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ba'al said:
Them being descended from Adam and Eve, however, does.
I've Been Studying The Bible, Qu'ran, Hadith And The Teachings Of Elijah Muhammad For 20 Years...AMA
- Thread starter ImmaGetJoeClarkArrested
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I must admit you posed some great questions....and I did a little reading of the scriptures myself....and here is how I understand it
John 1 says that in the beginning there was the word and God had the word
The word was then given to Jesus and from what Jesus says about the word in John...I believe he describes the passing of the word to what he calls "the comforter"....
He basically says that the word which has been with God from the beginning will be kept by his disciples and the word will not be seen until the comforter arrives
I believe that the Holy spirit is the word which will only make manifest in completion with the teachings of all things through the comforter....
I hope this is not too all over the place and u can follow what I'm saying
wastedmermaid
Superstar
What do you think about Jehovah witnesses 
I think they should stop waking me up on SaturdayWhat do you think about Jehovah witnesses
Nah I don't know too much about them
Atheists
Jews
Christians
And Muslims
What up...I feel like arguing
So, what have you learned? I seek enlightenment
Let me see if I can provide some guidance to help you see what has been the traditional understanding of that scripture because the way that you have interpreted can be refined a bit.
You see a very apt description of "The Word of God" in Revelations 19:11. Here is what it states.....
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
This scripture in Revelations describes the "Word of God" as a person (referencing his eyes, mouth, head, and thigh), with many attributes, including having the title "King of Kings and Lord of Lords". So, it's clear in this scripture that the one that holds the title "Word of God" is a person that has human attributes.
We can then revisit the scripture in John 1 that you are attempting to interpret.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
So lets revisit your response.
No. The scripture says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
This scripture makes three bold statements.
1) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was in the beginning. This means that nothing existed before this person.
2) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was with God. This means the Word existed in the company of God.
3) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was God. This means the Word is equated or equal to God.
2) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was with God. This means the Word existed in the company of God.
3) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was God. This means the Word is equated or equal to God.
It's a very poetic line but the formula is this -
"The Word precedes, the Word existed alongside of, The Word is"
This is the formula that explicitly gives divinity to Jesus Christ, who is known as the Word of God, and also the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Not exactly. If you read further down John1:1, the scripture states..
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This scripture explicitly states that the Word of God became flesh (has human attributes such as eyes, a mouth, a head, and a thigh (see the scripture in Revelation above)) and lived among mortals. The scripture then goes on to state that the "Word of God" that "became flesh" is the "one and only Son, who came from the father".
So this scriptures plainly states that the Word is Jesus, the Son of God.
So to your statement, the Word was not something that was given or possessed by Jesus because Jesus himself is the Word.
There is nothing referencing the Comforter, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Ghost in this scripture so I'm not sure from where you pulled that?
This scripture is traditionally held to be one of the most important scriptures in the New Testament because it explicitly proclaims the divinity of Jesus, that he is eternal, that nothing existed before him, that he existed alongside of, and that he is God.
Thanks for trying to answer my questions though.
Though I tell you, I have learned something from this thread. I did not know that Muslims claimed Muhammad to be the Comforter ortherwise known as the Holy Spirit. I just think of this verse in Matthew.
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
It's like Muslims make the assertion that "the Father" is "Allah", and also make assertions against the divinity and purpose of Jesus and claim his death and resurrection to be false. Okay, no biggie. BUT ya'll didn't stop there.
You have went as far as possibly doing what the New Testament calls as the one unforgivable sin, by equating Muhammad to the Holy Spirit. It's just an astounding claim.
Christians don't even put all that much emphasis on the Holy Spirit (more emphasis is put on Jesus) even though the Spirit has taken the place of God's presence in the world now.
It's like Muslims not only placed emphasis on him by singling him out but just went in for the jugular by claiming he is merely a mortal prophet born of the Ishmaelites, a prophet that is revered as being greater than Jesus.
I need to study more about Islam because there is a lot to unpack there.
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So in your understanding who is Jesus referring to when he speaks of the comforter??Let me see if I can provide some guidance to help you see what has been the traditional understanding of that scripture because the way that you have interpreted can be refined a bit.
You see a very apt description of "The Word of God" in Revelations 19:11. Here is what it states.....
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
This scripture in Revelations describes the "Word of God" as a person (referencing his eyes, mouth, head, and thigh), with many attributes, including having the title "King of Kings and Lord of Lords". So, it's clear in this scripture that the one that holds the title "Word of God" is a person that has human attributes.
We can then revisit the scripture in John 1 that you are attempting to interpret.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. There was a man sent from God whose name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
So lets revisit your response.
No. The scripture says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"
This scripture makes three bold statements.
1) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was in the beginning. This means that nothing existed before this person.
2) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was with God. This means the Word existed in the company of God.
3) It says the person being referenced as "the Word" was God. This means the Word is equated or equal to God.
It's a very poetic line but the formula is this -
"The Word precedes, the Word existed alongside of, The Word is"
This is the formula that explicitly gives divinity to Jesus Christ, who is known as the Word of God, and also the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Not exactly. If you read further down John1:1, the scripture states..
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
This scripture explicitly states that the Word of God became flesh (has human attributes such as eyes, a mouth, a head, and a thigh (see the scripture in Revelation above)) and lived among mortals. The scripture then goes on to state that the "Word of God" that "became flesh" is the "one and only Son, who came from the father".
So this scriptures plainly states that the Word is Jesus, the Son of God.
So to your statement, the Word was not something that was given or possessed by Jesus because Jesus himself is the Word.
There is nothing referencing the Comforter, the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Ghost in this scripture so I'm not sure from where you pulled that?
This scripture is traditionally held to be one of the most important scriptures in the New Testament because it explicitly proclaims the divinity of Jesus, that he is eternal, that nothing existed before him, that he existed alongside of, and that he is God.
Thanks for trying to answer my questions though.
Though I tell you, I have learned something from this thread. I did not know that Muslims claimed Muhammad to be the Comforter ortherwise known as the Holy Spirit. I just think of this verse in Matthew.
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
It's like Muslims make the assertion that "the Father" is "Allah", and also make assertions against the divinity and purpose of Jesus and claim his death and resurrection to be false. Okay, no biggie. BUT ya'll didn't stop there.
It's just an astounding claim.
Christians don't even put all that much emphasis on the Holy Spirit (more emphasis is put on Jesus) even though the Spirit has taken the place of God's presence in the world now.
It's like Muslims not only placed emphasis on him by singling him out but just went in for the jugular by claiming he is merely a mortal prophet born of the Ishmaelites, a prophet that is revered as being greater than Jesus.
I need to study more about Islam because there is a lot to unpack there.
And who do the Pharisees speak of when they ask if John is "that prophet?"
My understanding comes directly from the mouth of Jesus in John 14:26.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
Christians debate a LOT of things. Majority of things are debateable in the Bible. I, myself, come from a very liberal branch of Christianity that debates the existence of Jesus as religion has come to know him in the Bible. What is not debated by Christians, because its quite explicit, is the identity of the Comforter.
In addition, I gave you an example of how the Holy Spirit operates here:
The sin of Adam caused a divide between God and humanity. In order for God to be reconciled back to humanity and back in communion with humanity, our sin has to be removed.
When a person is baptized, they are experiencing the symbolic act of death and cleansing of sin (being dipped into water) and being resurrected or made new (being lifted from the water). Our only chance at experiencing God in our fallen nature as humans is through death and the cleansing of our sin. That is the barrier to God.
Jesus took part in the symbolic act of baptism, even though he was without sin, then the Holy Spirit came and dwelled in him. The baptism of Jesus began the first steps of bridging Heaven and Earth that was originally divided by Adam. Which is why Christ is called the Second Adam.
The Holy Spirit, although coming upon and dwelling in Jesus, however, could not come upon and dwell with humanity until the death of humanity and a renewal of humanity's life occurred.
Which is why Jesus proclaimed that he must go (take upon himself the sin of humanity and die in place of humanity) so that the Holy Spirit could finally come back and dwell among humans.
That is how the Comforter works and why the Comforter would come to be with humanity after Jesus because Jesus had to wipe the sins of humanity clean FIRST. You see how that works? Cleansed sins, then God comes. That's what happened at the baptism, that's what happened at the crucifixion.
The Pharisees are referencing the prophet Moses spoke of in Deuteronomy 18:18:
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.
Notice it says he will put his words in the mouth of this prophet, now compare that with Jesus words in John 8:28–29;
When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Jesus is giving us a hint that He is “that prophet” mentioned in Deuteronomy. Later the apostle Peter quotes Deuteronomy 18:18 in both Acts 3:22 and again in Acts 7
Acts 3:22-
For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
Acts 7:37-
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Notice how the prophecy says the prophet will be like Moses, Jesus is the best description of this because as Moses led the Israelites out of slavery, Jesus leads us out of the bondage of sin. Jesus was like Moses in that the first time he presented himself to Israel, they rejected him. Thereafter, he left for a very long time (40 years for Moses) before returning to take his people to the promised land. That excludes Mohammad.
Additionally,
John said that that prophet was a contemporary (meaning alive at the very moment):
Among you stands one whom you don’t know. He is the one who comes after me, who is preferred before me, whose sandal strap I’m not worthy to loosen.
All of this is present tense. That again excludes Mohammad.
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Alright so let me try to "unpack" it for u as u said...lol
The first thing the Pharisees asked John is are u the christ, John didn't deny but confessed that he wasn't the Christ...so he was very specific in letting the Pharisees know that he wasn't the christ.
Next they asked him if he was elias, he said no...then they asked if he was that prophet...
From what you described in Deuteronomy Moses says "that" prophet is Jesus...so why would the Pharisees ask if he was Jesus if he already confessed that he wasn't??
And to my other point about Muhammad and the chronology of how it makes sense that he is the comforter....
The word was with God in the beginning....the word is something that cannot be seen...
In John 14:17 Jesus says the spirit of truth(the Holy ghost) cannot be seen
Then Jesus goes on to say...to paraphrase....i am leaving but I will not leave u alone because the spirit will be with u...and in due time the spirit will make itself seen to u...and u will know he is the spirit because he loves me and he will speak like me and keep my commandments...but he will teach of all things and help u remember what me and my father have taught u.....
That describes Muhammad to the T....the Qur'an is a refresher course for Judaism and Christianity...it makes clear what is confusing and contradictory about the old and new Testament....
Also Jesus says that his father's house has many mansions...meaning that there are different beliefs amongst us but as long as you know that my father is God there is a mansion for you...and he said I must go to prepare a place for you...
Also the meaning of Islam is to submit to God's will....
We know 2 things about the beginning...the word was with God and god created the heaven and the earth...
It was God's will that the heaven and the earth were created...which means that the heaven and the earth had to submit to God's will...submission to God's will is what makes a Muslim...
So in turn the heaven the earth and the word are the first Muslims because they submitted to God's will...
I believe I have shown how the word has manifested and made itself seen through the comforter(Muhammad) as Jesus said would happen
I hope this isn't too much...but u asked me to unpack
Who created god?
Great question....I believe that as human beings we have the ability to make our thoughts actually come to life and become tangible things...
And Allah(God) is the greatest creator and thinker and knows best...
So for us humans we create and bring things to life but the greatest and original thinker, I believe has thought himself to life
You are contradicting yourself here. First you say he didn't confess, then you say he confessed. Which one was it?
Your comprehension is a bit off bro. How could Moses say that that Prophet was Jesus when he didn't know Jesus? The scriptures that I presented to you shows that Jesus confirmed that he was the prophet to which Moses spoke of hundreds of years before.
I'm guessing your question is why did the Pharisees ask John the question of whether or not he was the Messiah and then whether or not he was the Prophet as if the Prophet and Messiah were two different people? And your question is, if I'm stating that Jesus was the Messiah, and Jesus was the Prophet, why would they ask the same question twice? Is that correct?
The prophet was actually Jesus, but the Jews were questioning John about whether he was the prophet which Moses had foretold.
Many associated the prophet Moses foretold with the Messiah and they understood that Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks indicated that the time for the Messiah to arrive was near.
Luke 3:15 indicated this by saying that the people were in expectation of the coming of the Messiah (Christ), and some thought John the Baptist might be him.
Luke 3:15
Now the people were in expectation and all of them were reasoning in their hearts about John, “May he perhaps be the Christ?”
However, there was confusion among the Jews about the prophecies concerning the Messiah. Many people believed there were two different Messiahs coming. In fact, John himself sent some of his disciples to Jesus to ask him if he was the coming one or if they should expect another.
Luke 7:19
So John summoned two of his disciples and sent them to the Lord to ask: “Are you the Coming One, or are we to expect a different one?”
Part of the reason for the misunderstanding came from the fact that the Hebrew Scriptures showed the Messiah coming in two different roles. One portrayed him as “a humble man, riding upon an ass,” the other a powerful warrior “coming with the clouds of the heavens” with fire in his eyes and a sword in his mouth (see the Word of God scripture from Revelations I posted previously).
The Jews disagreed about whether these prophecies were about two different Messiahs or if they applied to just one and the other a Prophet. They failed to understand that the prophecies related to two distinct appearances of the Messiah, first when he came as a humble man and then a second coming as a powerful, King of Kings, at Armageddon.
There was no prophet foretold to come after Jesus, except some references to both false prophets and a symbolic wild beast called the false prophet in Revelation.
You're playing peekaboo with the scriptures. The Word was indeed with God, you just forgot about the other two parts, specifically, where it said that the Word was God in the same breath.
What do you mean that the word is something that cannot be seen? What scriptures do you have to support this? Especially considering it say the Word was made flesh and dwelled among people? Meaning, people saw the Word in the flesh.
The Word =/= the Comforter
It that why it makes the claim that the Holy Trinity is the Father, Son, and Mary? I mean, the Holy Trinity is FOUNDATIONAL to Christianity. If you got something so basic wrong, what else could you have possibly gotten wrong???
Can you unpack this for me, too?
Mansions in Heaven are neither here nor there to the discussion.
Yes, this is what scripture says the Word.
It is the Word that made the Heavens and Earth as nothing was made that has been made without him. If you are not submitting to Christ (The Word) through whom all things were made, then who are you submitting to?
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U know like a child is created by a man and woman, what created god?Great question....I believe that as human beings we have the ability to make our thoughts actually come to life and become tangible things...
And Allah(God) is the greatest creator and thinker and knows best...
So for us humans we create and bring things to life but the greatest and original thinker, I believe has thought himself to life
I see you keep asking this question throughout the thread.
The Triune God is one immortal being made up of three separate persons. How is that possible? I don't know. That's the mystery of Christianity.
What we do know is that this immortal being, when inserting himself within the confines of time and space, took the form of many different things.
In the Old Testament, God presented himself as the "Angel of the Lord". Many Christians believe that the Angel of the Lord was the Pre-existent Christ. Some scriptures present the Angel of the Lord in the same position of God. Then there are some scriptures where the Angel of the Lord appears to be separate from God. Whatever the case, the Angel of the Lord appears in different ways to man.
1) He took the form of a burning bush.
And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
2) He took the form of a pillar of cloud and fire.
The angel of God, who had been going before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them.
At the morning watch, the LORD looked down on the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud and brought the army of the Egyptians into confusion.
3) He took the form of a man
And a man wrestled with him until the breaking of the day. When the man saw that he did not prevail against Jacob, he touched his hip socket, and Jacob's hip was put out of joint as he wrestled with him. Then he said, “Let me go, for the day has broken.” But Jacob said, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” And he said to him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Jacob.” Then he said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life has been delivered.
4) He took the form of a human hand
Suddenly the fingers of a human hand appeared and wrote on the plaster of the wall, near the lampstand in the royal palace. The king watched the hand as it wrote.
God being an immortal being took the form of many different things when appearing to man. So the question is not whether or not the Holy Ghost is a Man or Spirit. He appears how he appears. For instance, when the Spirit of the Lord took the bodily form of a dove at the baptism of Jesus. He appeared as a dove.
And finally, the pre-existent Word was made Flesh, so God was born in time and space in the person of Jesus.
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