Jokic is considered better than curry?

[Lakerman0834]

Jokic team been injured past 2 years and he got them into playoffs curry with injured team was lotto bound

 

[murksiderock]

Giannis getting all the praise for beating a depleted nets team and beating a suns team that only made it to the finals because they played hobbled teams is hilarious.

The second he won the finals, they ran with him being the best player in the world.

I do think Giannis has separated himself as the best player in the present, but there alot if questions I need answered regarding where people want to elevate him historically (because people are definitely talking about him in All-Time terms now)...

I gotta see more. That 4thQ of G6 abd G7 vs Boston were underwhelming and a number of the "old guard" were held to much higher standards of performance in those games in their past. This is on top of what we saw from Giannis every postseason besides the '21 playoffs that he got all the fortunate breaks...

He's the best player now by a considerable margin in my opinion, but when people are ranking him historically, nah. His record is not that great...

Yup. At this point i prefer just listing the top 8-10 that could be top 5 at any given point. The issue is there's no set criteria for what makes someone better than another player, esp once all this subjective, agenda-driven stuff comes into play.

Reg season-wise, statistically Jokic, Giannis, and Embiid are the kings. Their per-minute production/PER the past 2 years shyts on everyone. Playoff-wise... Kawhi was PER king in 2021; more efficient than KD in a similar # of games. Butler was king in 2022 followed by Giannis and Luka. But their teams were either injured or not good enough.. and no excuses is the understanding for years now.

But the no excuses and no context is what makes these lists inherently volatile. i.e. if LAC somehow found durability and wins the title next June, Kawhi will become top 2 or #1 in next year's ESPN/CBS/SI's rankings, by virtue of a team accolade.

If Kawhi leads another title run The Culture is gonna throw him super high on the All-Time boards...

To be honest, the debate of where Steph is ranked now is near-meaningless.

He's solidified a legitimate top-10 ever resume, and current player rankings is really beneath where he stands in the game. The same applies to Bron. As the more time goes on, I've come to look at these rankings as more of a discussion on what players can do to stamp their name in the history books, which if you've already done that, it doesn't really matter exactly where you're ranked against [current] players who're still trying to do that.

This is 100 and really where I'm at with it too. It no longer matters where Curry is today. The longer he can extend his prime and keep GS in contention, is what's gonna crystallize his historical standing (which is already fantastic) even more...

 

[IIVI]

To the first paragraph:

Never in NBA history has winning the championship been the qualifier to being considered best player alive. This is some 2010s era shyt, this "can't put him there if he hasn't won it all"...

Your game and performance is what gets you in the conversation...

To your second paragraph:

Steph won the MVP in 2015 and most people have been saying he deserved that FMVP since he followed up that year with what he did in '16, don't do that. He's always gotten his respect for '15...

The Durant years, sure there was some push and pull, but we always said that was Steph's team even if we didn't all think he was the best player on the team...



Putting Tatum over Embiid is egregious...



Giannis has separated himself from the pack. Steph has the strongest argument of the rest as #2 but there is no great separation between the 2nd, and about 8th, players in basketball right now. They are all deserving...

I get what you're saying, however to the bolded, that's why I emphasized this from my original post:

Remember going into game 4, Boston was up 2-1 and with 5:00 minutes in the fourth quarter the Celtics were leading 94-90 as both teams played high-level defense. However, Curry's 10 points during that time made the difference (final score 107-97) and evened the series. That's maybe the pure definition of clutch when it comes to basketball right there.

Those were some very difficult points dude scored in a very high pressure situation when the series was practically on a hinge.
Then did the same the next couple games to close them out and win the ring. In terms of on-court feats and individual play, that's pretty much what it's about.

What Curry did during that time was what basically solidified top-player status to me. All these guys are unique in what they bring more or less, so there is some splitting atoms, but I'm going to give the go-ahead to the guy who recently played high-level basketball on the biggest stage against a top-tier defense in clutch time.

Even in terms of pure skill: I like what Jokic and Doncic bring as jumbo playmakers, I like what Embiid and Giannis both bring as two-way players as well. However, Steph is good as a playmaker as the first two, is the best on and off-ball shooter (the 2nd factor affording great flexibility for the team) and two-way player at the guard position. To say Curry gets the nod as the top spot, I don't think is a reach.

 

[Paper Boi]

i think yes.

obviously not all time, but right now yeah.

 

[4-Rin]

Jokic team been injured past 2 years and he got them into playoffs curry with injured team was lotto bound

Not accurate breh, Dubs had a winning record when Curry played that season. They only landed in the play-in tournament because they kept losing games whenever he didn't play due to injury.

It's the equivalent of blaming Bron for the Lakers missing the playoffs last season.

 

[Primetime]

If Kawhi leads another title run The Culture is gonna throw him super high on the All-Time boards...

He’s 1 reg season MVP + 1 more title from entering that ATG Teflon category imo.

With Wall, PG, and the depth his team is talented enough to be a 65+ win force like the ‘16 Spurs. Which would be his best route for MVP. It’s really the most glaring omission from his resume.

 

[staticshock]

1) There's degrees of mediocrity just as there's degrees of greatness.
2) Leading team success matters.

I know Trae is your superstar player but come on breh

Trae led the league in points and assists..he can’t help that the 2nd best player was hurt majority of the season last year & DeAndre Hunter hasn’t taken the leap expected of him yet.

Trae was awful in the Miami series but it’s crazy to use that to judge his worthiness. He did what Luka did a year before..leading his team to the conference finals when NOBODY gave them a shot of winning any series.

He dismantled New York & Philly & even gave Milwaukee a scare. The Hawks couldn’t stop Middleton in 2021. If they could that series was going to be way different because Trae was balling against them too.


Y’all can’t say “it’s his defense” when Ja & Luka are trash on defense as well.

Y’all can’t say “he doesn’t lead them anywhere” when he did a full season before Ja & Luka did.

 

[Shadow King]

Trae led the league in points and assists..he can’t help that the 2nd best player was hurt majority of the season last year & DeAndre Hunter hasn’t taken the leap expected of him yet.

Trae was awful in the Miami series but it’s crazy to use that to judge his worthiness. He did what Luka did a year before..leading his team to the conference finals when NOBODY gave them a shot of winning any series.

He dismantled New York & Philly & even gave Milwaukee a scare. The Hawks couldn’t stop Middleton in 2021. If they could that series was going to be way different because Trae was balling against them too.


Y’all can’t say “it’s his defense” when Ja & Luka are trash on defense as well.

Y’all can’t say “he doesn’t lead them anywhere” when he did a full season before Ja & Luka did.

Once again, there's degrees of limitations/greatness on one side of the ball or the other.

Atlanta overachieved last year largely because Benamin Simmons was scared to finish over Trae under the rim and is a scoring liability.

Take the homer glasses off.

It's his defense.

 

[IIVI]

I agree with everything y’all said. Let me ask y’all something though..we all know Trae is limited on defense, but so are Ja, Luka, Dame, Jokic & others, but why is Trae the only one who’s defense is used against him?

If all these guys are liabilities on defense, how the fukk is a guy who led the league in total points and assists ranked lower than Ja & Luka?

Trae's biggest problem is Luka fans are loud as fukk. That's basically it. In addition, it's lot of noise from European fans.

It's actually one of the reasons why I'm happy the NFL season started, because the NBA takes have become even more with the game being so global now. The NFL ain't innocent by any means, but what's worse than American bad takes? Worldwide bad takes on top of American bad takes.

Look at that list again (outside of Curry and Giannis who won a championship):
Jokic
Luka
Embiid

If you're going to mention these names then Trae absolutely belongs there. Dude even beat one of those names on that list in a series. When you factor in shots made and assists I think Trae generated the most offense in the league last year. If Luka or Jokic had that stat you know how ridiculous the hype would be?

Again, this is coming from a big Luka fan but I got Trae right there with him on equal terms if not I might give the nod to Trae because I think dude has made more with less throughout his career.

 

[mbewane]

And why is no one mad Embid being ranked higher in than Curry

Cause Jokic got two MVPs while Embiid doesnt (and being a Euro doesn't help neither).

Anyway the only guy I feel that is in the discussion with Steph at this point is Giannis. The other guys either haven't proven themselves in the playoffs (Luka, Jokic, Jojo...) and/or have had recent injuries that make it hard to really rank them (KD, Bron, Kawhi...)

 

[Guess Who]

Embiid ain’t top 5. He hasn’t earned it yet. He’s had great rosters, too, yet he still hasn’t sniffed the conference finals.

I got:

-Giannis
-Curry
-Jokic
-Luka
-KD

After them I got:

-Kawhi
-Lebron
-Tatum
-Morant
-Embiid

Coming back to Embiid—he has to do better at imposing his will on playoff games in the clutch. Sometimes it’s fukking frustrating to watch dude settle for jumpers in the 4th instead of running the floor hard to get deep post position and punish dudes.

 

[firemanBk]

Cause Jokic got two MVPs while Embiid doesnt (and being a Euro doesn't help neither).

Anyway the only guy I feel that is in the discussion with Steph at this point is Giannis. The other guys either haven't proven themselves in the playoffs (Luka, Jokic, Jojo...) and/or have had recent injuries that make it hard to really rank them (KD, Bron, Kawhi...)

What counts as proving yourself in the playoffs lol
Only making/winning the finals?

 

[mbewane]

What counts as proving yourself in the playoffs lol
Only making/winning the finals?

There's obviously levels to success in the playoffs, which is what actually matters. Steph and Giannis are above the rest because they actually won, we can't act as if that counts for nothing. On top of being great RS players as the rest.

 

[The God Poster]

I agree with everything y’all said. Let me ask y’all something though..we all know Trae is limited on defense, but so are Ja, Luka, Dame, Jokic & others, but why is Trae the only one who’s defense is used against him?

If all these guys are liabilities on defense, how the fukk is a guy who led the league in total points and assists ranked lower than Ja & Luka?

Ja is more dynamic & can will his team simply off athleticism

Luka has shown he can be the focal point on a good playoff team

Everyone you named gets points taken off for bad defense. Trae being short & frail doesn’t help his cause

Add in most are now being real & acknowledging that run two seasons ago was more fluke than legit

 

[T.he I.nformant]

He’s the back to back MVP for goodness sake but honestly we’re splitting hairs with anyone from the top 5