Man of Steel (2013)

[The Prince of All Saiyans]

he needs help.

Proceeding to make stupid comments then get called out on them too

 

[Alpha Male]

True, that's a limited reading of those scenes. All of them reinforce that Superboy doing his duty is something to be ashamed of and fear of consequences. Which is repeated as adult Clark never smiles or reassures anyone after helping them. He just runs off.



What you're saying isn't in conflict with what I'm saying. All that can all be true.

It's also true that Superman comes from a loving family who supports and loves one another despite hardships. That side is what they chose to ignore in favor of the "being Superboy is tough" to set the stage for the rest of the movie. That scene of Pa talking about letting kids die could have been a powerful scene between a husband and wife discussing how to raise their son with frustration of wanting to set a good example and keep him safe. It's a jerk move putting that burden on you 12 year old son of life and death.

We never even see Ma and Pa Kent have a conversation about their son as husband and wife. It's all angst by fear in front of third parties(classmates in the closet, school bus/mom confronts Martha,bullies in front of Pete,Pa Kent's death).

all good points.

the movie's priority function shouldn't just be to get us invested in clark, but to get us in invested in henry cavill as clark... because ultimately he is the one who has to carry the movie. showing us young clark give us more context, but it doesn't do anything to make the audience more familiar and comfortable around henry.

we barely get to spend any time with henry in this movie before he dons the cape. he mopes around for a bit, barely says anything at all, and is constantly cutting to flashbacks of the child version of himself. we never get to see him live his day to day life... the ups.. the downs... we never get a feel for his personality or his character. he is always kept at a distance.

this is why almost everyone currently playing a famous superhero has gone to be a beloved star... and why the guy playing THEE most famous superhero is still a c-list celebrity. it's like his superman never even happened.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

True, that's a limited reading of those scenes. All of them reinforce that Superboy doing his duty is something to be ashamed of and fear of consequences. Which is repeated as adult Clark never smiles or reassures anyone after helping them. He just runs off.



What you're saying isn't in conflict with what I'm saying. All that can all be true.

It's also true that Superman comes from a loving family who supports and loves one another despite hardships. That side is what they chose to ignore in favor of the "being Superboy is tough" to set the stage for the rest of the movie. That scene of Pa talking about letting kids die could have been a powerful scene between a husband and wife discussing how to raise their son with frustration of wanting to set a good example and keep him safe. It's a jerk move putting that burden on you 12 year old son of life and death.

We never even see Ma and Pa Kent have a conversation about their son as husband and wife. It's all angst by fear in front of third parties(classmates in the closet, school bus/mom confronts Martha,bullies in front of Pete,Pa Kent's death).

It isn't that they are shaming him but Pa wants Clark to be ready when he shows off his ability to the world but also he is uncertain if the world would ever be ready for Clark(as seen in BvS, they weren't). Pa wants Clark to be sure about the choices he makes and knows the consequences that may occur. "maybe" is basically Pa saying "I don't know"
Kinda goes back to Jor-El wanting Clark to have free will to choose his path in life unlike other Kryptonians.

Sure Clark had fun times as a kid but that wasn't what the film was focusing on.

 

[Json]

It isn't that they are shaming him but Pa wants Clark to be ready when he shows off his ability to the world but also he is uncertain if the world would ever be ready for Clark(as seen in BvS, they weren't). Pa wants Clark to be sure about the choices he makes and knows the consequences that may occur. "maybe" is basically Pa saying "I don't know"

That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is again in the writers choice of thinking that ideology shouldn't exist with the "Americana" Pa and Ma Kent.

The whole father and son via the Bible wasn't in the comics prior to Donner's Superman. He grafted it onto what was there but not at the exclusion of what the comics laid out. MOS adds a bunch of stuff that aren't comic cannon(at least not that I'm aware of) like the natural birth or Lara and Jor-el not dying together as the ship launches. That is minor stuff that can be massaged over and still hit the overall beats that comic lays out. The fact Smallville is where Clark gets his values that influence Superman is something they completely ignored in favor of being an alien is hard which again, isn't at odds with that Americana stuff except that the writers felt that it didn't mesh. The tv show Smallville did both and it did it fine for the most part in early seasons.

Kinda goes back to Jor-El wanting Clark to have free will to choose his path in life unlike other Kryptonians.

Jor-el literally presents him with the Superman suit after saying he should have freedom of choice is to tell him what he should do. Jor-el makes the choice for him. Clark never in that scene tells him he what he aspires to.



Clark only ask questions about the past. Never speaks about his future and what he wants. We know only what Jor-el wants for his future.

The movie never makes the case for why he wants to be Superman instead of firefighter or Doctor, or Mr. Smith goes to Washington.

Begins does it in one line of dialogue. "As a symbol I can be incorruptible."

Sure Clark had fun times as a kid but that wasn't what the film was focusing on.

That is the crux of why Snyder and Goyer's version gets such blowback from part of fandom.

You don't need to focus on happiness at the expensive of the "suffering Superboy"

Look at Batman Begins. Batman is born of seeing his parents murdered. 89' tells only about that event and its effect on him.

In Begins the first scene is optimistic. A boy sitting on a train with his parents listening to to his father's hopes for him and the city. The next two flashbacks are a murder and an attempted murder and Bruce getting beaten up and slapped. The movie gives you a gamut of emotions in a dark story.

Just one scene of a happy family. That one scene reverberates through the dark, gritty story. One optimistic thread in an otherwise dark story.

Nothing like that exist in a Superman movie? Goyer and Snyder are just expecting the audience to cheer cause he puts on a suit and punches people. Like getting the answer to the math problem with no work shown.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. The problem is again in the writers choice of thinking that ideology shouldn't exist with the "Americana" Pa and Ma Kent.

The whole father and son via the Bible wasn't in the comics prior to Donner's Superman. He grafted it onto what was there but not at the exclusion of what the comics laid out. MOS adds a bunch of stuff that aren't comic cannon(at least not that I'm aware of) like the natural birth or Lara and Jor-el not dying together as the ship launches. That is minor stuff that can be massaged over and still hit the overall beats that comic lays out. The fact Smallville is where Clark gets his values that influence Superman is something they completely ignored in favor of being an alien is hard which again, isn't at odds with that Americana stuff except that the writers felt that it didn't mesh. The tv show Smallville did both and it did it fine for the most part in early seasons.




Jor-el literally presents him with the Superman suit after saying he should have freedom of choice is to tell him what he should do. Jor-el makes the choice for him. Clark never in that scene tells him he what he aspires to.



Clark only ask questions about the past. Never speaks about his future and what he wants. We know only what Jor-el wants for his future.


That is the crux of why Snyder and Goyer's version gets such blowback from part of fandom.

You don't need to focus on happiness at the expensive of the "suffering Superboy"

Look at Batman Begins. Batman is born of seeing his parents murdered. 89' tells only about that event and its effect on him.

In Begins the first scene is optimistic. A boy sitting on a train with his parents listening to to his father's hopes for him and the city. The next two flashbacks are a murder and an attempted murder and Bruce getting beaten up and slapped. The movie gives you a gamut of emotions in a dark story.

Just one scene of a happy family. That one scene reverberates through the dark, gritty story. One optimistic thread in an otherwise dark story.

Nothing like that exist in a Superman movie? Goyer and Snyder are just expecting the audience to cheer cause he puts on a suit and punches people. Like getting the answer to the math problem with no work shown.

As far as I know it was never specified with Kal El was born naturally or test tube in the comics but you also have multiple origins of character and this is just one of the multiple interpretations. In MOS, they have the codex which determines what role each person plays on Krypton. Kal-El's natural birth gives him free will to choose what path he takes. The suit he gives to Clark is just a garment from the House of El, his heritage. It's still Clark's choice to embrace it or not. JorEl let's Clark know he can choose to be something great to Earth. Something John knew but wasn't sure exactly how.

Not sure I get your Bible reference with the Donner Superman.

When I'm off I'll re watch the film because I know I'm forgetting right much.

 

[Benefited]

all good points.

the movie's priority function shouldn't just be to get us invested in clark, but to get us in invested in henry cavill as clark... because ultimately he is the one who has to carry the movie. showing us young clark give us more context, but it doesn't do anything to make the audience more familiar and comfortable around henry.

we barely get to spend any time with henry in this movie before he dons the cape. he mopes around for a bit, barely says anything at all, and is constantly cutting to flashbacks of the child version of himself. we never get to see him live his day to day life... the ups.. the downs... we never get a feel for his personality or his character. he is always kept at a distance.

this is why almost everyone currently playing a famous superhero has gone to be a beloved star... and why the guy playing THEE most famous superhero is still a c-list celebrity. it's like his superman never even happened.

Do you think maybe they are just protecting his limitations as an actor?I just don't think the guy has that type of natural charm and likeability,or charisma to play Superman.

But I'm not sure if the writing is bad in order to protect his shortcomings,or if the bad writing is whats hurting his character.

 

[Json]

As far as I know it was never specified with Kal El was born naturally or test tube in the comics but you also have multiple origins of character and this is just one of the multiple interpretations. In MOS, they have the codex which determines what role each person plays on Krypton. Kal-El's natural birth gives him free will to choose what path he takes. The suit he gives to Clark is just a garment from the House of El, his heritage. It's still Clark's choice to embrace it or not. JorEl let's Clark know he can choose to be something great to Earth. Something John knew but wasn't sure exactly how.

Byrne had a birthing matrix but that wasn't about natural or artificial birth. Just gestation.


Nope. That's not what that scene says. He tells him that the people of Earth can avoid Kryptons fate and because Clark is of both worlds and he's uniquely qualified. He's telling him to be something they can aspire to to. That's not him giving a choice.

He's telling him without Clark the Earth is doomed. Again a father giving his son a choice based on billions of people dying if he does nothing.

That's not a choice. That's like your mom setting up a date with the girl next door and saying she's dying of cancer but it's your choice to hang out with her and take her to prom. She raised you to be a gentlemen and look after others but it's your choice. She's got a tux and limo but it's totally your choice.

Not sure I get your Bible reference with the Donner Superman.

When I'm off I'll re watch the film because I know I'm forgetting right much.

"They only lack the light to show the way....I sent them you, my only son" aka Jesus. Jor-el in most origins just sends Clark out hoping he's safe anywhere but Krypton. It's a crapshoot.

I'm not trying to make anyone hate the movie. I just felt the movie was badly constructed for what kind of Superman movie they were aiming for. I don't need them to make my version of Superman. Just a good one.

 

[Alpha Male]

Do you think maybe they are just protecting his limitations as an actor?I just don't think the guy has that type of natural charm and likeability,or charisma to play Superman.

But I'm not sure if the writing is bad in order to protect his shortcomings,or if the bad writing is whats hurting his character.

They probably had the script first before they had Henry.

 

[Vandelay]

Watch those movies again. He wasn't on edge all the time. People get the impression that he was moody the whole time. They gave him more human reactions than making him come off as perfect, imo. Just that made him more interesting and gave him depth. People often call Superman boring because they see him as a boy scout and perfect, but when they made him or human than alien people complain and claim they want the boring boy scout

This.

I truly think the Synder-verse could have worked if they tweaked a few things.

1. He was kinda emo, but it's exactly how someone would have reacted in real life coming to terms with their power. I think Supes pops shouldn't have been killed off so soon and so stupidly in the first one. He should been there to direct Clark to be the friendly hero everyone knew.
2. There was too much devastation in the first one. Tone it down a little to save room for crazy things eventually would get.
3. BvS shouldn't have introduced anyone but Batman and Wonder woman...that shoehorned shyt with the rest of the justice league and no green lantern was a big missed opportunity. They should have slowed the universe down.
4. Lex should have been cast as someone else...Eisenberg wasn't horrible, but he wasn't all that menacing...I know he's Lex Luthor Jr...but no one knows that...
5. Should have been Bizarro instead of Doomsday. Doomsday should have been the first Justice League villain. Steppenwolf was so fukking wack its not even funny.

I think if these things were done, the universe could have been salvaged. shyt is garbage now.

 

[Lhark]

I still consider this as one of my favorite superhero movies

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Byrne had a birthing matrix but that wasn't about natural or artificial birth. Just gestation.


Nope. That's not what that scene says. He tells him that the people of Earth can avoid Kryptons fate and because Clark is of both worlds and he's uniquely qualified. He's telling him to be something they can aspire to to. That's not him giving a choice.

He's telling him without Clark the Earth is doomed. Again a father giving his son a choice based on billions of people dying if he does nothing.

That's not a choice. That's like your mom setting up a date with the girl next door and saying she's dying of cancer but it's your choice to hang out with her and take her to prom. She raised you to be a gentlemen and look after others but it's your choice. She's got a tux and limo but it's totally your choice.



"They only lack the light to show the way....I sent them you, my only son" aka Jesus. Jor-el in most origins just sends Clark out hoping he's safe anywhere but Krypton. It's a crapshoot.

I'm not trying to make anyone hate the movie. I just felt the movie was badly constructed for what kind of Superman movie they were aiming for. I don't need them to make my version of Superman. Just a good one.

You and I see that scene differently. JorEl presents an option. Clark is an adult and can make choices for himself. He didn't make Clark do anything. Clark already had it in himself to help humanity in some form or fashion.
IMO, MOS Superman isn't that far from Bryne's and Jurgens' Superman.

 

[Benefited]

As far as I know it was never specified with Kal El was born naturally or test tube in the comics but you also have multiple origins of character and this is just one of the multiple interpretations. In MOS, they have the codex which determines what role each person plays on Krypton. Kal-El's natural birth gives him free will to choose what path he takes. The suit he gives to Clark is just a garment from the House of El, his heritage. It's still Clark's choice to embrace it or not. JorEl let's Clark know he can choose to be something great to Earth. Something John knew but wasn't sure exactly how.

Not sure I get your Bible reference with the Donner Superman.

When I'm off I'll re watch the film because I know I'm forgetting right much.

Problem is I think I would have prefered a struggle to come to that decision.

This guy actually showed up in his Superman suit to turn himself in to Zod

There were absolutley 0 emotions on either side coming from Clark,I would have liked to either see some fear on his end. Or better yet maybe fear turned into excitement to meet his fellow Kryptonians and finding out he wasn't alone. I think if they would have focused in more on him wanting to belong and to desperately to not feel alone. It would have put alot more weight on him having to fight his fellow Kryptonians,and in the end having to kill Zod. I felt very little weight there,the did nothing to make us feel it,we were just supposed to

But yeah that still bothers me,and maybe since he is not that young in the movie,they didn't think they couldn't pull off the boyish excitment,nervousness, or him being naive. Maybe they thought that would make him look weak or something. But him just showing up out the blue with his superman suit on,extra cocky,like he been doing this for years?Wasn't really feeling that.

His reluctance to act is one of the things that made this movie great in the beginning. They did great in the beginning to show struggle people don't really see from superman and never have before. But half way through the movie they lost sight and went back to Supermanning up the place,and they haven't looked back since.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Problem is I think I would have prefered a struggle to come to that decision.

This guy actually showed up in his Superman suit to turn himself in to Zod

There were absolutley 0 emotions on either side coming from Clark,I would have liked to either see some fear on his end. Or better yet maybe fear turned into excitement to meet his fellow Kryptonians and finding out he wasn't alone. I think if they would have focused in more on him wanting to belong and to desperately to not feel alone. It would have put alot more weight on him having to fight his fellow Kryptonians,and in the end having to kill Zod. I felt very little weight there,the did nothing to make us feel it,we were just supposed to

But yeah that still bothers me,and maybe since he is not that young in the movie,they didn't think they couldn't pull off the boyish excitment,nervousness, or him being naive. Maybe they thought that would make him look weak or something. But him just showing up out the blue with his superman suit on,extra cocky,like he been doing this for years?Wasn't really feeling that.

His reluctance to act is one of the things that made this movie great in the beginning. They did great in the beginning to show struggle people don't really see from superman and never have before. But half way through the movie they lost sight and went back to Supermanning up the place,and they haven't looked back since.

In the novel I remember it was more like Clark was a little uncertain about Zod's intent mixed with a little bit of astonishment about that there were other Kryptonians.
Novel was based off the script so I don't know if they shoot more but took out due to run time or the script was changed while the book was written.

 

[Benefited]

This.

I truly think the Synder-verse could have worked if they tweaked a few things.

1. He was kinda emo, but it's exactly how someone would have reacted in real life coming to terms with their power. I think Supes pops shouldn't have been killed off so soon and so stupidly in the first one. He should been there to direct Clark to be the friendly hero everyone knew.
2. There was too much devastation in the first one. Tone it down a little to save room for crazy things eventually would get.
3. BvS shouldn't have introduced anyone but Batman and Wonder woman...that shoehorned shyt with the rest of the justice league and no green lantern was a big missed opportunity. They should have slowed the universe down.
4. Lex should have been cast as someone else...Eisenberg wasn't horrible, but he wasn't all that menacing...I know he's Lex Luthor Jr...but no one knows that...
5. Should have been Bizarro instead of Doomsday. Doomsday should have been the first Justice League villain. Steppenwolf was so fukking wack its not even funny.

I think if these things were done, the universe could have been salvaged. shyt is garbage now.

Doomsday was just as wack as Steppin Wolf bro

Nobody gives a damn about Steppin Wolf,but Doomsday is a big name villian that they should have gotten right. Not only did he look like crap,but he just didn't seem that menacing. Agree they should've slowed down the universe and worked there way up to Doomsday. Doomsday should have been the monster for a whole movie ,violating the justice league one at a time,like it seems Thanos is about to do to the avengers.

 

[2 Up 2 Down]

Doomsday was just as wack as Steppin Wolf bro

Nobody gives a damn about Steppin Wolf,but Doomsday is a big name villian that they should have gotten right. Not only did he look like crap,but he just didn't seem that menacing. Agree they should've slowed down the universe and worked there way up to Doomsday. Doomsday should have been the monster for a whole movie ,violating the justice league one at a time,like it seems Thanos is about to do to the avengers.

That was my main problem with BvS. Doomsday should've been in the background working his way up to the Trinity fight. Hell BvS could've been a 2 parter if they wanted to get it right

 

[Json]

You and I see that scene differently. JorEl presents an option. Clark is an adult and can make choices for himself. He didn't make Clark do anything. Clark already had it in himself to help humanity in some form or fashion.
IMO, MOS Superman isn't that far from Bryne's and Jurgens' Superman.

What options does he present? Clark never ask him for help about his future. He ask questions about why he sent him here. Why didn't they come with him?


Compare that scene to Batman Begins.

Ra's gives him a sword to kill and join the League. Bruce tells him no and that there's a different way. That's not how he wants to do it. He doesn't walk out of the League of Shadows knowing he wants to be Batman. Just reinforces that he's not a murder. And he still believes in justice despite not getting it for his parents. And Gotham is worth saving.

Nothing about that scene hits any of those notes. Clark never voices what he wants or doesn't want. He can help people but never talks about what scale of help he wants to do. Help a city? help a neighborhood? help the world? Does he think he can do more?