It's time we stop recognizing Chris Paul as a great defensive player

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Steph Curry is a Better defender than Chris Paul
Now? :heh:
Last season he certainly had more defensive impact -
These are his individual defensive stats from last season:

xpj3PqO.png

He defended more ISO plays than any other guard (4th overall in the league) while holding them to 0.7 PPP and 34% shooting.
Uo8QRcV.png

Look at Curry's numbers and then look at Paul's in this graphic, when guarding ball handlers.

Spot up defense - 206 attempts, holding matchups to 33% shooting - 68% percentile

Off screen defense - 53 attempts, holding matchups to 34% shooting - 74% percentile

He also was a top-10 guard (not just PGs) in Keep-in-front% and contesting shot rate.


Curry was one of, if not the best PG (also one of the best out of all positions) when defending ISO, PnR ball-handler, spot up and off screen plays last season - not just one of these areas but ALL OF THEM. Now obviously there needs to be some context applied to all these (game situation, matchups, scheme and help defender deterrence), but you don't rate as highly as Curry did in ALL these defensive situations by being a trash defender.

Take your L and NEVER speak of this again.

:birdman:
See graphics and bold.

He was better than CP in just about all those situations (not to mention he had a bigger defensive workload), as well as leading the league in steals. @LV Koopa can check this out too since he seems to think it's blasphemy to suggest Curry was better last season on the defensive end.

:manny:
 

LV Koopa

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Last season he certainly had more defensive impact -

See graphics and bold.

He was better than CP in just about all those situations (not to mention he had a bigger defensive workload), as well as leading the league in steals. @LV Koopa can check this out too since he seems to think it's blasphemy to suggest Curry was better last season on the defensive end.

:manny:

Why are you using metrics :mjpls:
 
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I'm convinced he's a massive troll. Anyone claiming CP3 isn't playing elite defense this season doesn't understand the game.
Did you by any chance happen to read the OP at all or this post -
He can barely stay in front of his matchup anymore. He's certainly shown more urgency and consistency this season - I'll give him that, but that's only because his lack of effort has been horrendous over the last few seasons. He regularly took possessions off, and if it weren't for DeAndre being a great rim protector/help defender it would've been a layup line for PGs on most nights.
This is not debatable - I've already given you physical proof of his lack of ability to contest shots and stay in front of his man.
 
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Why are you using metrics :mjpls:
Those aren't metrics (not in the direct sense like DRTG, DRPM, DWS are) - those measure what the individual did. Now obviously like I said in that post, there needs to be context applied - as you do with all stats. But they're certainly a more accurate reading than using shyt like defensive rating or defensive win shares that are heavily influenced directly by teammates on court.

You still think it's blasphemy to suggest Curry was better on that end last season? :mjpls:
 

LV Koopa

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Those aren't metrics (not in the direct sense like DRTG, DRPM, DWS are) - those measure what the individual did. Now obviously like I said in that post, there needs to be context applied - as you do with all stats. But they're certainly a more accurate reading than using shyt like defensive rating or defensive win shares that are heavily influenced directly by teammates on court.

You still think it's blasphemy to suggest Curry was better on that end last season? :mjpls:

I'm not using DWS (trash) and no one is gonna use individual DRTG without weighing it versus minutes and the team overall DRTG. DRPM is a good indicator if it's regressed (ESPN does this now) and I also use WP and lineup data when I can find it.

Curry was aight. He's no CP3 though.
 

Jplaya2023

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Chris Paul might not be what he used to be defensively (he's undersized at his own position), but i don't see how anyone who watches basketball would ever craft an argument of steph curry being better defensively. That's asinine
 
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So metrics aren't a good foundation but you've used them to try and prove Chris Paul isn't an elite defender? :jbhmm:
The stats I used in the OP and throughout this season give a more accurate reading - not perfect - but certainly more accurate. You can't use defensive metrics as foundation like DRTG/DWS when measuring a player's defensive impact, especially ones who aren't anchors.
Can you actually mathematically explain why these aren't good? Since I have a background in stats and sports betting I'm sure you'll set me straight.
  • The plague of multicollinearity
  • The variance and ability in team defensive anchors and scheme throughout the league (not one situation is the same for any guard playing starters minutes)
  • The defensive workload and defensive distance traveled/speed per defensive possession (dependent on scheme and personnel, especially for PGs)
  • Inability to determine who has the most defensive impact on any play due to all players on court being equally rewarded (not all metrics, but most)
  • Too box score dependent, while undervaluing other area
  • Strict formulas not allowing for basketball play variables and outliers
But Chris Paul actually rates higher than Mbah, and even before he was on the team CP3s ratings were high :russ:
:merchant:

Rates higher on what metric? And you really going to sit there and suggest that CP has had more defensive impact this season?


But this doesn't mean he's a bad defender, it means he can't contest shots well which is obvious when he's 6'0.
Yes it does actually, because it doesn't measure your effectiveness of contesting shots but just your activity of actually contesting the shot. Not is/was he bad at contesting shots (size has nothing to do with it as you can still actively contests shots if you're of short statue - being short doesn't take away your ability to contest shots, especially if you are guarding players that are of similar height - which CP is typically doing), but he was also bad at keeping in front of his man too -

77th among PGs in Keep-in-Front% at 29.7 - "Keep-In-Front% tracks a defender’s ability to keep his man in front of him following on-ball screens, during help attempts, on one-on-one drive attempts, and on closeout attempts."

However, a closer look at Paul’s numbers show that it’s not just on-ball screens where the point guard is having trouble keeping his man between him and the basket. His Keep-in-Front Drive% was just 35.9 percent on the season. In comparison, the Boston Celtics’ stalwart young defensive unit of Marcus Smart and Avery Bradley had Keep-in-Front%’s of 53.8 and 50.8, respectively.

Not matter which way you try to spin it, that isn't the mark of an great defensive guard.
What about all his PnR defense,
See above re: on-ball screens. He was poor in that department (more inconsistent than anything else - picking and choosing when to play defense).
elite steals without gambling and breaking the defense,
That's exactly how CP has managed to keep up this facade for so long - gambling. Because he sure as hell isn't great at many other aspects of defense.
picking up transition, bumping cutters - all stuff you don't need stats to see? Funny how metrics are useful to you now :mjlol:
Those aren't metrics, not in the APBR sense - they single out an individual's defensive impact during a particular play: Keep-in-front%, contest rate, defending ISO/ball-handler/off-screen/spot-up attempts. While they certainly aren't perfect (no defensive stat is), they give you a more accurate reading.

:stopitslime:


You going to show the videos where CP3 murdered Lillard this year too?
Before we get into that, care to explain why such a "great" defender looked so bad during that series? I bet you were of the belief that Lillard's low FG% was down to Paul's defense during that series weren't you?

:mjpls:
 
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Chris Paul might not be what he used to be defensively (he's undersized at his own position), but i don't see how anyone who watches basketball would ever craft an argument of steph curry being better defensively. That's asinine
These are his individual defensive stats from last season:

xpj3PqO.png

He defended more ISO plays than any other guard (4th overall in the league) while holding them to 0.7 PPP and 34% shooting.
Uo8QRcV.png

Look at Curry's numbers and then look at Paul's in this graphic, when guarding ball handlers.

Spot up defense - 206 attempts, holding matchups to 33% shooting - 68% percentile

Off screen defense - 53 attempts, holding matchups to 34% shooting - 74% percentile

He also was a top-10 guard (not just PGs) in Keep-in-front% and contesting shot rate.


Curry was one of, if not the best PG (also one of the best out of all positions) when defending ISO, PnR ball-handler, spot up and off screen plays last season - not just one of these areas but ALL OF THEM. Now obviously there needs to be some context applied to all these (game situation, matchups, scheme and help defender deterrence), but you don't rate as highly as Curry did in ALL these defensive situations by being a trash defender.

Take your L and NEVER speak of this again.

:birdman:
See graphics and bold.

He was better than CP in just about all those situations (not to mention he had a bigger defensive workload), as well as leading the league in steals.

Not so "asinine" after all is it? :francis:
 

Emoryal

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Last season he certainly had more defensive impact -

See graphics and bold.

He was better than CP in just about all those situations (not to mention he had a bigger defensive workload), as well as leading the league in steals. @LV Koopa can check this out too since he seems to think it's blasphemy to suggest Curry was better last season on the defensive end.

:manny:
Curry had a bigger workload LAST YEAR? This year, maybe. But there is no way Curry had bigger defensive assignments last year. You're coughing up bullshyt son.
 
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I'm not using DWS (trash) and no one is gonna use individual DRTG without weighing it versus minutes and the team overall DRTG. DRPM is a good indicator if it's regressed (ESPN does this now) and I also use WP and lineup data when I can find it.

Curry was aight. He's no CP3 though.
DRPM and Wins produced? You can't be serious.... :merchant:

For somebody that has a background in stats, I find it hard to believe you'd fall for basketball quackery. Trying to break down an individual's defensive worth is far more clearer if you look at actual INDIVIDUAL BASED numbers.
 
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Curry had a bigger workout LAST YEAR? This year maybe. But there is no way Curry had bigger defensive assignments last year. You're coughing up bullshyt son.
i) Look at the graphics I gave
ii) Curry defended more shots/direct possessions than CP did last season
iii) Curry traveled more distance on defense and averaged a higher defensive speed than CP did last season (Curry was actually 16th in the league in avg defensive miles traveled).
 

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I'm glad somebody else can see it. :manny:
I am watching the games again. I got league pass and my fiance is a Basketball junkie. I said it before but seriously, I can talk to someone from the Wizards to see if you can get a job with them. If you can be humble which is key for a Black person, you can make it far in this industry. You and Motlife. Seriously, I know I am really good but your great. You just need to use it. What's your credentials? You need them to get in the door but most lack the talent.
 
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