Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

[TheDarceKnight]

It was a gradual shift that happened over the course of late 2008-early 2009 (damn, it's been that long?). He switched from trunks to black leather pants, grew his hair out (though he didn't adopt the cut you see today until late 2011 or so) and started relying on knee strikes and straight punches for offense. The attitude came gradually over the course of 2011-2012 between his New Japan work and stints in CMLL, as he started shaving the sides of his head, gesticulating weirdly and generally being an eccentric in and out of the ring. It's been quite the transformation to observe.

As for why? Well, NJPW had been trying to push him as their next "guy" since about 2003 (when they found out that he was the only guy that they had that could take an MMA fight and not completely embarrass himself) and it never really stuck. They kept pushing and pushing him, and they kept watching as Tanahashi eclipsed him in popularity and became the cornerstone of the promotion that he was supposed to be. The austere prodigy gimmick wasn't really working, and even the early stages of his CHAOS gimmick only worked so well. So, on an excursion to CMLL, he decided to indulge a bit in his weirder side, and you see the results from that decision.

Dude's probably the most popular guy in the promotion due to his style and charisma, and is likely only out of the IWGP Title scene by choice. It'll be interesting to see where he goes next.

Damn! You're breaking it down man. Thank you! What about Kenny Omega? He's new to New Japan, right? I heard he can speak fluent Japanese but chooses not to? As part of his character? I slept on AJ Styles too. JR was saying he's the best American to never wrestle in the WWE. I missed a lot of good shyt. I was into NOAH when it started up through the Marufuji/KENTA feud. Then when that was over I sort of drifted away from Puro. Do you think it was a good move for KENTA to go to the E?

I was a real big fan. I don't know if he had legit training or not, but I remember he wore some RVDDW/Reversal shorts and shirts. They're a grappling clothing company, and a lot of jiu-jitsu guys wear that stuff. I have a really cool RVDDW rash guard that I like to use a lot. I guess it would make sense if he was. I like that a lot of the Japanese wrestlers have background in Catch, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, etc.

 

[The Rainmaker]

Cody Hall was presented as the "young boy" of the Bullet Club (Also as"the son of the legendary Scott Hall", which received a good pop), and they said he had to earn their colors. So he is an "apprentice", carrying the jackets and whatnot.

Also, to be fair, both Tanahashi and Okada had some prominent injuries (Both had taped ribs and Okada had a taped knee), and they both lost. I think it's more like a "wait and see" situation. Last year I thought they were planting the seed of a CHAOS implosion, with Yujiro and Iizuka departing and Okada and Nakamura battling on the finals of the G1. But who knows.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

After thinking about it, the main of the Dome show was perfect. I was surprised as I thought it was definitely Okada's torch moment...but it all makes sense.

1. Nick Jackson was the ONLY guy on the WK main card younger than Okada. Think about that for a second. At 27, he's even five years younger than Ibushi and Naito. Not just to say that its super impressive on his behalf, but also, there is NO ONE coming up behind him. The only two young boys getting burn this year are Sho and Yohei and they'll be jr's. Basically, NJ is in this great space right now with a deep roster, but it's an old one and fresh blood isn't coming soon. Okada is clearly a star, but the problem with handing off the torch to him now and having him finally overcome Tana is...what the fukk does he do after that? Aside from a feud with Naka for the gold he has conquered just about everyone. The only guys he hasn't beat in a title challenge yet are Naka, Ishii, and Shibata. Naka/Okada will absolutely happen eventually and be a big deal, but Ishii is 42 and falling apart and who knows if NJ will ever turn to him to be a main event guy. And Shibata, with his history, may never be trusted that much again. It says a lot that the tag titles are the first titles he's won anywhere in his entire career.

2. The business is doing well. For as much as we from a distance just for the sake of consumption want to see these moments now and move onto the new matchups that Okada has left, playing it safe and keeping Okada/Tana a thing has slowly but steadily brought attendance back up these last three years. The Japanese fans aren't getting tired of it. As someone else pointed, they're used to longer deals. It was basically eight years until Misawa finally passed the torch to Kobashi. Now it's not going to be anything crazy like that, but we're into their fourth year as a feud and its still hot.

3. Okada needs this and it's a tremendous story arc. The last year, the build to this match, and the match itself are absolutely perfect if you put them in context. Late 2013, Okada puts Tana away for good. Tana says he'll never challenge him for the belt again if he loses...and Okada puts him down. Emphatic. Job done Okada then goes into the Dome, disrespects the shyt out of his supposed rival Naito, and puts him down as well. The dude is out there looking like god. It takes AJ and the Bullet Club to get the belt off of him, but those were two screw jobs. In the G1 he beats AJ clean, then beats Naka in the final. There is no reason all of 2014 for Okada to not think he is the top dude in the compay. Tana wins the belt, whatever. He's been casual the entire build. After last year he thinks he has Tana's number and the result is a given.

Tana, on the other hand, has been grinding all year. In the G1 especially he was overmatched sometimes and pulled wins out of nowhere with roll-ups. In his rematch with Ishii he dug deep and out-manned him. Shibata broke him down, but in the rematch he dug even deeper and gutted out a win in a war. Okada was basically coasting all year, while Tana was in the trenches gutting shyt out. In the Dome he was trying to chump Tana the same way he did Naito but then the two moments I found telling, was Tana reversing the two big match Rainmakers he used this year. The German Suplex lead in he used against AJ, and the backslide he used against Naka.

Then look at the prematch video. It's a recap of Tana's career, with him talking while in the NJ dojo, and highlights of the emotion he's shown for over a decade. Okada? Posted in a suit in some elaborate setting, just chilling. Then the post-match, Okada crying his eyes out as he walked away.

This is going to humanize Okada. For the FIRST time ever, when he was walking away crying, Okada was a sympathetic character. Not just the perfect young genius that wins everything. The dudes perfect world came crashing down, everything he had done to dominate up until that point wasn't enough, and he's left with no answers and Tana telling him how far away from the top he is.

I think this year, we see Okada in some grueling matches where for the first time he shows fighting spirit, and for the first time, a Tana/Okada match has Okada as the fiery underdog babyface.

 

[TrueEpic08]

I know the intention is for this storyline to take Okada to new heights as the Ace of the company. But it was still an unnecessary decision.

Gedo's done a good job since he got the book but he has also made some important mistakes that tend to get overlooked because the in ring work is considered so damn good and by comparison, New Japan booking is miles better than any other big promotion in the world.

And Okada's journey has nothing to do with Kobashi's. Both stories are completely different. Not saying it wont work - it may very well help Okada - but that was a bad comparison.

Wasn't trying to necessarily compare Okada's journey to Kobashi's. I was just trying to make the point that losing streaks aren't necessarily terrible things in and of themselves. Context and execution are important as well. I agree that it's unnecessary on its face, but this could work out quite well.

While I could think of many mistakes that Jado and Gedo have made over the past few years (especially regarding native talent), I'm wondering where you're seeing them falter in their booking. Mind elaborating on that?

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Damn! You're breaking it down man. Thank you! What about Kenny Omega?

Kenny was signed to WWE developmental when they used Deep South Wrestling in 2005/2006. After his release he did the Northeastern indy scene, before getting brought over to DDT (small Japanese company. At the time it was basically an indy, now however arguably the #2 or #3 promotion in Japan) and started teaming with Ibushi as the Golden Lovers. The dude, obviously, has that weird charisma and instantly got him over. DDT is an experiment in bringing "entertainment" (American sttyle) fukkery to Japan, but of course when its time to go the matches are still epic. They just layer it with fukkery.

If you remember before Ibushi/Nakamura, they showed a clip of a bunch of guys fighting in a camp site and in a pond and a dude getting hit by a moving truck and shyt, that's the "Anywhere" match in DDT, where they took the American concept of "Falls Count Anywhere" super literally and had matches in malls, restourants, out in the woods, wherever. Kenny and Kota have been the two biggest stars in DDT since. In 2010 they even invaded NJPW and won the jr tag belts.

Kota for YEARS has been a wrestling media darling in Japan, just, hugely popular. So being attached to him helped Kenny's visibility and he eventually started doing big shyt on his own. In 2011 he invaded AJPW and won their jr title. In 2012 he won the King of DDT tournament, and went on to face Kota in the main event of DDTs biggest show ever, their 15th anniversay show at the big Sumo Hall. (that match is crazy btw, and rumor is Kota is banned for life from Sumo Hall because of it).

And yeah, he speaks fluent Japanese (also part of the reason why he's so over). He just doesn't now since he swerved and joined the Bullet Club. Even Yujiro pretends he doesn't understand Japanese now

 

[The Rainmaker]

The guys from PuroresuShop went on a puro shop tour before the Tokyo Dome show. Check the video (long but worthy). Can't get to embed the video.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/57200044?utm_campaign=JPER&utm_medium=FlashPlayer&utm_source=embed

I want all that stuff

 

[puppetmaster]

Finally getting to work backwards from WK9 (which was so dope) I'm considering copping a bulletclub shirt because they look dope as hell. .. is there a policy with them?

 

[Jmare007]

Wasn't trying to necessarily compare Okada's journey to Kobashi's. I was just trying to make the point that losing streaks aren't necessarily terrible things in and of themselves. Context and execution are important as well. I agree that it's unnecessary on its face, but this could work out quite well.

While I could think of many mistakes that Jado and Gedo have made over the past few years (especially regarding native talent), I'm wondering where you're seeing them falter in their booking. Mind elaborating on that?

One of the main thing to me are the misses with Goto and Naito, specially Naito. That dude should've been repackaged last year and give him something to bounce back from his failed big push. He is young and New Japan needs him to be a real player for future main events. Goto at this point is a lost cause it seems, another dude was supposed to be the "4th musketeer" but was constantly getting Ryback'd by booking. The Shibata thing appears to be something Gedo can't control as the OGs do not want him to get a legit push, but fukk, him jobbing once a year on a title match wouldn't hurt anybody I think. To me, they seem way too content with their very deep heavy division, they could do much more and open up more rivalries and feuds. We are getting closer and closer to a point were no matter who is champ, we've seen every possible matchup for him to have an interesting defense, that's crazy considering how stacked the heavy division is.

Aside from a brief moment of fun CHAOS vs Suzuki Gun matches, they don't seem to get how to book stable wars. With all the dudes they have they should be able to sell out Korakuen or Osaka with a big Captain Falls match between two stables. It's a nice way of getting main event guys that seem stale have something important to do and gives you more flexibility in your middle-to-big events.

And the Jr. Division. Man, I haven't been interested in it since Golden Lovers first appeared in NJPW. The Desperado/Liger feud is the most compelling thing they've done in I don't know how long.

Then you have stuff like the whole Bullet Club being "meh" and shyt like leaving Ishii out of the Dome last year, the whole Gracies involvement or booking a Dome for the G-1 Finals.

Again, Gedo is the best out of the bookers in big promotions - by far actually - but sometimes I think we let things slide that we wouldn't for other people. I guess he's earned the benefit of the doubt but a little criticism by guys like Meltzer or the VOW people wouldn't hurt.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

Finally getting to work backwards from WK9 (which was so dope) I'm considering copping a bulletclub shirt because they look dope as hell. .. is there a policy with them?

bruh don't bring that shyt to this thread.

 

[puppetmaster]

bruh don't bring that shyt to this thread.

a question from someone who

A: Who doesn't troll and is one of the nicer cats here in TSC and B: is new-ish to modern Japanese wrestling and has the balls to admit such rather than acting all knowing so in getting familiar with the product is asking a question as to whether they pull some any of the racially insensitive shyt that makes WWE hard to support at times counts as

"bringing that shyt in this thread" ?

Chill.

 

[TrueEpic08]

One of the main thing to me are the misses with Goto and Naito, specially Naito. That dude should've been repackaged last year and give him something to bounce back from his failed big push. He is young and New Japan needs him to be a real player for future main events. Goto at this point is a lost cause it seems, another dude was supposed to be the "4th musketeer" but was constantly getting Ryback'd by booking. The Shibata thing appears to be something Gedo can't control as the OGs do not want him to get a legit push, but fukk, him jobbing once a year on a title match wouldn't hurt anybody I think. To me, they seem way too content with their very deep heavy division, they could do much more and open up more rivalries and feuds. We are getting closer and closer to a point were no matter who is champ, we've seen every possible matchup for him to have an interesting defense, that's crazy considering how stacked the heavy division is.

Aside from a brief moment of fun CHAOS vs Suzuki Gun matches, they don't seem to get how to book stable wars. With all the dudes they have they should be able to sell out Korakuen or Osaka with a big Captain Falls match between two stables. It's a nice way of getting main event guys that seem stale have something important to do and gives you more flexibility in your middle-to-big events.

And the Jr. Division. Man, I haven't been interested in it since Golden Lovers first appeared in NJPW. The Desperado/Liger feud is the most compelling thing they've done in I don't know how long.

Then you have stuff like the whole Bullet Club being "meh" and shyt like leaving Ishii out of the Dome last year, the whole Gracies involvement or booking a Dome for the G-1 Finals.

Again, Gedo is the best out of the bookers in big promotions - by far actually - but sometimes I think we let things slide that we wouldn't for other people. I guess he's earned the benefit of the doubt but a little criticism by guys like Meltzer or the VOW people wouldn't hurt.

I'd rep this, but I'm on 30s. You read my mind.

Goto's a lost cause for sure, and it seems that Naito is just a very highly positioned jobber at the moment (as I said in the other thread, Ibushi is everything that New Japan wanted Naito to be at the moment, so they probably won't make the effort to push him as a top guy). By the time Naito becomes something (and it might not happen from the looks of things) he'll probably be 35+ and on the downside of his career.

Roll the Bullet Club and stable wars points into one: group related conflicts constantly fizzle out or get repetitive in New Japan. I'll even add in another thing you didn't mention: along with the Jr. Heavy division, both tag divisions are relatively stale at the moment. There are no real native juniors of note on the horizon to take hold of the divison, the Jr. Tag division is a mess of rematches and four-ways, and the Heavyweight Tag division hasn't been interesting in ages. And the Bullet Club just seems like it's sticking around for the sake of sticking around at this point.

What really worries me (and @Don Hollywood Herrera made this point very well) is the fact that there's no young native talent in either division on the horizon really. Maybe a couple of juniors (if I remember correctly, Hiromu Takahashi looked really good, but he'll only ever be a junior), but that's it. They're not going to get 5 Kota Ibushis (who has a 100% chance of never carrying anything for them despite his talent) just dropped in their lap to help them out. And there's NO potential top level heavyweight guy on the horizon. It seems that when the Nakamura/Tanahashi/Makabe/Goto/etc. generation falls back (and given what we hear about the state of Tanahashi and Nakamura's bodies, this could be closer than we think), they're going to go into another mid-2000s-esque fallow period, and then who knows if they'll have another Tanahashi to pull them out.

NOAH didn't (or rather, it ruined both of the potential ones they had), and look what's happened to that company.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

What really worries me (and @Don Hollywood Herrera made this point very well) is the fact that there's no young native talent in either division on the horizon really. Maybe a couple of juniors (if I remember correctly, Hiromu Takahashi looked really good, but he'll only ever be a junior), but that's it. They're not going to get 5 Kota Ibushis (who has a 100% chance of never carrying anything for them despite his talent) just dropped in their lap to help them out. And there's NO potential top level heavyweight guy on the horizon. It seems that when the Nakamura/Tanahashi/Makabe/Goto/etc. generation falls back (and given what we hear about the state of Tanahashi and Nakamura's bodies, this could be closer than we think), they're going to go into another mid-2000s-esque fallow period, and then who knows if they'll have another Tanahashi to pull them out.

NOAH didn't (or rather, it ruined both of the potential ones they had), and look what's happened to that company.

I don't think I ever said it, but my point in why stalling out Okada passing up Tana is a good decision, is because once that happens, there's pretty much nothing left in terms of HUGE deals, and they're going to have to ride Okada just like they rode Tana from 2010-2012. Take time with Okada while you can, because once you do that deal they're going to have to reach big time for something else.

Where I would disagree is with Kota. I think he is being groomed for a potential big time run in a big way. The graduating him up to the HW division, co-main event with Naka (and Naka putting him over on the mic afterwards). Kota is beloved by the media over there and I absolutely think making him a legit HW contender is on their to-do list for the year. If it weren't for the concussion, he probably would have scored some huge upsets in the G1 last summer, and I think he has a BIG showing in it this year.

As for Naito, and here's the thing with talking about puro. Without living over there, living the product, speaking the language, all we can go by is in-ring and how guys come off on shows. For one? Not the biggest Makabe fan at all, but he's apparently super charismatic and appears on Japanese TV a lot and fans love him. With Naito, Tana went out of his way in his book to talk about his promos and cites that as the reason for him not getting over the hump. The he does these weird, depressing, downer speeches sometimes that leave fans flat when they should be getting behind him and that he doesn't have a big star feel because of it. So can we really criticize NJ for not putting him over their bread winners?

Shibata is a long deal. Tana (publicly at least) buried the hatchet with him, but the OGs definitely didn't want him around, hence him jobbing in most of his big matches. And on top of that, he wasn't even working full tours and didn't until late last year. He had beef with Tana when he came backstage after the classic Ishii match saying he was finally enjoying wrestling again and Tana called him on just being in it for the check. Getting the tag titles, for him, is huge though and I think it was a great sign at how clearly, genuinely happy he and Goto were to do it. Shibata is going to have to prove his commitment before they give him anything. Having big singles matches with Tana and Naka to close out the year seems a good sign that he's doing that.

 

[Jmare007]

I think we have to wait what comes out of Watanabe's and Takahashi's excursions before we completely judge their young lions.

And I think they have a 3 year window to get new young guys to the uppermidcard/main event level. They only need 1 or 2 guys to keep things afloat imo. Thing is, we might get bored as fukk waiting for them if they don't start spicing things up.

 

[Scottie Drippin]

a question from someone who

A: Who doesn't troll and is one of the nicer cats here in TSC and B: is new-ish to modern Japanese wrestling and has the balls to admit such rather than acting all knowing so in getting familiar with the product is asking a question as to whether they pull some any of the racially insensitive shyt that makes WWE hard to support at times counts as

"bringing that shyt in this thread" ?

Chill.

Bruh, it was simple. That "no nikkas policy" bullshyt ruins more and more of the coli everyday and ain't no one in this thread tryna see it. I don't know your username so I don't know your history at all. All I saw was a dude new to the product and the first question he's asking is on some typical coli racism bullshyt.

You just watched a show with a black dude, a couple of pacific islanders, australians, white americans, a canadian, and a gang of asians. Did you see any racial insensitivity?

 

[ADK]

As someone who has never watched NJPW outside of the gifs over the years, I enjoyed the show