Jimmy Butler's Run to the 2023 NBA Finals Is OBJECTIVELY More Impressive Than Any Run LeBron Had EDIT: @Rhakim Exposal Thread

[Professor Emeritus]

The 2018 celtics lost contender status after kyrie got hurt, he was the reason they were considered contenders

But when Giannis got hurt?

The 2018 Celtics, if anything, played BETTER in the ECF than the 2023 Celtics did. 2018 Bron had to have all-time GOAT games to beat them, while the 2023 just fukking folded four times without Jimmy even having to do that much most of the time.


2018:

Game 2: Bron lays down 42-10-12 on 16-29 shooting (5-11 from three), and the Celtics still won by 13 to go up 2-0
Game 4: Down 2-1 in a must-win game, Bron lays down 44-5-3 on 17-28 shooting (1-4 threes)
Game 6: Down 3-2 and facing elimination, Bron has 46-11-9 on 17-33 shooting (5-7 threes)
Game 7: Completes the comeback with 35-15-9 on 12-24 shooting (3-8 threes)


How are those not more impressive than Jimmy's games by a long shot? Butler hasn't had true all-time games since the 1st round. Bron had 3-4 of them in every round.



Comparing ECFs against the Celtics:

Bron in wins: 38-9-9 on 56% shooting, 12-22 threes
Butler in wins: 27-7-6 on 45% shooting, 5-13 threes

rest of 2018 Cavs: 68-35-9 on 44% shooting, 33% from 3pt
rest of 2023 Heat: 90-32-17 on 53% shooting, 50% from 3pt


If Boston was better in 2023, and Butler's supporting cast was worse, then why did Butler have to do SO much less to win games?



Claiming that Butler did more with less help against a better team make NO fukking sense. You could try to argue the first two rounds because they were so different that they're much tougher to compare, but that Bron was MUCH better than Jimmy in the ECF isn't under any doubt.

 

[Walt]

Win shares is based on how many wins you have, when only 2 teams have 12 wins of course he's going to be near the top in that stat.

But he's just 4th in win shares/48 and 6th in BPM. Even in VORP he was 5th until playing more games than the other guys pushed him into a 4-way tie for 2nd. Wanting to make this about advanced stats is odd. How does that make it an all-time run when he's not even clearly top this year?

There are a ton of other runs where players were DOMINANT above the competition in those stats their year.






I already said that Jimmy definitely should have been the ECF MVP. But the fact that the voting was even close does question whether it's the GOAT run. If it was, it wouldn't be close.

And you can't attribute everyone's play to Jimmy. In 12 out of 17 games this postseason, the Heat have outscored their opponent when Jimmy was on the bench. In 201 minutes without Butler on the court, Miami has a 126.2 offensive rating while holding their opponents to 110.1 offensive rating. They've been playing elite whether he was on the court or not.






I never said a word about that, so don't know why you including it in your reply to me.

Win shares is based on how many wins you have, when only 2 teams have 12 wins of course he's going to be near the top in that stat.

I. It's not based solely on that, but also on your contributions to those wins
II. Wins in the playoffs: a big deal!

But he's just 4th in win shares/48 and 6th in BPM. Even in VORP he was 5th until playing more games than the other guys pushed him into a 4-way tie for 2nd.

"Just 4th" is a slant. That's still really great. And he was alone at second in the other categories until playing a bunch of games against two top level defenses, while Booker's numbers are frozen in place because he didn't win enough to earn the games that would've seen his numbers decline as well.

Wanting to make this about advanced stats is odd. How does that make it an all-time run when he's not even clearly top this year?

"all time run" is narrative. And it's an all time run in the context of circumstances. But I never called it the best run or compared it to any other run or any player. I just have observed the urge to push back against "Jimmy Butler is the GOAT" is an overcorrection, where now the counter-narrative is "he's lucky to be here even though really he kinda sucks, and the players who are clearly scrapheap fodder are actually way better than anyone imagined." Which is pretty silly.

And you can't attribute everyone's play to Jimmy. In 12 out of 17 games this postseason, the Heat have outscored their opponent when Jimmy was on the bench. In 201 minutes without Butler on the court, Miami has a 126.2 offensive rating while holding their opponents to 110.1 offensive rating. They've been playing elite whether he was on the court or not.

I wouldn't attribute it all to him. But I also wouldn't pretend the Heat win a single series without him. They don't.

I already said that Jimmy definitely should have been the ECF MVP. But the fact that the voting was even close does question whether it's the GOAT run. If it was, it wouldn't be close.

I think series MVP voting means pretty much nothing. I also don't know where this run ranks because I think that means very little too.

I never said a word about that, so don't know why you including it in your reply to me.

And I very clearly said it was a talking point prevalent in this thread, not specific to you, but I wasn't about to make a whole new post rather than just tack thoughts about it there.

 

[Walt]

The whole 'Jimmy almost had the biggest collapse in NBA history' is more to the point of highlighting how inconsistent he was, rather than overemphasizing that they nearly let a 3-0 lead slip. If they alternated wins and Butler still had the exact same performances, the same principles behind the argument would ring true.

Overall, he didn't play particularly well against the Celtics; he was looking dead in the water there for nearly half the series, unable to get anything going on offense because Boston cut off his water after they wouldn't bite on his pumpfakes. Because of the fact he had a run of bad performances when they were up 3-0 and it was Caleb Martin who basically resuscitated them, it doesn't look too good on his 2023 playoff resume.

It would be a different thing entirely if he was great throughout the entirety of the ECF and his teammates weren't doing their job (whilst losing three straight), but it was almost to the contrary, so the storyline around their near-collapse is more pronounced given his subpar play was at the center of it.

They had to win 4 games to get to the Finals and they did. He was a big part of that and almost closed the Celtics out during his worst game. He started looking like this against the Knicks, after he sprained his ankle. He already has the back issue. I expect him to have night where he has less lift and explosion. I'm more (pleasantly) surprised he has maintained his level of play even every other game, given the minutes he played and the responsibilities he shoulders.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Win shares is based on how many wins you have, when only 2 teams have 12 wins of course he's going to be near the top in that stat.

I. It's not based solely on that, but also on your contributions to those wins
II. Wins in the playoffs: a big deal!

But he's just 4th in win shares/48 and 6th in BPM. Even in VORP he was 5th until playing more games than the other guys pushed him into a 4-way tie for 2nd.

"Just 4th" is a slant. That's still really great. And he was alone at second in the other categories until playing a bunch of games against two top level defenses, while Booker's numbers are frozen in place because he didn't win enough to earn the games that would've seen his numbers decline as well.

Wanting to make this about advanced stats is odd. How does that make it an all-time run when he's not even clearly top this year?

"all time run" is narrative. And it's an all time run in the context of circumstances. But I never called it the best run or compared it to any other run or any player. I just have observed the urge to push back against "Jimmy Butler is the GOAT" is an overcorrection, where now the counter-narrative is "he's lucky to be here even though really he kinda sucks, and the players who are clearly scrapheap fodder are actually way better than anyone imagined." Which is pretty silly.

And you can't attribute everyone's play to Jimmy. In 12 out of 17 games this postseason, the Heat have outscored their opponent when Jimmy was on the bench. In 201 minutes without Butler on the court, Miami has a 126.2 offensive rating while holding their opponents to 110.1 offensive rating. They've been playing elite whether he was on the court or not.

I wouldn't attribute it all to him. But I also wouldn't pretend the Heat win a single series without him. They don't.

I already said that Jimmy definitely should have been the ECF MVP. But the fact that the voting was even close does question whether it's the GOAT run. If it was, it wouldn't be close.

I think series MVP voting means pretty much nothing. I also don't know where this run ranks because I think that means very little too.

I never said a word about that, so don't know why you including it in your reply to me.

And I very clearly said it was a talking point prevalent in this thread, not specific to you, but I wasn't about to make a whole new post rather than just tack thoughts about it there.

I think we're on almost the exact same page, just pushing back against different things in the thread.

 

[Osmosis]

A lot of typing going on but nobody can deny this Heat roster is better than any roster Bron had during his first Cleveland stint

 

[NYC Rebel]

SO NOW WE'RE PROPPING
UP RANDOM UNDRAFTED GUYS
WITH NO FINALS EXPERIENCE
TO WIN STAN WARS?

YOU nikkaS BEEN WORKING
OVERTIME SINCE THE MILWAUKEE DEFEAT
AND WE ALL KNOW WHY.

JUST KEEP PRAYING
AND HOPING JIMMY DOESNT
PULL THIS OFF BECAUSE A LOT
OF LEGACIES WILL BE EFFECTED.



​

Wasnt it you who STICKIED Scottie Pippen and his shenanigan Pro-Bron/Anti-MJ nonsense?

Who was saying “hey man! Scottie is right! He gets it!!” Who??

And you have the GALL to say Bron Stans are working overtime.

This shyt is serious to you because Bron haters STAY doing the most

You actually stickied that dust head shyt

 

[murksiderock]

Wasnt it you who STICKIED Scottie Pippen and his shenanigan Pro-Bron/Anti-MJ nonsense?

And you have the GALL to say Bron Stans are working overtime.

This shyt is serious to you because Bron haters STAY doing the most

nikka is a terrible mod ...

 

[10bandz]

So is this time for the "Better Heat Big 3 - Bron/Wade/Bosh vs Butler/Adebayo/Martin" thread?

 

[NYC Rebel]

nikka is a terrible mod ...

This niqqa really stickied Scottie needing an intervention moments to then say Bron stans are doing the most.

What group of niqqas were cheering that shyt on?

He really went “oh..Im going to sticky THIS.”

We have death of major athletes that cant get stickied that THAT dumb shyt can?

Bron haters STAY doing the most and just start projecting.

Trash mod and just sadistic haters.

 

[10bandz]

Day #10 of Rhakim's bender

 

[Conan]

I swear y'all don't even know what the fukk happens on a basketball court, you log on to see what the narrative is and run with it.


2018 Bron against the 55-win #2-seed Celtics: averaged 34-9-8 making 57% of his twos and 41% of his threes

2023 Butler against the 57-win #2-seed Celtics: averaged 25-8-6 making 43% of his twos and 35% of his threes



2018 Bron's #2 scorer is Kevin Love averaging 12.5ppg on 37.5% shooting (36% threes). No other players in double figures.

2023 Butler's #8 scorer is Kevin Love. Caleb Martin averages 19ppg on 60% shooting (49% threes), Gabe Vincent averages 16ppg on 49% shooting (52% threes), Bam Adebayo averages 15ppg on 48% shooting, Duncan Robinson averages 11ppg on 56% shooting (48% threes)



2018 Bron puts up 44-5-3 in a must-win Game 4 on 17-28 shooting (1-4 threes), 46-11-9 in a must-win Game 6 on 17-33 shooting (5-7 threes), and 35-15-9 in a must-win Game 7 on 12-24 shooting (3-8 threes)

2023 Butler's only 30-point game was in Game 1. In the critical Game 6 and Game 7, he shoots a combined 17-49 from the field (34.7%)



BUT BUTLER IS OBJECTIVELY BETTER! lol

Average 10 fewer ppg on far worse shooting, despite far better spacing and far better teammates, put up fewer notable performances, and look worse in the critical games, all against the same team with the same regular season success....but somehow it's "objectively better".

On top of that, they've been telling me it's 10x easier to score in 2023 than it was five years ago, but suddenly when Jimmy struggles to make shots despite GOAT spacing around him, it's

You can argue anything with facts/numbers.

 

[2legit]

Is Jimmy Butler's Playoff Run OBJECTIVELY better than any LeBron run? I will use OBJECTIVE metrics that are universally used to compare players. I'm comparing Jimmy Butler's run to all 16 of LeBron's playoff appearances.

Butler- 28.5 PPG

LeBron has 7 runs better


Butler- 5.7 APG

LeBron has 14 runs better

Butler- 7.0 Reb

All 16 LeBron runs are better

Butler- 48.3 FG%

LeBron has 10 runs better



Butler: -14.9 Plus/Minus

LeBron has 15 runs better


Butler- 25.8 PER

LeBron has 9 runs better

Butler- +7.2 BPM

LeBron has 15 runs better


By all OBJECTIVE measures, Butler does not have a more impressive run than LeBron's best run.

 

[Don Homer]

Is Jimmy Butler's Playoff Run OBJECTIVELY better than any LeBron run? I will use OBJECTIVE metrics that are universally used to compare players. I'm comparing Jimmy Butler's run to all 16 of LeBron's playoff appearances.

Butler- 28.5 PPG

LeBron has 7 runs better


Butler- 5.7 APG

LeBron has 14 runs better

Butler- 7.0 Reb

All 16 LeBron runs are better

Butler- 48.3 FG%

LeBron has 10 runs better



Butler: -14.9 Plus/Minus

LeBron has 15 runs better


Butler- 25.8 PER

LeBron has 9 runs better

Butler- +7.2 BPM

LeBron has 15 runs better


By all OBJECTIVE measures, Butler does not have a more impressive run than LeBron's best run.

Breh typed all this out just to be wrong as fukk

 

[CHICAGO]

You replied to me alone both times and said "You" both times, but you were actually talking about those other guys, you didn't mean me.

Goddamn breh you gotta be the worst mod in Coli history at this point.

IM TALKING ABOUT ALL
OF YOU nikkaS.

YOU ALREADY ADMITTED
THAT THIS IS THE 4TH JIMMY
THREAD YOUVE BEEN IN
THIS POST SEASON THROWING SALT.



​

 

[MoneyTron]

I don't agree with the thread premise but its funny to watch both sides tie themselves in knots.