Isiah Thomas disputes Michael Jordan's GOAT status, says LeBron and Kevin would've dominated on 80s

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It’s always funny reading old players quotes talking about the zone and expansion.

Rodman also said the Bulls would have went 50-0 in the ‘99 season.
IF ZONE DEFENSES COME IN, STARS MAY GO OUT



The subject was defense in the NBA, and Michael Jordan was speaking, although more about offense, especially his. We know few defenses could do anything about that.

But there was one that might be bothersome, the zone defense. It was the topic du jour at last month's All-Star Game, and Jordan was making an impassioned plea before the competition committee that had gathered to consider rules changes to enliven the NBA game. Jordan spoke passionately. If teams were able to play zone defenses, he said, he never would have had the career he did.

So now, perhaps the Michael Jordan era finally is over. A select committee on rules recommended last week that the NBA eliminate illegal-defense guidelines, which effectively would allow teams to play any defense, including a zone. The proposals also include a defensive three-second rule to prevent teams from stationing a big center, like Dikembe Mutombo, at the basket all game.

Other recommendations: reducing from 10 seconds to eight seconds the time required for the ball to be advanced to the frontcourt, limiting fouls on incidental contact and allowing the ball to be touched while on the rim, as it is in international play. The league's board of governors is expected to endorse the recommendations in April and put them into use for next season.

And it could lead to a startling change in the NBA game.

Which is what the league is hoping for with scoring stuck at historic lows of 94.6 points per team per game this season on 44.2 percent shooting.

As Casey Stengel might have said, "Can't anybody here play this game?"

Not based on the way it has looked in recent years with poor shooting and decreased movement making for a less appealing product. Some blame that for declines in TV ratings and attendance. The committee's recommendations are a response to those concerns.

The elimination of illegal-defense guidelines, which have been a staple of NBA play for the last 50 years, may rank as one of the major changes in the history of the pro game.

It is a daring experiment that proponents say will return classic basketball--cutting, passing and better shooting. Opponents say scores will plummet further and the individual stars of the game, such as Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant, will be neutralized.

And that was Jordan's argument: He believed that allowing any defense, or a zone, enables teams to gang up on the star. Gone will be the highlight-show moves and plays, the ESPN-ization of the game that others contend has been detrimental to sound play.

The NBA historically has been a man-to-man-defense league that encouraged great individual play.

But as coaches, like Hubie Brown in the 1970s, began to devise defenses to help out, the NBA instituted a series of defense rules that began to look like the Internal Revenue Service code. There was good reason for each of them, but when combined they made little sense.

So games often are spent with players pointing to lines on the court where a player is supposed to be or isn't.

Actually, many of the illegal-defense rules were designed to aid the centers, like Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who were being smothered in the post area.

But the result has become a slower, unappealing setup game in which the ball is dropped into the post while the post player works with another player and three players stand around and watch.

See: New York Knicks, Miami Heat, et al.

No more, say the rules poohbahs. It's time to return to basketball.

The change is not just a present for players like Steve Kerr, Bryce Drew and Trajan Langdon, who are primarily perimeter shooters. It's more of a statement to all players that they should learn the fundamentals of the game--to shoot the ball, pass and move without the ball.

One early victim would seem to be Shaquille O'Neal, perhaps the only true low-post center left in the NBA. Elimination of illegal-defense rules would allow teams to gang up on him and force the ball outside, a sort of Shaq Rules.

But coaches such as Miami's Pat Riley, who long has relied on a two-man post-up game, say times are changing.

"I think the philosophy now is about versatility, quickness, mobility, stretching the game," Riley said. "The philosophy has transcended getting a big man.

"This is the game of the 21st Century."

A game played by Milwaukee, Dallas, Sacramento and Orlando, perimeter teams who are now four of the top-five-scoring teams in the NBA.

Although those teams don't have anyone like Jordan, they are fun to watch. And that's what the NBA is hoping will happen to all its teams.
 

ISO

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It's the mental toughness.Jordan just had a stronger will than Bron/KD.I love KD.I think he's definitely a top 2-3 scorer of all time,

but his proverbial shoulders are weak.Same for Bron.It was a different culture back then.You couldn't go out in free agency and

stack the deck like Bron & KD did to get their rings.Replace Bron with Magic on the '91 Lakers, Mike still wins.Replace KD with

with Clyde Drexler on the '92 Blazers, yeah...Putting my money on Mike.Replace Charles Barkley on the '93 Suns with either KD

or Bron...Mike still gone get em:francis:
Those teams weren’t good enough. They didn’t have a second wheel as good as Pip.

The Suns? At the time that was the worst defense to make a Finals. I do know KD and LeBron wouldn’t be buddy buddy with MJ like Barkley was in that series.

:mjlol:

Put prime KD on the ‘96 Sonics his organization and tell me MJ who shot 41% in that series is coming out alive?

Put a prime LeBron on the ‘92 Cavs with Mark, Price, Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance and ‘em. That’s a war in the Eastern Conference.

Let’s put D-Wade on the ‘97 Heat :mjpls:
 
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Primetime

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But this isn’t what happened :skip: y’all stay with this if was a 5th non sense

Jordan did his thing in his era , and if he played in today’s game with the spacing weak ass touch fouls and no rim protection he’d still dominate.unless you think Robert Covington,Arizas or Otto porters of the nba will stop him
The fukk? :mjlol:
Nyggas do the same what-if shyt with Jordan.

If the nygga MJ played in this era or dat ers, he'd _________.

Well that's not what happened :stopitslime:


We dont know what he'd do in this era anymore than what KD or Bron would do in the 80s or 90s, but if we gon speculate then nyggas gon have to attempt putting they stan shyt aside and be objective.

So since the 90s Bulls never faced the 86 Celtics or 87 Lakers or 2001 Lakers or 2017 Warriors, fukk else we gon do in a discussion board but talk what if?
 

Primetime

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They don't have to stop him.

Jordan in 2020 wouldnt be "shut down by Covington" or "dominating everyone"

He would still be elite. But the league has caught up some since 1987.

Why is this such an outrageous concept for some of you?

+1

Robert Covington ain't stopping Jordan anymore than John Starks and his "hand checking" is stopping KD in the 90s.

I don't know why that even became a talking point
 

god shamgod

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The fukk? :mjlol:
Nyggas do the same what-if shyt with Jordan.

If the nygga MJ played in this era or dat ers, he'd _________.

Well that's not what happened :stopitslime:


We dont know what he'd do in this era anymore than what KD or Bron would do in the 80s or 90s, but if we gon speculate then nyggas gon have to attempt putting they stan shyt aside and be objective.

So since the 90s Bulls never faced the 86 Celtics or 87 Lakers or 2001 Lakers or 2017 Warriors, fukk else we gon do in a discussion board but talk what if?

y’all can waste your time doing that “who would win the ‘01 lakers vs the ‘96 bulls” hypothetical non sense.
 

FS4LFE

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Funny how all the Pistons are LeBrons biggest fans:beli:
Well seeing as they actually played in the era and were elite players. I think their opinion holds more weight than the average Coli poster. Bias or not.
 
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Those teams weren’t good enough. They didn’t have a second wheel as good as Pip.

The Suns? At the time that was the worst defense to make a Finals. I do know KD and LeBron wouldn’t be buddy buddy with MJ like Barkley was in that series.

:mjlol:

Put prime KD on the ‘96 Sonics his organization and tell me MJ who shot 41% in that series is coming out alive?

Put a prime LeBron on the ‘92 Cavs with Mark, Price, Ron Harper, Brad Daugherty, Larry Nance and ‘em. That’s a war in the Eastern Conference.

If you replaced Barkley with KD or Bron, that would make the Suns a better defensive team.Chuck wasn't trying to play man

to man or rotate.He only cared about the occasional weakside/chase down block.I think KD's underrated as a defender..

Or say you flip flop Pippen/Kemp in '96.You'd have Payton & Pippen vs Mike & Kemp? I'm still taking the Bulls in that series.

And that '92 Cavs team would be crazy.Mark Price, Ron Harper, Brad Daugherty, and Larry Nance where all All Star level players

back then.You add Bron, it's definitely going to be a war.End of the 80's/early 90's, teams wasn't stacking the deck like that, tho.

That's why I replaced one of the stars from those teams with Bron/KD.That's most likely how their teams would've been built back

then.It's almost unfair when you do it the other way.Say you replace Duncan or Tony Parker in the '13 Finals with MJ?There's no way

the heat are winning that title.Replace Steph with MJ in '16? Not only do the Cavs lose, but I don't think it goes beyond 5-6 games.I guess

people will just say Pippen was MJ's cheat code, but I don't think Pip was that level of a player.He was the perfect compliment to Mike,

but I think he would've been a 2nd-3rd option on most of the good teams back then.Say he was on the late 90's Jazz.He'd be the 3rd

option behind Malone & Stockton.The Suns, behind Barkley & Kevin Johnson.I think Pip is one of the GOAT complimentary pieces, but he

wasn't a dominant franchise changer.Kinda like Klay on the Warriors.Plays his role to perfection and compliments their star players.Which

in turn makes him a star
 

ISO

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but I don't think Pip was that level of a player
How many guys in the 90's had a player who could get you 18-22 points, 6-8 rebounds, 6-8 assists, 2-3 steals, 1-2 blocks and take on the main defensive assignment on any given night? :francis:

Mike retires, Scottie becomes a number one option wins 55 games and goes to the ECSF.

I'm a Knicks fan, I wish Ewing had that. Nah, he had John Starks. :scust:
 

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All stanning, agendas, hate aside what exactly is the argument against a 6'9, 250, top 1% athlete with a top 1% IQ dominating an era without zones where he's as big as if not bigger than most bigs as far as weight? What exactly was the late 80s, early 90s NBA gonna do with a 6'10 guy with an automatic J all the way out to 30 feet who is also as big or bigger than most bigs as far as weight? KD isn't know as an athlete but how many guys during that time were more athletict than him...and how many were 6'10 without shoes? Handchecking would certianly have an impact (see:2005) however it didn't stop inferior players from putting up numbers...go check 6'5, 210, dominant in the post, Adrian Dantley's stats from the 80s and then tell me what Bron or KD wouldn't do.

The hardest part of discussions like these is you are comparing myths to men. We are comparing shyt we saw through rose colored glasses and some shyt many of us didn't even see to shyt we see with all the knowledge, understanding, and bitterness/agendas that come with being an adult. We all grew up on Mike, he was a living legend. Most of us didn't see his struggles or the league prior to his dominance. As kids, we took the likes of the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Jazz seriously when in reality the likes of the pre-Kawhi Raptors or CP3 Clips were head and shoulders over those teams. I say that to say, Zeke, Lambeer and the other Pistons (or other old heads) didn't view Mike like we do. Not only did they not grow up on "Like Mike" commercials they were kicking his ass...he was little brother to them. No matter what you do, you will always be little brother to a big brother. So they may have kinda the opposite thing going on...difference of course being their basketball knowledge/experience shyts all over ours. That doesn't mean we can't disagree though.

Also there is the fundamental attribution error. Mike's getting his ass kicked by the Pistons and Celtics wasnt' a result of him not having heart or not being a winner, he just didn't have enough help. Conversely the 6 rings was the result of his indomininable will and GOATness and had nothing to do with expansion and having by far the best running mate and coach and amazing injury luck. I understand this thought process all too well, because I used to have it. Mike is better than Bron and KD, as an individual basketball player....he also had it better than them in regards to things outside of his control during his prime. The latter doesn't take away from the former and if you think it does, maybe thou art protesting too much and you aren't as sold on MJ being GOAT as you say.
 

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All stanning, agendas, hate aside what exactly is the argument against a 6'9, 250, top 1% athlete with a top 1% IQ dominating an era without zones where he's as big as if not bigger than most bigs as far as weight? What exactly was the late 80s, early 90s NBA gonna do with a 6'10 guy with an automatic J all the way out to 30 feet who is also as big or bigger than most bigs as far as weight? KD isn't know as an athlete but how many guys during that time were more athletict than him...and how many were 6'10 without shoes? Handchecking would certianly have an impact (see:2005) however it didn't stop inferior players from putting up numbers...go check 6'5, 210, dominant in the post, Adrian Dantley's stats from the 80s and then tell me what Bron or KD wouldn't do.

The hardest part of discussions like these is you are comparing myths to men. We are comparing shyt we saw through rose colored glasses and some shyt many of us didn't even see to shyt we see with all the knowledge, understanding, and bitterness/agendas that come with being an adult. We all grew up on Mike, he was a living legend. Most of us didn't see his struggles or the league prior to his dominance. As kids, we took the likes of the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Jazz seriously when in reality the likes of the pre-Kawhi Raptors or CP3 Clips were head and shoulders over those teams. I say that to say, Zeke, Lambeer and the other Pistons (or other old heads) didn't view Mike like we do. Not only did they not grow up on "Like Mike" commercials they were kicking his ass...he was little brother to them. No matter what you do, you will always be little brother to a big brother. So they may have kinda the opposite thing going on...difference of course being their basketball knowledge/experience shyts all over ours. That doesn't mean we can't disagree though.

Also there is the fundamental attribution error. Mike's getting his ass kicked by the Pistons and Celtics wasnt' a result of him not having heart or not being a winner, he just didn't have enough help. Conversely the 6 rings was the result of his indomininable will and GOATness and had nothing to do with expansion and having by far the best running mate and coach and amazing injury luck. I understand this thought process all too well, because I used to have it. Mike is better than Bron and KD, as an individual basketball player....he also had it better than them in regards to things outside of his control during his prime. The latter doesn't take away from the former and if you think it does, maybe thou art protesting too much and you aren't as sold on MJ being GOAT as you say.
I agree with most of this post.
It's fairly reasonable.

:ehh:
 

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I feel like this is a good reminder that no matter who you are your take on the GOAT will have same sort of bias so its really just important to appreciate the skill set of each all-time great player we get to watch. Bron, Jordan, KD, Kobe, Wilt, etc will eat in any era under any set of rules because they're top 1% to ever play the game. fukk a GOAT, just appreciate greatness in all its forms
Draymond would lock wilt up

:skip:
 

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What Jordan has done vs hypotheticals :ehh:
Is that what these things always boil down to :comeon:

The very basis of a comparison between people that didn't play at the same time is hypothetical. That's what makes sports discussion fun. The thing is, if you are truly the GOAT, you should be able to stand up to the hypotheticals or whatever other scrutiny. Mike does, so I'm not sure why people get so tight about it :manny:.
 

eastside313

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All stanning, agendas, hate aside what exactly is the argument against a 6'9, 250, top 1% athlete with a top 1% IQ dominating an era without zones where he's as big as if not bigger than most bigs as far as weight? What exactly was the late 80s, early 90s NBA gonna do with a 6'10 guy with an automatic J all the way out to 30 feet who is also as big or bigger than most bigs as far as weight? KD isn't know as an athlete but how many guys during that time were more athletict than him...and how many were 6'10 without shoes? Handchecking would certianly have an impact (see:2005) however it didn't stop inferior players from putting up numbers...go check 6'5, 210, dominant in the post, Adrian Dantley's stats from the 80s and then tell me what Bron or KD wouldn't do.

The hardest part of discussions like these is you are comparing myths to men. We are comparing shyt we saw through rose colored glasses and some shyt many of us didn't even see to shyt we see with all the knowledge, understanding, and bitterness/agendas that come with being an adult. We all grew up on Mike, he was a living legend. Most of us didn't see his struggles or the league prior to his dominance. As kids, we took the likes of the Knicks, Pacers, Suns, Jazz seriously when in reality the likes of the pre-Kawhi Raptors or CP3 Clips were head and shoulders over those teams. I say that to say, Zeke, Lambeer and the other Pistons (or other old heads) didn't view Mike like we do. Not only did they not grow up on "Like Mike" commercials they were kicking his ass...he was little brother to them. No matter what you do, you will always be little brother to a big brother. So they may have kinda the opposite thing going on...difference of course being their basketball knowledge/experience shyts all over ours. That doesn't mean we can't disagree though.

Also there is the fundamental attribution error. Mike's getting his ass kicked by the Pistons and Celtics wasnt' a result of him not having heart or not being a winner, he just didn't have enough help. Conversely the 6 rings was the result of his indomininable will and GOATness and had nothing to do with expansion and having by far the best running mate and coach and amazing injury luck. I understand this thought process all too well, because I used to have it. Mike is better than Bron and KD, as an individual basketball player....he also had it better than them in regards to things outside of his control during his prime. The latter doesn't take away from the former and if you think it does, maybe thou art protesting too much and you aren't as sold on MJ being GOAT as you say.
I hope you didn’t just call AD a inferior player.


As a old head detroiter i definitely wasn’t jocking Jordan. Still don’t and i didn’t start wearing Jordans until i was grown.
 

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I hope you didn’t just call AD a inferior player.


As a old head detroiter i definitely wasn’t jocking Jordan. Still don’t and i didn’t start wearing Jordans until i was grown.

He is inferior to Bron and KD.

My brother was the biggest Mike hater ever, but his ass was skipping class in HS to get them new Js though :russ:.
 
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