Essential Japanese Wrestling Discussion/News

TrueEpic08

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:patrice: What did he say?

Not a great translation (it's not out in English), but you should be able to get the gist of the comments. If you want to find the book (or other translated passages), it's called Why Hiroshi Tanahashi Was Able to Change NJPW.

Shibata and I passed the tryout on the same day, but I entered NJPW a year after when I graduated from college, so that made him senior to me by a year. Age-wise, he is three years younger than me. Back then, I used to call him “Shibata-san” and he used to call me “Tanahashi-kun” (‘san’ is superior to ‘kun’ in terms of prefix).

The relations of Three New Musketeers were somewhat complicated. Nakamura and Shibata were the same age, but Nakamura is 4 years junior to Shibata in the industry. But when they’ve faced each other in amateur wrestling in high school, Nakamura won. Although the two had not much in common and didn’t admire each other, wrestlers in that kind of relationship tend to create a surprisingly high quality match. “Shibata vs Nakamura” is a wild-card matchup for the current NJPW in my opinion. The two are both adept at creating a dangerous and tense atmosphere, so it will be undoubtedly a must-see match.

My feelings for Shibata are complicated. He is clumsy, too pure, and once he gets an idea about “What pro-wrestling should be” into his head, he can only move forward in that direction. When he stated, “I’m starting to enjoy pro-wrestling” in 2013 G1 CLIMAX, I snapped at him and said “Cut the crap!” On one hand, this was a rage against him for leaving the company at desperate times. “Of course you’ll enjoy wrestling in front of a full packed hectic crowd!” But to be honest, I wanted him to realize that long before this.

He should have realized sooner. Only if he would have stayed in NJPW and worked together with us to make things better...

I’m fully aware of the reason why he couldn’t come to enjoy wrestling at that time, and that he left the company after much agonizing. So on the other hand, I feel happy for what he’s said. But I found his last word in NJPW (2005) “I’m not going to be a white-collar (yes-man) wrestler” offensive.

Shibata has always turned down what the company brought to him saying, "I'm not interested” but when you ask him what he wants to do, he never came up with an actual plan. There’s no way the fans would support him, and Shibata himself would eventually reach a dead-end. That’s why I refuted, “Shibata is like a junior high student who has just entered his rebellious age. Pro-wrestling is a brawl? Killing? Then why are you wrestling in the first place!” These words didn’t just come out of my mouth out of anger, this is what I’ve been advocating for years. And I still feel the same.

And last year when he fought in the G1, he got good reaction from the crowd with his Bachi Bachi (MMA/Brawler/Battle Arts style) match. I felt the locker room feel uneasy about it. But it didn’t perturb me at all. I could imagine to a certain extent that the crowd will react to slaps and kicks. I take pride in saying that Shibata’s style was accepted because “Tanahashi / Okada” styles were established as a basis. There is a foundation for “A bit old-school NJPW” style matches to be accepted in the current NJPW. This is not a bluff. I believe so from the bottom of my heart.

There is no “Next” to those Bachi Bachi style matches. As I pointed earlier when I talked about dangerous moves, fans will seek for more intensity. And the wrestlers have to escalate their violence. And a gruesome scene that you would want to look away will take place on the ring again.

I believe that the true nature of pro-wrestling lies in arousing fans’ interest, making them wonder, “Where will this fight lead to next?” Is there “Next” to Shibata’s pro-wrestling?
 

Beautiful Bobby Eatin

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Not a great translation (it's not out in English), but you should be able to get the gist of the comments. If you want to find the book (or other translated passages), it's called Why Hiroshi Tanahashi Was Able to Change NJPW.
Truth be told, Tanahashi is 100% right. Shibata goes as hard as possible the next possible evolution of his style is what? A sword fight?
 

TrueEpic08

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Didn't know Shibata ''killed'' another wrestler in the ring... :huhldup:

That's just a bad translation of the comments. I think Tanahashi's use of the word "killing" there should be read more in the sense of "pro wrestling is a death match" more than anything.

It should also be read in the context of Tanahashi's comments on the escalation and radicalization of Strong Style in NJPW, which he credits with driving away key sectors of the audience in the mid-2000s (there are other translated passages on both Strong Style and spot-based wrestling, if you want to find them). That's what he basically means when he says "a gruesome scene that you would want to look away will take place on the ring again."

So no, Shibata didn't kill anyone...though he did have a hand in nearly killing a company. :yeshrug:
 

TrueEpic08

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Truth be told, Tanahashi is 100% right. Shibata goes as hard as possible the next possible evolution of his style is what? A sword fight?

Oh, no, I definitely see his point, but I'm also the type of guy that prefers Shoot Style wrestling.

The problem with Strong Style and Shoot Style as it got interpreted is that it just came to be short for "smack the shyt out of my opponent," which can only work for so long (oh, and nonsense like the Ogawa/Hashimoto series...). You can do that every so often, as with, for example, Lesnar/Cena from a couple of years ago (witch worked because it was NOTHING like any WWE match ever) or Shibata's current matches (which work because he's the only guy that does them). But there were other ways to do it like working the mat, creating compelling match progressions based on what was going on rather than just smacking each other silly (Which Tanahashi's match with Suzuki, or some of the best of the UWFi stuff could be seen doing).

The problem, which Tanahashi highlights pretty well, was the lack of restraint that they had. They never left anything in their back pocket or gave themselves any directions to move in except "hit harder." Now, I like some stiffness, but that state of affairs is good for neither the wrestlers nor the fans. Both get burned out eventually.
 

Jmare007

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It's late so I wont read that Tanahashi piece right now, but it seems like an interesting conversation.

hey people in this thread



What do you think the best way to answer this question is?

Storylines are very easy to follow because they are hardly storylines ***. Matches are booked for a show because:

a) it's a title shot
b) there's a rivalry (probably initiated in a title match or tournament match)
c) it's a filler match
d) tag match that involves people having beef with each other (very easy to get who hates who by watching the action and animosity in a match)

In that sense, if you wanna follow puro, you just need to watch most of their tv shows. Depending on the promotion, that could be 1 or 4 shows a month (unless there's a tournament). You are gonna get very quickly who are the main eventers and which are the feuds to follow.

Every tour a promotion has ends with a big show. Even if you only watch those big shows, you are still gonna understand what's is going on. The only thing you'll be missing out is potentially good/great matches and developments from certain wrestlers.

Weekly shows are not the norm. And for companies that have that weekly TV time slot, they just put 1 hour summaries of what has happened on the current tour.

To follow puro, my best recommendation is watch all the shows that end a tour and as much as the opening show of a tour that you can find - 90% of the time, both shows are taped - the rest you can do with following results in sites like purolove or reading the WON and sites like purocentral, strong style spirit, etc.


*** there are promotion like Dragon Gate that tend to have more developed angles, promps and a lot of stables wars but even so, it's not that hard to follow if you put a little time to it.
 

trick

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That's just a bad translation of the comments. I think Tanahashi's use of the word "killing" there should be read more in the sense of "pro wrestling is a death match" more than anything.

It should also be read in the context of Tanahashi's comments on the escalation and radicalization of Strong Style in NJPW, which he credits with driving away key sectors of the audience in the mid-2000s (there are other translated passages on both Strong Style and spot-based wrestling, if you want to find them). That's what he basically means when he says "a gruesome scene that you would want to look away will take place on the ring again."

So no, Shibata didn't kill anyone...though he did have a hand in nearly killing a company. :yeshrug:

from Wikipedia:

Shibata made his professional wrestling debut on October 10, 1999 facing close friend Wataru Inoue at a New Japan Pro Wrestling event. In 2000, Shibata took part in the2000 Young Lion Cup, eventually finishing 3rd place with 6 points.[3] During the tournament he was involved in a serious incident when he hit Masakazu Fukuda with an elbow drop during a match. Fukuda was in a coma and died 4 days later in hospital.[4]

:merchant:
 

Beautiful Bobby Eatin

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Oh, no, I definitely see his point, but I'm also the type of guy that prefers Shoot Style wrestling.

The problem with Strong Style and Shoot Style as it got interpreted is that it just came to be short for "smack the shyt out of my opponent," which can only work for so long (oh, and nonsense like the Ogawa/Hashimoto series...). You can do that every so often, as with, for example, Lesnar/Cena from a couple of years ago (witch worked because it was NOTHING like any WWE match ever) or Shibata's current matches (which work because he's the only guy that does them). But there were other ways to do it like working the mat, creating compelling match progressions based on what was going on rather than just smacking each other silly (Which Tanahashi's match with Suzuki, or some of the best of the UWFi stuff could be seen doing).

The problem, which Tanahashi highlights pretty well, was the lack of restraint that they had. They never left anything in their back pocket or gave themselves any directions to move in except "hit harder." Now, I like some stiffness, but that state of affairs is good for neither the wrestlers nor the fans. Both get burned out eventually.
Absolutely. Though I believe japanese fans are more rational than Americans and wont really expect EVERY wrestler to adapt their style like we would.

I dont understand why Shibata wouldnt have stayed in MMA with his style. He has a gladiators mentality (which is what makes him one of my favorites) so that seems the perfect fit. His mystique makes him a valuable asset to the company but I also feel like puroresu will bore him again eventually.
 

trick

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Absolutely. Though I believe japanese fans are more rational than Americans and wont really expect EVERY wrestler to adapt their style like we would.

I dont understand why Shibata wouldnt have stayed in MMA with his style. He has a gladiators mentality (which is what makes him one of my favorites) so that seems the perfect fit. His mystique makes him a valuable asset to the company but I also feel like puroresu will bore him again eventually.

http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Katsuyori-Shibata-10434

His record is 4-11 in MMA and he lost his last 5 fights.
 

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That's just a bad translation of the comments. I think Tanahashi's use of the word "killing" there should be read more in the sense of "pro wrestling is a death match" more than anything.

It should also be read in the context of Tanahashi's comments on the escalation and radicalization of Strong Style in NJPW, which he credits with driving away key sectors of the audience in the mid-2000s (there are other translated passages on both Strong Style and spot-based wrestling, if you want to find them). That's what he basically means when he says "a gruesome scene that you would want to look away will take place on the ring again."

So no, Shibata didn't kill anyone...though he did have a hand in nearly killing a company. :yeshrug:

Props for that.
 

TrueEpic08

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Absolutely. Though I believe japanese fans are more rational than Americans and wont really expect EVERY wrestler to adapt their style like we would.

I dont understand why Shibata wouldnt have stayed in MMA with his style. He has a gladiators mentality (which is what makes him one of my favorites) so that seems the perfect fit. His mystique makes him a valuable asset to the company but I also feel like puroresu will bore him again eventually.

Because he's an awful mixed martial artist...he probably wouldn't even make a good sparring partner.

Your last sentence is probably why NJPW won't push him, even to their detriment (him losing in the New Japan Cup was mind-boggling...) and, unlike WWE, they can actually afford not to do so due to the abundance of talent they currently have.
 

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hey people in this thread



What do you think the best way to answer this question is?
It's very, very easy to follow. Firstly, dudes only work about 10-15 singles matches a year. Those will all be at the PPVs and the tournaments. G1 Climax, which is happening right now, and the New Japan Cup which happens in the Spring. Otherwise, they're in tag and six man matches with their factions in matches building up to their big singles showdowns. Most MAJOR storyline shifts happen after matches on PPV so you can see them happen. With so few singles matches, every match can be a reasonably big deal, and it's easy to keep track of and remember the happenings.

And then to follow what's happening on the house shows and storyline developments, there are a lot of good blogs to post all the results, and even better, have summaries of the storyline stuff/translations for what's happening. Of course, these are spoiler heavy. http://www.puroresufan.com/njpw/ is the go-to for New Japan.

The thing about good puro booking. Is that things flow and develop for years. It's a complete 180 from WWE where you're SUPPOSED to remember what happened six months, a year, two year, three years etc etc etc ago. Every time guys come across each other, it's another chapter in their story. If you just hop into stuff now, you'll find it super enjoyable of course, but occasionally you'll wonder why the crowd is going apeshyt at something that didn't seem THAT epic, and that's because it's some sort of callback to a spot or a moment that happened before. I'd really suggest watching the Okada-Tanahashi matches in order to really appreciate them. It starts with Tanahashi being overwhelmed by this young guy who can exceed him with the athletic style he brought to the puro game and not being able to respond to someone who, for the first time, he just couldn't out-work for a W. And then they develop the story perfectly until their final match 18 months later.

There was a really fun match between Karl Anderson challenging Tanahashi for the belt early last year, when Anderson pulls out some of the signature moves and spots of some past NJPW gaijin like he was channeling their energy to pull off the upset the crowd ate the shyt UP. He had a Japanese audience legit yearning for a foreigner to beat the biggest star in the country.
 
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