Ben.
Heisenbrook
Remember you in that one thread a while back shytting on JKidd, always thought breh was overrated.
Nash is wayyy better btw
fukk no
Jason Kidd is one of the most overrated players ever
- Thread starter Street Knowledge
- Start date
Nash is wayyy better btw
Ben.
Heisenbrook
Breh went 0-8 against them in G7 and shot 28% for the seriesJason Kidd was horrible against the 2004 pistons but apparently he’s gonna be the reason they beat them with the spurs
It seems like the people saying he's overrated are valuing his scoring efficiency much higher than the people who are saying he's properly rated.
His scoring efficiency was definitely trash, but the defense, rebounding, ability to push tempo and control the flow of a basketball game all were elite. It's really no coincidence that the Suns ranked 3 and 2 in defensive efficiency his last two years there and dropped to 12th and 11th when he left and then the Nets were ranked 1st back to back in his first two years there (both resulting in a trip to the finals) after two years of ranking 22nd and 23rd.
His scoring efficiency was definitely trash, but the defense, rebounding, ability to push tempo and control the flow of a basketball game all were elite. It's really no coincidence that the Suns ranked 3 and 2 in defensive efficiency his last two years there and dropped to 12th and 11th when he left and then the Nets were ranked 1st back to back in his first two years there (both resulting in a trip to the finals) after two years of ranking 22nd and 23rd.
It's not just his scoring efficiency, it's his lack of scoring exigency, limited scoring skillset and not being a scoring threat and how that affected the offenses he led. As it relates to this argument, a point guard handles the ball more than any other player, so that means their impact should be largely about what happens on offense, should it not?
Then why are y'all completely ignoring the fact he led average-to-bad offenses during his prime years?
How many all-time great players of the modern era do we completely overlook them being average at their main role? If Kidd's career existed today would you be so quick to excuse him of not being able to run a high-level offense?
This ain't it.
Manipulating the data like this is one of the many reasons why he's overrated.
He played four and a half seasons in Phoenix, so I don't know why you're cherry-picking the last two seasons.
In his first full season the Suns traded for McDyess (their defensive anchor) which saw them ranked #6 on defense (compared to 20th the season before); keep in mind this was the same year that Avery Johnson completely dominated this supposed great defensive player Kidd in the playoffs. When McDyess left the following season the Suns dropped all the way down to the 19th-ranked defense.
Can you please explain to me why you're trying to attribute their defensive ranking in Kidd's final two seasons to him, yet leaving out the fact they were ranked 19th on that end the season before when he was on the team?
I'm just going to address this because we're not going to agree on the scoring aspect. But for everything above that, I will agree with you that if Kidd existed today with the same kind of relative scoring percentages he had in 2003 I wouldn't be so quick to excuse his offensive deficiencies simply because of how I rate the league average talent now vs then.
I would be surprised if his scoring didn't see a much better than average jump as lanes for him to score should open up more for him in today's era from teams having to respect his passing and his teammates scoring capabilities much more than they had to in 2003. His ability to shield the ball with his body and use strength to generate baskets off teams respecting his court vision and pass should sync up beautifully with today's game.
As for what I think changes, I think he would take less forced unbalanced ugly pull up 15-20 ft jumpshots in todays era and would probably be more inclined to putting his shoulder down, shielding the ball with his body and driving to the hoop to try to make something happen since he'd still be a relatively strong guy for the position in 2023. The paint is definitely a less crowded placed than it was from 99-2004. And I'm only speaking on scoring because we both know good and well his passing, man-defense, switch/off ball defense, ability to read and understand what the offense is going to do before they do it and his overall floor general abilities translates to any era.
Now as far as manipulating the data, there is no manipulation of data bro.
In his 4 and a half seasons in Phoenix they finished
20th
6th
19th
3rd
2nd
The 20th finish season was as you mentioned a half season. The 19th finish season was during the lockout year which was a strange year but whatever. If you want to build your case based on those two seasons then okay but from what I see we have 3/4 full seasons of being an elite defense and 2/4 of those seasons was without their defensive anchor you're giving a huge chunk of the credit of their 6th placed finish to.
So we have those 3/4 seasons of being an elite defense and then he moves over to the Nets and they finish in the top 5 in 4 of the 5 next seasons with the lone out of top 5 finish being a 7th place defense.
I don't know how you can think Kidd isn't making a huge impact with a 6/9 year run of being on a top 5 defensive team across both conferences on two different teams and that this isn't signaling something about how big his impact was on that side of the floor. And lets not forget in 2 of those 3 years they weren't top 5, they finished 6th and 7th. The 1 year his team didn't finish in the top 7 in that 9 year span, was a lockout season.
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The problem with this line of thinking is, other PGs during his time managed to be more efficient on much higher volume, so whatever offensive jump you believe Kidd would have (due to the more favorable scoring circumstances you believe exists today), all the other PGs would have too, which means he'd still be less efficient and less offensively-dominant than them.
And this is relative to his peers during his time -- peers whom aren't considered all-time great PGs.
And I'm putting my position aside of disagreeing with you over that point too, because Nash played during that same period and he was smaller, slower and less physical than Kidd, yet still managed to be a much more effective, efficient and higher volume scorer, and just definitively greater offensive force.
Do you not see the argument of him being overrated here because he couldn't even rise above middling competition at his own position, let alone match other all-time greats? I mean, when we talk about how great a player is in this context, it's usually against a backdrop of how much they dwarfed players at their own position and how dominant they were against the rest of the league, which Kidd particularly didn't and wasn't. He was a player who thrived in transition on offense and was the connective tissue on defense. He wasn't a Tier 1 player during his day. This is the same dude who couldn't even lead his team out of the 1st round for the first seven years of his career in the West, getting dominated by the likes of Avery Johnson in the playoffs.
My point is, you cherry-picked those two seasons to attribute the improvement on defense to Kidd, yet conveniently left out the season before when they were ranked 19th, so it seems to me you were curating a narrative based on your confirmation bias rather than laying everything out there in all its good/bad. In fact, I bet that you actually looked up that season and saw them ranked poorly on defense and chose to leave it out because it didn't suit your agenda, which inadvertently proves the theory right behind him being overrated because that's what you're doing by leaving that season out and only choosing to include the good.
Which further to that point - you're overemphasizing just how much impact/influence he had on the that end because Phoenix's defense wouldn't have dropped all the way down to 19th after being 6th the year before if it was largely down to Kidd. As a PG during that time he didn't have the same defensive value as a big man, so while yes, he certainly was a pivotal part in his team's defenses, it wasn't to the degree that you and others are making it seem, certainly not to a degree of being highlighted as some all-time great difference maker, which he'd need to be in order to make up for what he lacked on the other end.
Amerikan Melanin
Veteran
nikkas shytting on one of the greatest PG’s of all time? Smfh
Y'all really hating on Jason Kidd though. He doubled the Nets wins and took them to the Finals. He then lost the only player that could create their own shot, became the team's leading scorer AND led them back to the Finals...as a non-scoring PG.
mastermind
Rest In Power Kobe
So what?
He did it in the worst version of a conference in NBA history.
He had more talented squads in Phoenix only got out of the first round once.
He didn't lead elite offenses largely because of his own offensive limitations.
And it's not shytting on Kidd. He is a HOFer, but he is a few tiers below where you and many others rate him. That means he is overrated. No one said he is trash or garbage Except for you and others who keep insisting that.
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I'm not entirely sure why folks are running up in here posting shyt like this.
Y'all hate on much, much, much greater players on here all the damn time (hell, this subforum feeds off hating on today's players), yet this one thread trying to have a proper discussion about a past player's game/career is where y'all draw the line?
Taadow
The StarchBishop™️
Here is the problem though, Sir - he was supposed to be a scoring PG.
If JKidd could shoot, he could've been the greatest point of all-time skillwise.
He could get open at will, or get to the basket like a muffucca - but he was more of a Brickhouse than anyone Lionel Richie may have sung about.
That's how they'd lose, with the shots he used. -36-24-36 bricks, from his shooting hand
Jason Kidd's legacy IMHO is this:
A player like he is the best kind of player a team can have, that cannot be your teams' best player.
