I've changed my mind on universal healthcare in the US. I'm against it.

dora_da_destroyer

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You were arguing what I said. This entire post is literally that. You said a Sanders plan wouldn’t hold up because of a Republican government and I responded to that. And whether or not some people want to abolish it entirely is irrelevant. There is not currently a proposal out there with any traction that has advocated that so it’s a red herring. Women’s reproductive health is in peril right now - that point doesn’t make much sense.
You responded saying a program couldn’t be fully repealed, my concern is about certain things being repealed or stripped

That point does make sense, it’s being attacked in conservative states, and while that isn’t ideal, there are plenty of moderate and liberal states where it isn’t being attacked. A federal healthcare plan has the ability to make life harder for women in all 50 states.
 

Red Shield

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But am I wrong? Is our government not dysfunctional? Can you tell me it isn't? Forget labels and political parties. Let's talk about the facts on the ground as they really are, right now.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion we are on the dying side of the American empire and the Jan 6th incident showed this more than anything in recent memory. If this was before the 90s I would have more faith but can you sit here and sincerely say our government is not fukked up, possibly beyond repair at this point? I would be more worried about a fascist take over or descent into anarchy in the future. Those seem like much more pressing issues in the near future and a government on this sort of decline, as time goes on, will only do a worse and worse job in implementing a complicated and intricate Healthcare system.

Again, tell me, as far as my analysis of our government, that I'm wrong. Can you sincerely do that and not feel dishonest? I wish we could have a system like Canada or many European countries. But I'm not saying those countries are perfect but they have less corruptible governments and governments that care about the common good than ours.

Yep....

the last 4 years ripped the veil off for good.. more and more words like decline/collapse are coming into vogue when speaking about the usa.


but outside of that.. universal healthcare was unlikely in the usa anyway. this country would have had to change it's foundation
 

TheDarceKnight

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It’s a big reason I find libertarians to be the most disgusting people on the face of the planet.
I agree that it's a selfish ideology, and it's basically people okay with cruelty because fortunately for them, they wouldn't be the ones to suffer under the system they'd favor.

It's not a coincidence that most Libertarians are middle class to upper class white men.

Their movement basically imploded after that disaster of a convention in 2016.

I give a grace period to people that identify as libertarians until their mid 20's. If they haven't grown out of the phase by then, I assume they're selfish at best, or sociopathic at worst.
 

TheDarceKnight

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Not because I don't believe in the concept. But because our current government is way too dysfunctional that you can't trust them to give you something good and effective. No matter what party we have in there because it's too corrupt. With ACA even though it wasn't all bad, it ended up being a husk of its initial dream after our politicians defiled it like some chick in an alley before letting her get away. Sorry for the graphic analogy but I feel it's apt to describe what our politicians do due to either being money hungry, bribed, and/or just having crazy views (especially on the right).

Even when democrats hold all the power there are still corrupted individuals in the party itself who will make sure it's absolute shyt once they are done with it. Lieberman was the person back then and Sinema and Manchin are that person now.

So, until our political system is massively reworked to be less corrupt and less dysfunctional I have no hope we will get anything close to European or Canadian Healthcare. People might bring up other social selafety nets like Medicare/medicaid and social security but these aren't recent inventions and our current politicians are working hard at making those dysfunctional/ruining them too..

Why give up more of your money to these people who will just piss it away and don't give you anything close to what you want.

You can't even get the house leader in the democratic party to agree that maybe allowing them to essentially do insider trading may be bad and need some checks. Why trust them to know how to handle a government Healthcare system?
Our current government is dysfunctional but so is the private sector. It's not like Blue Cross Blue Shield, Humana, and all these other companies are doing a good job.

Medicare is one of the most popular social programs we have. Its approval rating is stupidly high. People with Medicare love it, by and large.

It's crazy to me to see so many people arguing against their own self interest. If our government is dysfunctional, then we work to make it better. That's not a good reason to not implement a policy that would substantially improve the lives of the people in our society.
 

DEAD7

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I agree that it's a selfish ideology, and it's basically people okay with cruelty because fortunately for them, they wouldn't be the ones to suffer under the system they'd favor.

It's not a coincidence that most Libertarians are middle class to upper class white men.

Their movement basically imploded after that disaster of a convention in 2016.

I give a grace period to people that identify as libertarians until their mid 20's. If they haven't grown out of the phase by then, I assume they're selfish at best, or sociopathic at worst.
:picard:
 
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