Lets Talk African History: The Moors. Who Were They?

[Bawon Samedi]

Like the Griots of the West side, it's a oral tradition. I'll help you anyway I can just ask mate. PM me.

Thanks.

 

[Sinnerman]

Did the Moors ever invade the Mali Kingdom?

No. If anything Mali and other West Africans were giving Berbers/Moors the work throughout Medieval history.

I think he might be referring to the moorish conquest of the Songhai Empire?

 

[Bawon Samedi]

I think he might be referring to the moorish conquest of the Songhai Empire?

I'm aware but even that was only thanks to European support specifically when it came to their muskets and canons. Before that I heard the Moors/Moroccans were getting that work by the Songhai especially in the desert.

 

[Sinnerman]

I'm aware but even that was only thanks to European support specifically when it came to their muskets and canons. Before that I heard the Moors/Moroccans were getting that work by the Songhai especially in the desert.

Agreed. And yeah, almost the entire army was composed of Spaniard and other european mercenaries I think.

You know the Songhai probably could have eliminated the Moroccans like fifty years prior to that invasion too

After a request from the Moroccan sultan Muhammad Al-Arak, to cede the salt mines of Taghaza, Ishaq I sent a group of 2000 mounted men to raid a market town in the Dara valley of southern Morocco with instructions to avoid killing anyone. This was intended as a show of strength.[1]

There was a more detailed account of this in a book that I read, but the impression I got was that the Songhai were FAR more powerful than the Moroccans at the time.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Agreed. And yeah, almost the entire army was composed of Spaniard and other european mercenaries I think.

You know the Songhai probably could have eliminated the Moroccans like fifty years prior to that invasion too



There was a more detailed account of this in a book that I read, but the impression I got was that the Songhai were FAR more powerful than the Moroccans at the time.

Yeah, I think I read that passage and theres much MORE. Its a big myth that won't go away that the "Caucasoid" North Africans were more advanced than the lowly "Negroid" West Africans. If anything it was the other way around and West Africans were more developed because they were always farmers because that they had settlements much earlier than their Berber neighbors.

This whole thing is similar to Egypt vs Nubia/Sudan.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Again for those who think modern day Northwest Africans are exactly the same as those in the past.

"The trans-Saharan gold and salt trade as well as the trans-Saharan slave trade played an important role in population movements connecting sub-Saharan and Mediterranean economies during the Middle Ages. The slave trade alone is said to have transported more than 9 million slave soldiers and domestic servants along the trans-Saharan route. In this study, we present the genomic analysis of two human individuals from a cave site in the area of present-day Morocco which were directly dated to the Medieval period. The samples were processed in a designated ancient DNA lab and the genomic data obtained shows standard patterns of authentic ancient DNA with low levels of contamination. Both individuals – which represent the first ancient genome sequence data from North Africa – do not exhibit particular genetic affinities to modern North Africans or any other present-day population in published genotype data sets despite relatively extensive data has been produced from many areas of Africa. In fact, the most parsimonious way to model them genetically is as two-source admixture between Mediterranean Europeans and Southern Africans. The lack of archaeological context of the two individuals opens up various alternatives to explain their genomic pattern. Both individuals could represent a Medieval African population without population continuity to modern-day populations. Alternatively, both Mediterranean Europe and Southern Africa are known source regions in the Arab slave trade, thus they could potentially represent the offspring of slaves of different origin. The Arab slave trade extended over a longer period and may have involved more slaves than its transatlantic counterpart and our data might provide the first genetic insight into this historical process and the people who suffered in it. Our results highlight how archaeogenetic research can shed lights into historical events and long-distance population movements while opening new questions for the interpretation of the data."

Oral Presentation — ASN Events

 

[LoStranger]

Like I said and read the Ops. Mixing was not the significant change in NW demographic change(especially not for Algeria or Tunisia) but instead foreigners migrating to a sparsely populated area and absorbing the local African/black population.

@Diasporan Royalty I'm not sure about this because if that's the case then why do most Berbers of the Maghreb including the lighter skinned ones still carry African paternal genomes at a predominant rate? (E3b/M81) If Europeans widely populated an already sparse area then shouldn't European male lineages be far more represented in modern North West African genetic samples then African lineages? We only see somewhat high female European lineages in Berbers...which seems to coincide with the idea that it really was admixture between African men (moors) and European females (with some Arab males mixed in of course) that really changed the complexion of the Maghreb.

I'm aware but even that was only thanks to European support specifically when it came to their muskets and canons. Before that I heard the Moors/Moroccans were getting that work by the Songhai especially in the desert.

This is true, but it is also important to remember that Songhai wasn't attacked by the true Berbers/Moors. Songhai was attacked by the Saadi Dynasty of Morocco, from what I've studied the Saadi were Arabs and by Arabs I mean ethnic Arabs as they claim their origin to the Arabian Peninsula through Prophet Muhammad's daughter. I also remember reading they actually fought against the Berbers of Zentana and Masmuda descent to gain wider control of Morocco before they invaded Songhai .... (Can anyone confirm this?)

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@Diasporan Royalty I'm not sure about this because if that's the case then why do most Berbers of the Maghreb including the lighter skinned ones still carry African paternal genomes at a predominant rate? (E3b/M81) If Europeans widely populated an already sparse area then shouldn't European male lineages be far more represented in modern North West African genetic samples then African lineages? We only see somewhat high female European lineages in Berbers...which seems to coincide with the idea that it really was admixture between African men (moors) and European females (with some Arab males mixed in of course) that really changed the complexion of the Maghreb.

I didn't mean just Europeans but also Arabs(which you can see in their paternal line). Not only that but we KNOW European migrations were mostly female based(like you said). But more importantly its possible for certain Haplogroups to become replaced by others. Maghbrebi with still carry European R at 15%. We see something like this with Ashkenazi Jews when it comes to their male side.

This is true, but it is also important to remember that Songhai wasn't attacked by the true Berbers/Moors. Songhai was attacked by the Saadi Dynasty of Morocco, from what I've studied the Saadi were Arabs and by Arabs I mean ethnic Arabs as they claim their origin to the Arabian Peninsula through Prophet Muhammad's daughter. I also remember reading they actually fought against the Berbers of Zentana and Masmuda descent to gain wider control of Morocco before they invaded Songhai .... (Can anyone confirm this?)

I always assumed Songhai was attacked by a native Moroccan dynasty. Also the bolded sounds very interesting and would actually shoot a hole in the myth that the Moors were responsible for the destruction of African civilization that some try to say.

 

[LoStranger]

I didn't mean just Europeans but also Arabs(which you can see in their paternal line). Not only that but we KNOW European migrations were mostly female based(like you said). But more importantly its possible for certain Haplogroups to become replaced by others. Maghbrebi with still carry European R at 15%. We see something like this with Ashkenazi Jews when it comes to their male side.

Not to be a lazy b*stard but could you show evidence of that 15% R, thnx

I always assumed Songhai was attacked by a native Moroccan dynasty. Also the bolded sounds very interesting and would actually shoot a hole in the myth that the Moors were responsible for the destruction of African civilization that some try to say.

So did I but as I did more research I read some sources that stated the Saadi Dynasty actually fought against an earlier dynasty in Morocco which were of Zenata Origin. I'm not 100% sure on this yet but I'm searching for additional sources and books to validate my claim.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Not to be a lazy b*stard but could you show evidence of that 15% R, thnx

See Arredi et al. (2004) and also Berbers like the Kabyle are said to gave around 15% R.

So did I but as I did more research I read some sources that stated the Saadi Dynasty actually fought against an earlier dynasty in Morocco which were of Zenata Origin. I'm not 100% sure on this yet but I'm searching for additional sources and books to validate my claim.

Yeah please post the source because I remember it being a Moroccan king trying to ally with Songhai against Ottomans but the Songhai king refused and so they invaded. Something like that happened.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

@Gebor

 

[Bawon Samedi]

This lady IS the most KNOWLEDGEABLE person on the Moors. Listen to her and not these clown ass Youtube Hoteps who think the Berbers were white while trying to claim the Moors as Black.


^She actually knows what she is talking about.

 

[Dominic Decoco]

I got the golden age of the moors and the moors in Spain for Xmas. Also barbarian cruelty.

Can't wait to read them.

GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR was dumb expensive. ($160)

 

[Bawon Samedi]

I got the golden age of the moors and the moors in Spain for Xmas. Also barbarian cruelty.

Can't wait to read them.

GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR was dumb expensive. ($160)

DAMN!!!! You can get the PDF for free online! Hell I have a free version.

When it comes to older books make sure you can find it online as a PDF before purchasing.

 

[LoStranger]

I got the golden age of the moors and the moors in Spain for Xmas. Also barbarian cruelty.

Can't wait to read them.

GOLDEN AGE OF THE MOOR was dumb expensive. ($160)

$160 dollars nikka? refund that shyt and get it online for free