Ben.
Heisenbrook
Kobe's prime is very weak compared to the all-time greats, not even a top 15 peak/prime. If we're being real and LeBron is a far better prime player than prime Kobe.
Jalen Rose's Top 10 NBA players of ALL TIME yall notice who missing
- Thread starter A Real Negga
- Start date
How the fukk is Duncan not at least top 3 when he's fhe GOAT at his position?
OC's finest
All Star
Just to play devils advocate, it's because some positions are more valuable than others
Just to play devils advocate, it's because some positions are more valuable than others
He brought 5 chips to a franchise which had none
Saysumthinfunnymike
VOTE!!!
Another thread where folk didn't watch Magic and Bird play. 
The Coli is getting pretty terrible lately
The Coli is getting pretty terrible lately
Jordan: 6 championships; 6 Finals MVP; 5 MVPs; do I really need to go on?
Russell: 11 championships; 5 MVPS; 4x rebounding champion; focal point of the 1960s Boston Celtics (greatest dynasty in NBA history); Finals MVP trophy named after him; unbelievable career averages.
Kareem: 6 championships; 6 MVPs; 2 Finals MVPs; all-time leading scorer
With all due respect to Duncan, which of these players is he knocking out of the top 3? Nobody.
So you ignoring Kareem played with Magic?
That ain't got nothing to do with Hakeem, 1vs1 in the Finals Dream spanked Shakk easy.. swept his ass
Plus Shakk had Kobe for them 3 rings. Who'd Dream have ? Ol ass Clyde Drexler for the 2nd one
In 1995, Shaq was only in his 3rd season. Olajuwon was a seasoned vet. Moreover, Shaq's team simply wasn't as good as the Rockets. That's not down solely to Shaq.
Anybody who watched both players in their respective primes knows that Shaq IN HIS PRIME destroys Hakeem 1 v 1.
Stop that. Kareem and Magic benefited each other but Kareem is an NBA legend in his own right. He had the majority of his rings and MVP trophies (and a Finals MVP) BEFORE Magic.
If I used your logic, I can say: Duncan didn't have Parker and Ginobili?
Are you saying Parker and Manu are Magic status?
DoubleClutch
Superstar
Iverson is missing
Wrong.
A much smaller league meant more competition for fewer spots. The fact that only the 121 best basketball players in the world could play in the NBA condensed the talent pool to nine teams. In the modern NBA, over half of the teams don't even have one all star player, nevermind HOFers. Examining the teams in the mid 1960s, all nine of them had Hall of Fame talents:
Boston Celtics: Bill Russel, John Havlicek, Sam Jones, Tommy Heinsolm
Cincinnati Royals: Oscar Robertson, Jerry Lucas
Philadelphia 76ers: Hal Greer
New York Knicks: Willis Reed
San Francisco Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Nate Thurmond
St. Louis Hawks: Bob Pettit
Los Angeles Lakers: Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
Detroit Pistons: David Bing, Dave Debusschere
Baltimore Bullets: Walt Bellamy
Russell and Chamberlain faced various legends on a nightly basis, yet still were known as the best players of their generation. Throughout the decade, the two were subject to strong competition Some of the great players Russell and Chamberlain faced included:
1960-1964:
Dolph Schayes
Bob Pettit
Walt Bellamy
Jerry Lucas
1965-1968:
Willis Reed
Elvin Hayes
Wes Unseld
Nate Thurmond
1969-1972:
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bob Lanier
Artis Gilmore
Billy Cunningham
Dave Cowens
One reason some fans tend to lash out at the 50s/60s era is the absurd stats of not only HOFers but stats of average players as well, as it was not uncommon for a player to average 15-20 rebounds per game. There are several reasons for the high rebound rates of these players:
1. A high tempo offense. The average team in 1965 shot about 600 more shots than a team in 1985 and about 1400 more shots than a team in 2005.
2. Less fouls called. In 1965, the average team had 2076 personal fouls per season. In 2005, 1856 personal fouls were called. But keep in mind that 1400 more shots were attempted, yet only 200 less fouls called. The result, a lowing field goal percentage, and more shots allowed to be rebounded.
When adjusting the field goal percentage to 45% and reducing the shots taken to the normal rate today, the rebounding rate drops to a more familiar rate for most players. Elgin Baylor would dropped to around 9 boards a game and Nate Thurmond to around 12. However, both Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain, even with the adjusted stats, still averaged between 16-20 rebounds per game, showing that they truly did dominate like few others.
Another common misconception is that the 50s/60s consisted only of 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt)
Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"
Two other factors to keep in mind:
1. The NBA was less interested in promoting itself 40 years ago, and therefore, did not see the need to measure players with their shoes on. Almost all players today are listed 1-2 inches taller than their actual height.
2. The NBA had 1/3 of the players that they do now. That means Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain faced these 25 guys 3 times more often than they would in the modern NBA scheduling.
The truth is, height will never be more of a factor than skill. With several exceptions, players over 7' are typically not very successful. At a collegian level, only three 7 footers have made all-American first team in the last twenty years: Shaquille O'Neal, Andrew Bogut, and Chris Mihm. In relatively recent all star games, Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, LaMarcus Aldridge, Roy Hibbert and Chris Kaman were the only few of a select group of players selected to be 7 feet, and all are known far more for their skill sets than dominating with size. If height was such a significant factor, then Manute Bol, Shawn Bradly, and Gheorghe Muresan would be hall of fame players, not just fan favorite scrubs.
The overall talent of the 1960s is greatly underestimated as well. The stamina that players in the 1960s have is far greater than anything seen today
1965 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Oscar Robertson, 45.6 mpg
2. Bill Russel, 45.2 mpg
3. Wilt Chamberlain, 44.4 mpg
2013 Top 3 in minutes played per game
1. Carmelo Anthony/Jimmy Butler, 38.7 mpg
2. Kevin Durant, 38.5 mpg
3. DeMar DeRozan, 38.2 mpg
In addition, teams never walked up the court and held the ball for 12 seconds, and then have four players watch as the fifth tries to get to the hoop. Most teams in the 60s tried to get a fast break after every rebound and in the half court set, the ball moved and players were setting screens and cutting to the basket. Yet players were doing this on a nightly basis, without fancy trainers giving massages and various methods to help muscle recovery. In addition, players were far more versatile as Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Dave Debusschere, and other players could play 3 or 4 positions. Many performances that players had would be considered triple doubles in today's game, but assist rules were far stricter in the 1960s, as the average team in the 1960s made 1000 more field goals per year than a team in 2013, yet averaged 100 less assists.
The 1960s produced some of the leagues finest stars, and it is an absolute travesty that these legends are debunked for playing in a weak era when it is clearly not the case.
But I'm glad we can agree that Russell is top 3.
Parker: Finals MVP and arguable the best PG in the league. Definitely the most accomplished PG in the league. Future HOF.
Manu: Arguably the best international player to ever play in the NBA.
Not saying they were as good as Magic individually but I'm saying that Duncan had PLENTY of help from those 2. Duncan isn't winning 5 rings without both of them.
Kareem, on the other hand, already won 4 or 5 rings BEFORE Magic joined the Lakers. He also had a Finals MVP and some MVP trophies.
malbaker86
Gators
That aihistory nothing to do with Hakeem, 1vs1 in the Finals Dream spanked Shakk easy.. swept his ass
Plus Shakk had Kobe for them 3 rings. Who'd Dream have ? Ol ass Clyde Drexler for the 2nd one
Shaq was giving Hakeem that work in the finals. Stop revising histoey
GOAT
The bubble was fraudulent
Yet Jordan is better statistically in just about every category. Makes perfect sense.
Jordan averaged more points on high FG% and got more assists but Kobe's better offensively. Lebron even has better offensive numbers across the board than Kobe.