numbers (101.3 drating on/110.4 drating off dated from 10/28/15-01/12/16) with/without Porzingis, his defense in the pre Porzingis era and Denver era and some of his defensive numbers eventually had to regress to the mean somewhat.

So I think the compromise here is "Melo at his best is capable of playing above average defense for three and a half months with the condition that he has to be playing with maximum effort ,100% health and certain players (Porzingis, Lopez and Thomas) to mask his limitations" BUT "you don't believe he can sustain that level of play long enough for it to warrant inclusion in a discussion about this team's defense for a full season." Correct me if that's not the thought process here, but I think that's what you're getting at if I'm reading right.

We agree, here.