Jesus Was A Real Person...There's No Debate...Read a Book

Professor Emeritus

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😔😔 Where is your proof of it? If I said Alexander the Great was raised from the dead you would want the evidence of it. I would have none to provide for you.


The strongest proof is that numerous followers were willing to die for that belief in the immediate aftermath.

Most Jews believed the Messiah would lead the Jews to victory over the Romans and establish God's Kingdom on Earth. Numerous would-be-messiahs were killed both before and after Jesus, and their followers dispersed in defeat and began looking for something else. Why was Jesus so different that his followers emerged victorious, rather than defeated, after his death? Why did allegiance to Jesus spread across the known world in mere decades and quickly outpace Judaism itself and even overtake the entire Roman kingdom if it was just a sob story about a discredited loser?
 

Professor Emeritus

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@Rhakim what are your thoughts on Bart Ehrman's viewpoints? Were you able to watch those videos posted from the OP and/or read any of his books??


I've read some of his opinions but not his books. My guess from what I've seen of him is that he'd probably be talking past me slightly because I don't believe in exactly the kind of "Jesus was just God faking to be a human" thing that certain modern evangelicals have warped Jesus's divinity into. I believe in a much more mystical interpretation of what Jesus was representing and embodying on Earth. My experience with Ehrman is that he also tends to overinterpret his evidence sometimes in a certain direction that I would disagree with. But I probably won't watch the videos anytime soon unless they're pretty short.
 

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? The genealogical history of Adam/Eve is explicitly laid out in great detail in the Bible. If you add the ages up from Adam to Abraham…you’re looking at the Earth being well less than 10k years old.


How would the author of Genesis have known all that genealogy and ages? The author of Genesis never identifies themselves, nor do the say where they got information about events thousands of years in the past, nor do they state that they are literal stories. In fact, some parts of Genesis (like the two contradictory creation accounts in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2) appear quite clearly to be written by different authors entirely.

How do you know that the authors weren't simply explaining aspects of God and creation through symbolic creation myths, just like say Native American creation myths, moreso than telling actual literal histories?
 

MMS

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😔😔 Where is your proof of it? If I said Alexander the Great was raised from the dead you would want the evidence of it. I would have none to provide for you.
alexander wanted to be like "his father" Amun, and Amun means hidden. So he became hidden from you.

Jesus wanted to be like his father, and to be where he is. And he is seated at the right hand of God the Father and he will come with glory to judge the quick and the dead.
 

Koichos

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now that is fascinating :whoo:

you know not to pull a @DoubleClutch but why are the "longer" names of God considered more significant than his established name given to Moses at Sinai?
God's mystical 'names' are not considered more significant; as a matter of fact they are not for general use and kept strictly in the background. Very few Jews are even aware of or pay more than a passing attention to them.

There is the Kuz"u (formed by taking the next letter in the Hebrew alphabet to each of the letters of
יְיָ אֱלֹקֵינוּ יְיָ from the Sh'ma, D'varîm 6:4) - the sofer writes this on the reverse of a m'zuzah opposite the words יְיָ אֱלֹקֵינוּ יְיָ.

‎ֹ
And also three others, namely:
i. the twenty-two-lettered title that is associated with the public b'rachah (blessing) administered by the kohanîm (which is printed in some very old mah'zorîm (holiday prayerbooks));

ii. the forty-two-lettered title that is associated with Creation (an acrostic poem composed by the first-century tanna ('teacher') ר׳ נְחוּנְיָה בֶּן הַקָּנָה consisting of seven lines of six words each is printed in some siddurîm (daily prayerbooks) before the Friday night poem L'cha Dodi ('Come, my darling, to greet the Bride') which is sung in all Jewish prayer-houses immediately before Shabbat commences); and

iii. the title of seventy-two-triples whose composition is described by our commentator Rash"i in his explanatory notes on the phrase
אֲנִי וָהוֹ which is concealed in three Torah-verses in Parashat B'shallah that consist of seventy-two letters each (14:19, 14:20, 14:21).
I mention exactly where these four 'names' are to be found to show that they are not 'secret' - but they are considered 'sacred words' and should not be used lightly or without reason by even the most learned Jew!

when you say Israel is in exile, are you not counting the creation of the Israeli nation-state in the middle east? :jbhmm: @Marks @010101 I gave Jahangirs shield "exile" to another character recently. Instead, he has "Alma Negra"
Galut is more than an ancestral homeland... prophecy, Temple (which can only come through prophecy), etc.
 
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MMS

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God's mystical 'names' are not considered more significant; as a matter of fact they are not for general use and kept strictly in the background. Very few Jews are even aware of or pay more than a passing attention to them.

There is the Kuz"u (formed by taking the next letter in the Hebrew alphabet to each of the letters of
יְיָ אֱלֹקֵינוּ יְיָ from the Sh'ma, D'varîm 6:4) - the sofer writes this on the reverse of a m'zuzah opposite the words יְיָ אֱלֹקֵינוּ יְיָ.

‎ֹ
And also three others, namely:

I mention exactly where these four 'names' are to be found to show that they are not 'secret' - but they are considered 'sacred words' and should not be used lightly or without reason by even the most learned Jew!


Galut is more than an ancestral homeland... prophecy, Temple (which can only come through prophecy), etc.
ok i appreciate it, i dont need to use things that are not nourishing to me. Once again thank you for your patience with me and with those around me.

I will attempt something, and give exile to another more powerful character of mine. The new promised land will be...



:jbhmm: Lakewood NJ. I need more time tho :whoa:
 

Koichos

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ok i appreciate it, i dont need to use things that are not nourishing to me. Once again thank you for your patience with me and with those around me.

I will attempt something, and give exile to another more powerful character of mine. The new promised land will be...



:jbhmm: Lakewood NJ. I need more time tho :whoa:

Ha! Lakewood is a world of its own.
 
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Prince.Skeletor

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Where do you get that idea? Letters of Paul making mention of Jesus are dated to 25 years after Jesus's death, the gospels and several other New Testament letters are dated to 30-60 years after Jesus's death, the Jewish historian Josephus wrote about Jesus 60 years after his death, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote about him 85 years after his death, etc.




If you study ancient history, you'll realize those are extremely timely sources compared to what you can find for most historical figures outside of Rome or Athens itself. Do you know of a particular historian writing about Jews in Galilee in the early 1st century who should have mentioned Jesus and didn't?

I agree with everything you said here, but a few nuances should be acknowledged.

1) All mentions of Jesus as you stated were several years to decades after his death.
2) Language was very different back then
3) The Bible has gone through centuries of re-writes.

All this to say that I think it should be fact that a man named Jesus was alive during those times, but he could have been a normal man like everyone else too.

Firstly, the telephone game. If people write a book about you decades after your death, during a time where documentation was not a thing like today expect alot of innacuracies.
Secondly, if you teleported back to the time of Jesus our command of the english language would not let us understand anything anyone was saying back then. For example, if we lived during those times and I said: Rhakim was a good person, everyday he used to make soup and potatoes and hand it out to poor people daily.
It would not be necessary that what I said was true or not, I was merely describing the person, the actions I described need not be true, I used those analogies to describe the person.
So everything from words, language and intention of language were all different back then.
And thirdly right now if you look at the new testament for example, that book has had more revisions than Adobe Acrobat Reader.
And which book do most Christians abide by and call the word of god? King James Version, the most recent version. How can you say, considering the telephone game, that the most recent book be the closest to the word of god written just when Britain cut ties with the pope and wanted to decouple catholicism from christianity only about a century or so after the end of the Byzantine empire?

So I agree with what you said, but it's important to acknowledge the muddy waters.
 

MMS

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@Rhakim

@MMS
What do you think of this video? It's real short video to watch.

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا ٱلْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ٱبْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ ٱللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـٰكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ ۚ وَإِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱخْتَلَفُوا۟ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّۢ مِّنْهُ ۚ مَا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا ٱتِّبَاعَ ٱلظَّنِّ ۚ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًۢا ١٥٧
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.1
make sure you hit the little play button


 

Professor Emeritus

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I agree with everything you said here, but a few nuances should be acknowledged.

1) All mentions of Jesus as you stated were several years to decades after his death.
2) Language was very different back then
3) The Bible has gone through centuries of re-writes.

All this to say that I think it should be fact that a man named Jesus was alive during those times, but he could have been a normal man like everyone else too.

Firstly, the telephone game. If people write a book about you decades after your death, during a time where documentation was not a thing like today expect alot of innacuracies.
Secondly, if you teleported back to the time of Jesus our command of the english language would not let us understand anything anyone was saying back then. For example, if we lived during those times and I said: Rhakim was a good person, everyday he used to make soup and potatoes and hand it out to poor people daily.
It would not be necessary that what I said was true or not, I was merely describing the person, the actions I described need not be true, I used those analogies to describe the person.
So everything from words, language and intention of language were all different back then.


First off, I'm not an "Inerrant Word of God" guy, so minor deviations don't bother me at all. Differences in the text only matter if it makes some fundamental difference in my faith. And when you talk about different translations, revisions, different manuscripts, etc......99% of that has zero impact on how I understand God. With the 1% that's left that has some slight impact, I do my studies and do the best I can.

I disagree that it's a telephone game, because that assumes a world in which one person knows "the truth" and they share it with one other person, and it's this individualistic process. In reality, Christianity came about as part of a community. Paul's letters were written in the 50s and describe events going back to the 30s, he makes clear that there is a large, well-connected Christian community centered around Peter, John, and the other apostles. So when the Gospels were written in the 60s and 70s, we're not talking about some lone wolf remembering his stories. 30-40 years after Jesus's death, there would still be plenty people around who were there when that shyt happened, and everyone else would have been hearing the same stories about Jesus for decades. If the Gospel writer tried to tell stuff wrong, he would have thousands of people all over his ass to expose him. Why would the people of the church adopt a text that contradicted the stories they already knew about Jesus from those who were there?

Of course, that doesn't mean everything in them is absolutely perfect. Eyewitnesses can be unreliable, even if you have a lot of them. Some events might have been jammed together to make the narrative flow more smoothly, some of the numbers might be off (for example, I think there's one crazy chained guy near the pig herders in one gospel, but two of them were there in another gospel). But those are minor details. If something was seriously wrong, like actions were being attributed to Jesus that weren't in line with his character, or new stories were being made up that no one had ever heard, then why would the community take that gospel seriously? That's why the Gospel of Thomas and other apocryphal gospels were never accepted by the community, and only became popular in fringe groups whose followers had nothing to do with the original Christians. The stories just plain don't match what was known of Jesus's life and often are out of character with the person they already knew Jesus to be.






And which book do most Christians abide by and call the word of god? King James Version, the most recent version. How can you say, considering the telephone game, that the most recent book be the closest to the word of god written just when Britain cut ties with the pope and wanted to decouple catholicism from christianity only about a century or so after the end of the Byzantine empire?

Most Christians? I don't even know 5% of Christians who think the King James version is some exclusive "word of god". That's a very fringe movement and not one any church I've ever gone to supports.

And the King James version isn't the "most recent" version, so I'm not sure what you mean by claiming that - there are numerous translations from the last 200 years that are based on a firmer manuscript foundation of the oldest available Greek texts.




It's also worth pointing out that, contrary to popular myth, no one church has ever had control over the Biblical text. The Church of Alexandria, the Church of Constantinople, the Church of Antioch, they all existed back then independent of Rome. Coptic texts of the Bible are just as old as the Greek texts and older than the Latin texts, so how could the church in Rome change the Bible if they knew the Egyptians had the Bible too and would expose them if it was altered in any significant way?
 

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Yes, he was real he is probably the biggest cult leader of All-Time today that cult has become a full blown religion called Christianity.
 
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You got three major world religions arguing over who Jesus is to this day :manny:

If he isn’t a real person, we are living in a world of illusion :banderas:
 
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Budda

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I've read some of his opinions but not his books. My guess from what I've seen of him is that he'd probably be talking past me slightly because I don't believe in exactly the kind of "Jesus was just God faking to be a human" thing that certain modern evangelicals have warped Jesus's divinity into. I believe in a much more mystical interpretation of what Jesus was representing and embodying on Earth. My experience with Ehrman is that he also tends to overinterpret his evidence sometimes in a certain direction that I would disagree with. But I probably won't watch the videos anytime soon unless they're pretty short.

What is this?:jbhmm:
 
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